Financial Fair Play discussion

moomba

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Don't know why you're so horrified of the all the facts coming out in a court case then.

Surely if we're cheating so much we'll be shown up in court and penalised accordingly.
 

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Zidane98

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Don't know why you're so horrified of the all the facts coming out in a court case then.

Surely if we're cheating so much we'll be shown up in court and penalised accordingly.
If you weren't cheating you wouldn't have been penalised in the first place. Sporting decisions have no place in a court, unlikely any judge would even consider hearing it as it totally undermines any decision a sporting body makes. IMO City would be laughed at if they tried to appeal a penalty in a court of law.
 

moomba

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If you weren't cheating you wouldn't have been penalised in the first place. Sporting decisions have no place in a court, unlikely any judge would even consider hearing it as it totally undermines any decision a sporting body makes. IMO City would be laughed at if they tried to appeal a penalty in a court of law.
As you say, we've been punished. And we didn't take it further so we just have to accept that.

But you want us punished further, so surely you've got to prove we've done something against the rules.

Gut feeling, suspicion and just plain wanting it to happen isn't proof. So let's see UEFA investigate, if they do hopefully they'll make a case and then we'll see if I'm right or you are.

BTW, if Suarez didn't racially abuse Evra he wouldn't have been penalised for it. Am I right?
 

Zidane98

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As you say, we've been punished. And we didn't take it further so we just have to accept that.

But you want us punished further, so surely you've got to prove we've done something against the rules.

Gut feeling, suspicion and just plain wanting it to happen isn't proof. So let's see UEFA investigate, if they do hopefully they'll make a case and then we'll see if I'm right or you are.

BTW, if Suarez didn't racially abuse Evra he wouldn't have been penalised for it. Am I right?
Standard deflection, most reasonable fans want City penalised because of the attitude that your club doesn't seem to think FFP rules apply to it and deliberately present inflated commercial income figures that in reality are just largely funded by your owner. A systematic form of cheating that you continually condone and defend.

Btw surprising to hear you claim that John Terry isnt guilty of racially abusing Anton Ferdinand going by your deluded logic that because he was cleared in a court of law it couldn't of happened. Really surprised to hear that coming from you.
 

moomba

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Btw surprising to hear you claim that John Terry isnt guilty of racially abusing Anton Ferdinand going by your deluded logic that because he was cleared in a court of law it couldn't of happened. Really surprised to hear that coming from you.
Very surprising to hear me claim that because I never did. What I did do is point out the absurdity of your "you were punished so you must have done it", and how you don't apply that rule when it suits.

The fact that what you've read has convinced you that we deliberately presented artificially inflated commercial deals funded by our owner is exactly why Der Spiegel isn't a reliable source of evidence.

And probably why UEFA aren't rushing to investigate with the same desperation as you. They may well be looking, but they'll need a little more evidence than Der Spiegel.
 

Zidane98

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Very surprising to hear me claim that because I never did. What I did do is point out the absurdity of your "you were punished so you must have done it", and how you don't apply that rule when it suits.

The fact that what you've read has convinced you that we deliberately presented artificially inflated commercial deals funded by our owner is exactly why Der Spiegel isn't a reliable source of evidence.

And probably why UEFA aren't rushing to investigate with the same desperation as you. They may well be looking, but they'll need a little more evidence than Der Spiegel.
Literally in your previous post you claimed that if there was evidence of guilt it would come up in any supposed court case. So yes you have claimed that Terry is innocent because of the fact he was cleared in a criminal court. You can't have it both ways.
 

ADL9798

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The “we’re not denying the content of the e-mails but so what, they were illegally acquired” defence sounds an awful lot like “the video of me murdering my wife was illegally hacked off my laptop, doesn’t matter that I’m 100% guilty, I can’t be charged”.

Assuming these e-mails aren’t forgeries (and you’d think if they were the City PR machine would’ve blown them out of the water by now), it’s extremely frustrating for fans of other clubs that there’s a distinct possibility the systematic cheating of rules everyone signed up to and agreed to abide by will go unpunished based on a technicality.
 
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Magma

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uefa are scared of ffp being pulled apart in the courts. hence why the punishment we got was settled, and why ffp has since loosened. uefa still have to answer to eu laws.
 

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Zidane98

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moomba

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The Struani case hasn't been won or lost. It was sent back to European Court of Justice on procedural grounds back in 2015 as the Belgium Court weren't sure whether or not they had jurisdiction.

The European.Ccourt of Justice subsequently ruled that they did and the case was reheard in Belgium last month.
 

moomba

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The “we’re not denying the content of the e-mails but so what, they were illegally acquired” defence sounds an awful lot like “the video of me murdering my wife was illegally hacked off my laptop, doesn’t matter that I’m 100% guilty, I can’t be charged”.
More like being taken to court because a newspaper wrote a story saying that you murdered your wife.

It might cause the authorities to investigate but they won't go to court without actual evidence.

My frustration with Der Spiegel articles is that they are written in a way that leads the reader to presume a rule has been broken. Without necessarily addressing the rule itself, or providing full context.

An example, one of their leaks was a contract with NAC which Der Spiegel reproduced which to me suggested we had a form of third party ownership of their players.

I wrote in this thread that I thought we could be in trouble over that.

But it turns out one of the clauses in the contract that wasn't printed (or wasn't hacked) specifically refers to compliance with UEFA rules on third party ownership. It changes the whole context of the piece that they wrote

You can even look at how many people have assumed that Mansour is topping up sponsorships based on how Der Spiegel and other media have reported things.

That's why I think we need all the facts out in the open. If that leads to punishment so be it.

And while people might be frustrated I think a lot are making the judgement that Der Spiegel have led them to mske.
 
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Zidane98

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it could it, it might not be. but if uefa were so confident then surely they would've smashed us back then
If they were aware of his highness money laundering back then between his own holding company and your sponsors I suspect the punsihment would have been much more severe. You presented books claiming commercial income that wasn't actually commercial income which is in effect fraud (if the documents that have leaked are indeed authentic).
 

Magma

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If they were aware of his highness money laundering back then between his own holding company and your sponsors I suspect the punsihment would have been much more severe. You presented books claiming commercial income that wasn't actually commercial income which is in effect fraud (if the documents that have leaked are indeed authentic).
possibly. but i think also uefa themselves dont want to be investigated due to what might be found about them and their money.
 

moomba

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If they were aware of his highness money laundering back then between his own holding company and your sponsors I suspect the punsihment would have been much more severe. You presented books claiming commercial income that wasn't actually commercial income which is in effect fraud (if the documents that have leaked are indeed authentic).
A few points.

First, his highness isn't necessarily Mansour. That's an assumption you've made.

Second, the money we got from Etihad, Aabar, Etisalat etc was commercial income no matter how they ultimately funded the payments.

There are contracts and those companies are obliged to make those payments. It has to be declared as income. Imagine telling HMRC that "we got the money in our account, but it was all a bit wink, wink, nudge, nudge so we didn't declare it and won't bother paying tax if that's ok.

Thirdly an owner or related party sponsoring a club is not a breach of FFP. It's a common misconception. UEFA assessed Etihad as fair market value. They said that the second tier sponsorships were ok, but we agreed not to increase them.on future returns. To UEFA, once they've agreed fair market value it simply doesn't matter where those sponsorships came from and how they were paid.
 

moomba

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Moomba is definitely on City’s payroll. If not, then he should be!
Once again, you contribute nothing to the discussion other than making a snide dig at me.

I wonder if it's only in BF-World that saying that you hope your club gets charged, goes to court and if found guilty is punished is somehow seen as a defence of a club.

If we're in the wrong as many believe, you've got nothing to fear.
 

moomba

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You would be if this great game wasn't run by corrupt *******s
The funny thing with people moaning about us breaking the rules, is that don't seem to know or care if we've broken an actual rule or not. They just want us punished.

If UEFA can prove we've broken a rule, then I'm all for us to be punished. Getting kicked out of the Champions League is infinitely better than all the pissing and moaning.
 

WealstoneRaider

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Once again, you contribute nothing to the discussion other than making a snide dig at me.

I wonder if it's only in BF-World that saying that you hope your club gets charged, goes to court and if found guilty is punished is somehow seen as a defence of a club.

If we're in the wrong as many believe, you've got nothing to fear.
“Only in the BF world”? Come on literally everyone is of the opinion City are fixers, proving it conclusively is the problem though. If OJ Simpson can get away with murder...

Anyway, take my comment as a compliment as it was intended. You are pretty savvy on your legal knowledge. Certainly to someone like me who’s a bit of a novice.
 
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