Zidane and Moomba's FFP chat.

[moomba]

Are FSG funding LFC sponsorships through related parties? If they are doing that then yes they should because that is cheating.

Don't know if they are or aren't.

But even if they were it's not necessarily against FFP regs.

 

[Zidane98]

Don't know if they are or aren't.

But even if they were it's not necessarily against FFP regs.

Yes it is. Because the company that ADUG funds becomes a related party according to the related party definition of having a significant financial influence. Which results in sponsorship deals being assessed at real market value and a huge difference in the figures previously presented.

I'm starting to see why his highness organises sponsorship deals through related companies in the UAE. He does it so he can freely inflate commercial income and fund it himself through transactions in the UAE that can't be scrutinised.

And nobody in Abu Dhabi will speak up about it as his highness controls the justice system. Any such person in Abu Dhabi is likely to be jailed after a sham trial.

Right now if I was a City fan I would be questioning why Mansour and the club was quite happy to publically boast about how the club was FFP compliant and self sustainable when that is not the case.

 

[Magma]

yeah just hit 100 points last season, on a fantastic run, playing great football, some exceptional players, best manager in the world, but those damn financials really keep me awake at night.

why sheikh why

 

[moomba]

Yes it is. Because the company that ADUG funds becomes a related party according to the related party definition of having a significant financial influence. Which results in sponsorship deals being assessed at real market value and a huge difference in the figures previously presented.

I'm starting to see why his highness organises sponsorship deals through related companies in the UAE. He does it so he can freely inflate commercial income and fund it himself through transactions in the UAE that can't be scrutinised.

And nobody in Abu Dhabi will speak up about it as his highness controls the justice system. Any such person in Abu Dhabi is likely to be jailed after a sham trial.

Right now if I was a City fan I would be questioning why Mansour and the club was quite happy to publically boast about how the club was FFP compliant and self sustainable when that is not the case.

Even if it was deemed a related party transaction, related party transactions do not breach FFP rules.

If Mansour wanted his name across the front of our shirts he would be perfectly within his rights to sponsor the club and pay whatever amount he wants.

UEFA might choose to adjust that figure based on fair market value but that still wouldn't make the sponsorship a breach of FFP regs.

If Conn is correct UEFA didn't have a problem with the Etihad deal, they considered it fair market value. The second tier sponsors were specifically mentioned in the settlement back in 2014 and it's fair to say UEFA okayed those sponsorships without a great deal of enthusiasm.

Even Der Spiegel says that the club is self sustaining now. If Etihad were to leave we'd get a better deal in the market. Arabtec isn't a sponsor, Aabar and Etisalat are small fry.

 

[Zidane98]

Yeah the club is guilty of presenting fabricated financial figures for a FFP audit. That's against the rules as was City's failure to disclose Mansour funding sponsorships himself personally.

As for bring self sustaining now it would be pretty embarrassing if a club couldn't be after its owner had wasted 1.5 billion pounds on it over the last 10 years.

 

[Zidane98]

Might be soon. Court case in Belgium coming up in Feb.

https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/pro...news/newsid=2267061.html?redirectFromOrg=true

 

[moomba]

Yeah the club is guilty of presenting fabricated financial figures for a FFP audit. That's against the rules as was City's failure to disclose Mansour funding sponsorships himself personally.

As for bring self sustaining now it would be pretty embarrassing if a club couldn't be after its owner had wasted 1.5 billion pounds on it over the last 10 years.

You don't know what was presented to UEFA at the time.

 

[Magma]

so der spiegel are a bit on the nose right now...

 

[Latro]

so der spiegel are a bit on the nose right now...

Was the reporter part of the FFP investigations?

 

[Magma]

Was the reporter part of the FFP investigations?

i dont think so no. but it all seems a fair bit of a mess

 

[Zidane98]

i dont think so no. but it all seems a fair bit of a mess

Nothing will happen until the end of the season now anyway. Can't penalise clubs mid competition, that would be unfair even for the 2 clubs caught blatantly cheating.

 

[moomba]

UEFA won't be able to use anything from Der Spiegel unless they provide full copies of all emails, and full details of how they were sourced.

Due diligence and fact checking is obviously a big question mark for Der Spiegel so I doubt UEFA will want to test their info in court.

 

[Zidane98]

UEFA won't be able to use anything from Der Spiegel unless they provide full copies of all emails, and full details of how they were sourced.

Due diligence and fact checking is obviously a big question mark for Der Spiegel so I doubt UEFA will want to test their info in court.

What court case? UEFA can hand down any decision they like. Clubs are unable to take a governing body to court.

The 2 guilty clubs can contest their penalty in the CAS. Quite a few have tried that with AC Milan getting their season ban reduced to a financial penalty. The rest failed. Thankfully footballing decisions aren't able to be challenged in courts by those who have no respect for the rules and those that don't care about wasting tens of millions of pounds on frivilous court action

Something tells me that neither PSG or City will garner much sympathy from a CAS judge with their recent conduct either but they are welcome to try.

We will know more after the season concludes.

 

[moomba]

What court case? UEFA can hand down any decision they like. Clubs are unable to take a governing body to court.

The 2 guilty clubs can contest their penalty in the CAS. Quite a few have tried that with AC Milan getting their season ban reduced to a financial penalty. The rest failed. Thankfully footballing decisions aren't able to be challenged in courts by those who have no respect for the rules and those that don't care about wasting tens of millions of pounds on frivilous court action

Something tells me that neither PSG or City will garner much sympathy from a CAS judge with their recent conduct either but they are welcome to try.

We will know more after the season concludes.

Everything can go to court.

But I suspect a CAS judge won't be impressed with unverified evidence collected without context by a third party being used in a case. Particularly when the third party has a big question mark on the information they produce.

I'm not sure there is any evidence from Der Spiegel that proves a rule has been broken, but if there is I'm pretty sure UEFA won't be relying on it if it goes to CAS or beyond.

What they could do is use the Der Spiegel info as the basis of further questioning. But they'll need evidence from elsewhere I suspect.

 

[Zidane98]

Everything can go to court.

But I suspect a CAS judge won't be impressed with unverified evidence collected without context by a third party being used in a case. Particularly when the third party has a big question mark on the information they produce.

I'm not sure there is any evidence from Der Spiegel that proves a rule has been broken, but if there is I'm pretty sure UEFA won't be relying on it if it goes to CAS or beyond.

What they could do is use the Der Spiegel info as the basis of further questioning. But they'll need evidence from elsewhere I suspect.

Yes, the only avenue of appeal for a club against an association is via the CAS.

UEFA are allowed to hand out what penalty they like though despite your claims to the contrary. CAS decide on whether an appeal should be heard only after all avenues through the UEFA appeals body have been exhausted. Good luck finding sympathy from themtheml or even looking at overturning a UEFA imposed penalty (happens rarely).

I do expect that his highness would fully assist in any investigation and produce all financial information for his holding company ADUG as he has been laundering money through your "sponsors" to the club.
One would have to interpret in failure to cooperate as admission of guilt.

 

[moomba]

Yes, the only avenue of appeal for a club against an association is via the CAS.

UEFA are allowed to hand out what penalty they like though despite your claims to the contrary. CAS decide on whether an appeal should be heard only after all avenues through the UEFA appeals body have been exhausted. Good luck finding sympathy from themtheml or even looking at overturning a UEFA imposed penalty (happens rarely).

I do expect that his highness would fully assist in any investigation and produce all financial information for his holding company ADUG as he has been laundering money through your "sponsors" to the club.
One would have to interpret in failure to cooperate as admission of guilt.

CAS would be the first avenue, it's not the only avenue. But CAS will follow the same rules of law as everyone else.

Unsourced, unverified newspaper articles don't tend to carry a great deal of weight in courts. So UEFA won't be silly enough to hang their hopes on that.

We'll provide the information we're obliged to provide I'm sure. We will have already done so back in 2014.

 

[Zidane98]

CAS would be the first avenue, it's not the only avenue. But CAS will follow the same rules of law as everyone else.

Unsourced, unverified newspaper articles don't tend to carry a great deal of weight in courts. So UEFA won't be silly enough to hang their hopes on that.

We'll provide the information we're obliged to provide I'm sure. We will have already done so back in 2014.

UEFA are able to use any sources they like. I imagine their investigation of City and/or PSG will focus on whether the owners of both clubs are guilty of injecting capital by transferring money to sponsors. That's a serious violation of FFP and unless it was disclosed any penalty will surely be severe.

To me having read much of the documentation from football leaks that much is pretty much beyond doubt. And I don't hear any denials from either City or PSG either which speaks volumes.

But I guess you'll get those who will defend cheating until they are light blue in the face.

 

[Magma]

or hold off until it is actually proven, instead of just what has been said by a newspaper where it has just been discovered they've been making up stories.

 

[moomba]

UEFA are able to use any sources they like. I imagine their investigation of City and/or PSG will focus on whether the owners of both clubs are guilty of injecting capital by transferring money to sponsors. That's a serious violation of FFP and unless it was disclosed any penalty will surely be severe.

To me having read much of the documentation from football leaks that much is pretty much beyond doubt. And I don't hear any denials from either City or PSG either which speaks volumes.

But I guess you'll get those who will defend cheating until they are light blue in the face.

And those that will make a decision without knowing the facts.

Saying that rules of law should be followed is not defending a club. If UEFA can prove we've done something wrong, and do it by providing actual evidence, not hearsay then we won't have much luck in the courts (unless we challenge FFP itself).

 

[Zidane98]

And those that will make a decision without knowing the facts.

Saying that rules of law should be followed is not defending a club. If UEFA can prove we've done something wrong, and do it by providing actual evidence, not hearsay then we won't have much luck in the courts (unless we challenge FFP itself).

UEFA is not a court of law, not sure what is so difficult to understand about that. They are not required to follow the guidelines of court when deciding on penalties. And so it should be that way, otherwise clubs would be taking them to court all the time and they'd never be able to penalise cheating like we have seen from City / PSG.

For those rare occasions when a club still isn't satisfied with an appeal outcome there is the CAS.

 

[Zidane98]

or hold off until it is actually proven, instead of just what has been said by a newspaper where it has just been discovered they've been making up stories.

You suggesting the documents are fake? Neither club is denying that their owners have been funding sponsorship deals through the back door. No denials from both owners. It's been happening.

 

[Magma]

You suggesting the documents are fake? Neither club is denying that their owners have been funding sponsorship deals through the back door. No denials from both owners. It's been happening.

well after what has come out it can't be ruled out until proven otherwise. there has to now be questions about der spiegel's credibility. but if you have a reporter who is willing to make up stories concerning war and then to profit from it, it's not a stretch to believe it's happening in other departments.

 

[Zidane98]

well after what has come out it can't be ruled out until proven otherwise. there has to now be questions about der spiegel's credibility. but if you have a reporter who is willing to make up stories concerning war and then to profit from it, it's not a stretch to believe it's happening in other departments.

Football Leaks were the source of the documents. Not Der Spiegel. They just publicised it. And the actions of one individual don't reflect an entire organisation plus I believe Der Spiegel have taken legal action against the reporter who is no longer an employee.

 

[Magma]

Football Leaks were the source of the documents. Not Der Spiegel. They just publicised it. And the actions of one individual don't reflect an entire organisation plus I believe Der Spiegel have taken legal action against the reporter who is no longer an employee.

so it's okay to accept evidence without anyone else seeing it from a publication that is currently involved in making up stories?

i know you're so desperate to see us get punished but i also dont see anything wrong with questioning the lack of transparency about it. if we get punished for doing something wrong, okay then, sure. but what happens if the investigation comes back as all clear? you can't be saying 'it's been happening' when no one else has actually got the documents, just verbiage from a newspaper.

 

[Zidane98]

so it's okay to accept evidence without anyone else seeing it from a publication that is currently involved in making up stories?

i know you're so desperate to see us get punished but i also dont see anything wrong with questioning the lack of transparency about it. if we get punished for doing something wrong, okay then, sure. but what happens if the investigation comes back as all clear? you can't be saying 'it's been happening' when no one else has actually got the documents, just verbiage from a newspaper.

I know it's difficult for you to understand but Der Spiegel are not the source of the documents that embarrassed both City and PSG.

Football Leaks is the source. And it certainly reeks of desperation to try and pin the actions of one person who isn't even employed by Der Spiegel as representative of the entire organisation.

What happens if the investigation comes back as not all clear? All I hear is that in that case it will be taken to court, it's unfair blah blah blah blah.

I am happy to accept UEFA's decision on this one although some aren't prepared to by the looks of it.