Financial Fair Play discussion

moomba

TheBrownDog
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A recommendation isnt a decision. So no they would not have cleared you.
The investigatory panel has the power to clear a club. They don't have the power to issue suspensions.

So if their recommendation was that we've done nothing wrong then they would simply clear us.

Although that would also indicate that they had considered our argument, so the grounds for appeal to CAS wouldn't be there.

But it's a bizarre argument because who in the world would appeal a decision that comes down in their favour, no matter how it was reached.
 

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Zidane98

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The investigatory panel has the power to clear a club. They don't have the power to issue suspensions.

So if their recommendation was that we've done nothing wrong then they would simply clear us.

Although that would also indicate that they had considered our argument, so the grounds for appeal to CAS wouldn't be there.

But it's a bizarre argument because who in the world would appeal a decision that comes down in their favour, no matter how it was reached.
Again no decision has been made if a recommendation only has been made.

Adjudictory is independent and could decide against the recommendations of the investigatory chamber.

It seeks silly to appeal against a decision that has not even been made yet. You keep harping on like a recommendation is a decision. It simply isnt.
 

moomba

TheBrownDog
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Again no decision has been made if a recommendation only has been made.

Adjudictory is independent and could decide against the recommendations of the investigatory chamber.

It seeks silly to appeal against a decision that has not even been made yet. You keep harping on like a recommendation is a decision. It simply isnt.
Oh boy.

The options available to the Investigatory panel are to:

- dismiss the case
- settle the case with the consent of the defendant
- issue punishment (warning, reprimand or fine) with the consent of the defendant
- refer the case to the adjudicatory chamber

A decision has been made by the investigatory chamber, and if due process wasn't followed then it certainly is subject to review.

FWIW I wouldn't have a clue whether due process has been followed or not. Certainly there has been plenty of leaks from the UEFA side, primarily to the New York Times. And the language from our side has strongly hinted at the lack of due process from the day we were referred.
 

moomba

TheBrownDog
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Common sense really, bizarre to dispute a referral at the CAS.
CAS will find in favour of UEFA and we'll be back where we are now.

Or they'll find in favour of us and that will be that.

From a business perspective there's nothing to lose.

But you think it's laughable that an investigatory body consider evidence submitted by the defence before issuing a punishment so it's not surprising you find this bizarre.
 

Zidane98

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CAS will find in favour of UEFA and we'll be back where we are now.

Or they'll find in favour of us and that will be that.

From a business perspective there's nothing to lose.

But you think it's laughable that an investigatory body consider evidence submitted by the defence before issuing a punishment so it's not surprising you find this bizarre.
I would have a serious issue with a punishment being handed down without consideration from both parties.

Hence thr correct decision by the investigatory chamber to refer the case to the adjudictory chamber for independent investigation.
 

moomba

TheBrownDog
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In your own post you laughed at the idea that the Investigatory chamber should consider evidence submitted by us before deciding if we should be punished.

The whole point of the Investigatory chamber is to carry out an independent investigation. You have to wonder if they can decide to dismiss some cases, settle some cases or just bump certain cases to the adjudicatory chamber without establishing facts and considering all the available evidence whether the principles of natural justice are being followed.

I would say not. I understand that you don't particularly care about the principles of natural justice when it applies to us, but I think that's going to be the centerpiece of our defence strategy, no matter what the result of this appeal.

Now if they've considered all of our evidence and come to the decision they did then so be it. I don't think we'd have a hope in hell at this stage. We still might not have, but the rhetoric from the club has been pretty consistent that the Investigatory chamber hasn't followed their own processes in reaching the decision they did.
 
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Zidane98

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Considering the independent nature of the adjudictory chamber it was always going to be the most appropriate place to decide if an offence has occurred and what penalty should be handes out.

It wouldnt matter if the investigatory chamber spent 2 months analysising every bit of evidence from City. You still would not accept the decision handed out and by the looks of it your club buys into ridiculous conspiracy theories about UEFA.

I do apologise for wanting your case to go to an independent adjuducator who will assess all evidence from both parites before any punishment is handed out or dismissing the case.

It seems you and your club do not want that scenario to happen for some reason
 

moomba

TheBrownDog
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Considering the independent nature of the adjudictory chamber it was always going to be the most appropriate place to decide if an offence has occurred and what penalty should be handes out.

It wouldnt matter if the investigatory chamber spent 2 months analysising every bit of evidence from City. You still would not accept the decision handed out and by the looks of it your club buys into ridiculous conspiracy theories about UEFA.
I have no problems if the investigatory chamber establishes all the facts, assesses the evidence and decides to refer us to the adjudicatory chamber. As long as due process is followed then I'm happy for this to play out as I've stated on numerous occasions.


I do apologise for wanting your case to go to an independent adjuducator who will assess all evidence from both parites before any punishment is handed out or dismissing the case.

It seems you and your club do not want that scenario to happen for some reason
We've already presented our evidence to an "independent" adjudicator with a distinct role of establishing facts and assessing evidence.

Some find it laughable that independent adjudicator actually considers the evidence we provided before deciding on a punishment (and yes you said punishment so let's forget this guff you're sporting about wanting the evidence assessed and a decision made).
 
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Zidane98

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CAS will find in favour of UEFA and we'll be back where we are now.

Or they'll find in favour of us and that will be that.

From a business perspective there's nothing to lose.

But you think it's laughable that an investigatory body consider evidence submitted by the defence before issuing a punishment so it's not surprising you find this bizarre.
But you havent followed due process. UEFA regulations allow for an appeal at the CAS to punishments only. Seeing how big you are on due process I am surprised that you havent criticised the club for taking something to CAS that cant be appealed there.

Further to this it will be a sad day in football where any club can just stay a decision by appealing at CAS. Not happy with the red card your team received and fail to get it overturned on appeal? Take it to CAS and stay the original decision. You might even get your star player eligible to play in a final that way. It will be an absolute field day for any club to get their way.
 

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moomba

TheBrownDog
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But you havent followed due process. UEFA regulations allow for an appeal at the CAS to punishments only. Seeing how big you are on due process I am surprised that you havent criticised the club for taking something to CAS that cant be appealed there.

Further to this it will be a sad day in football where any club can just stay a decision by appealing at CAS. Not happy with the red card your team received and fail to get it overturned on appeal? Take it to CAS and stay the original decision. You might even get your star player eligible to play in a final that way. It will be an absolute field day for any club to get their way.

Which article.of the CFCB procedural rules prohibits an appeal at this stage of.proceedings?

And its good that you now accept that the referral to adjudicatory chamber is a decision against us. We're getting somewhere finally.
 

Zidane98

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Which article.of the CFCB procedural rules prohibits an appeal at this stage of.proceedings?

And its good that you now accept that the referral to adjudicatory chamber is a decision against us. We're getting somewhere finally.
Article 61 explicity states that CAS can only hear an appeal when all of UEFA's internal procedures have been exhausted.

So City have failed to follow due process by not waiting for the decision of the adjudicatory chamber. That would be the l ast interal UEFA avenue available.

Glad to see we are in agreeance that your club was wrong to appeal the referral.
 

moomba

TheBrownDog
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Article 61 explicity states that CAS can only hear an appeal when all of UEFA's internal procedures have been exhausted.

So City have failed to follow due process by not waiting for the decision of the adjudicatory chamber. That would be the l ast interal UEFA avenue available.

Glad to see we are in agreeance that your club was wrong to appeal the referral.
There is no article 61 of the CFCB procedural rules.

But presuming you're referring to the UEFA statutes there is nothing in article 61 about exhausting all avenues of appeal.

You might be thinking of article 62, and as far as I can see we're fully compliant with that as long as we lodged the appeal within 10 days (not sure if we did or not). The investigatory chamber has made a decision that adversely affects our interests, and there is no further internal avenue of appealling that decision.

So no, I don't agree with you in any way. If we're not entitled to appeal, CAS will rule against us and we'll move on.
 

Zidane98

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There is no article 61 of the CFCB procedural rules.

But presuming you're referring to the UEFA statutes there is nothing in article 61 about exhausting all avenues of appeal.

You might be thinking of article 62, and as far as I can see we're fully compliant with that as long as we lodged the appeal within 10 days (not sure if we did or not). The investigatory chamber has made a decision that adversely affects our interests, and there is no further internal avenue of appealling that decision.

So no, I don't agree with you in any way. If we're not entitled to appeal, CAS will rule against us and we'll move on.
Article 62.4 states (yes these are UEFA's current Statuetes)

An appeal before the CAS may only be brought after UEFA's internal procedures and remedies have been exhausted.


As the dispute has yet to reach the adjudictory chamber UEFA's internal procedures have clearly not yet been exhausted. Once your case has been through the adjudictory chambeer you are then entitled to appeal at CAS.

Pretty black and white and thankyou for confirming that your appeal against the adjudictory referral is absolutely frivolous.

Which begs the question - why?
 

moomba

TheBrownDog
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Article 62.4 states (yes these are UEFA's current Statuetes)

An appeal before the CAS may only be brought after UEFA's internal procedures and remedies have been exhausted.


As the dispute has yet to reach the adjudictory chamber UEFA's internal procedures have clearly not yet been exhausted. Once your case has been through the adjudictory chambeer you are then entitled to appeal at CAS.

Pretty black and white and thankyou for confirming that your appeal against the adjudictory referral is absolutely frivolous.

Which begs the question - why?
Because the decision to refer us to the adjudicatory chamber is final and binding.

Because we believe there were significant procedural flaws made in reaching this decision. One being that the decision was rushed through without considering evidence submitted by us in order to meet the statute of limitations. Something that you and your new fou d passion for procedural fairness don't have a problem with.

The decision adversely affects us, not least being that we occur additional costs defending a case at the adjudicatory chamber.

There is no further internal avenue of appealling against these procedural flaws.

That's why the club has appealed now.

If we win, from a business perspective that's great. If not, we're no worse off than we were before. It's an action I would imagine most clubs would take if they were in the same boat.

I will add that in recent CAS judgements the UEFA position has been that the Investigatory chamber referral is a final and binding decision, and that clubs have the right to appeal it to CAS as long as other procedural requirements are met.
 

Zidane98

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Haha you just cant admit when you are wrong. The investigatory chamber is not the last avenue for UEFA internal procedures. You can dress it up all you want but nothing changes that.

As of right now no punishment has been handed down for your alleged further breach of the rules.

If the adjudictory chamber finds against you then you can bring the case before the CAS. There is every chance they may clear you. Just find it funny you hang your hat on UEFA procedural errors but when your own club is guilty of it you defend it to the nth degree.
 

moomba

TheBrownDog
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Haha you just cant admit when you are wrong. The investigatory chamber is not the last avenue for UEFA internal procedures. You can dress it up all you want but nothing changes that.
I think it is. The adjudicatory chamber won't spend a second investigation procedural flaws by the investigatory chamber. And nor should they, it's not part of their defined purpose. So there is no further avenue of review or appeal within CFCB or UEFA.

As of right now no punishment has been handed down for your alleged further breach of the rules.
There is a cost of defending a case in the adjudicatory chamber. And we could argue that if the investigatory chamber wasn't able to investigate our case in a fair an unbiased manner within the deadlines defined by their procedures then the case should be dismissed.

If the adjudictory chamber finds against you then you can bring the case before the CAS. There is every chance they may clear you. Just find it funny you hang your hat on UEFA procedural errors but when your own club is guilty of it you defend it to the nth degree.
I'm not hanging my hat on anything. We may lose the case, we may win. In legal cases nothing is ever black and white, that's why so many cases are settled.

Reading between the lines of our statements I'm pretty convinced that the club expects a decision by the adjudicatory chamber against us. And if it gets there I'm sure we'll appeal that too.
 

Zidane98

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You’re two grown men aren’t you with grandchildren? Surely one of you are wise enough to realise this constant back and forth is a futile exercise in getting you absolutely nowhere?
Truer words have not been spoken my friend. Time to take a step back - its a bit like arguing with your missus. Even when she is wrong she is right!
 

moomba

TheBrownDog
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You’re two grown men aren’t you with grandchildren? Surely one of you are wise enough to realise this constant back and forth is a futile exercise in getting you absolutely nowhere?
True but it does pass the time, and the legal battle is something I've looked forward to for five years. And I genuinely don"t understand zidanes thought processes when it comes to FFP some time.

But I'll stick to posting updates if and when they happen and leave the legalling to the lawyers.
 

Zidane98

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True but it does pass the time, and the legal battle is something I've looked forward to for five years. And I genuinely don"t understand zidanes thought processes when it comes to FFP some time.

But I'll stick to posting updates if and when they happen and leave the legalling to the lawyers.
I have a pretty straightforward thought process with regards to FFP.

Dont cheat. Should simplify things for you.
 

WealstoneRaider

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I admit to a point I enjoy reading you two go at it on this, but it has kind of reached the point where you are both banging your heads against a brick wall.

Good to get updates on what’s actually happening and lay it down on here so simpletons like me can understand
 

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