First 22 in 2023

[Nathan Barley]

Whiting said on the last roar deal that Zorko and Rich were looking super fit

If Rich could get back to his 2021 form and Zorko his 2019 form (even with 50% midfield time) it could take us to a new level

 

[Dalions]

Whiting said on the last roar deal that Zorko and Rich were looking super fit

If Rich could get back to his 2021 form and Zorko his 2019 form (even with 50% midfield time) it could take us to a new level

If Zorko can get back to the defensive pressure of 2019 then I would be happy.
He was fantastic in that area in 18 and 19.

 

[briztoon]

I wonder if Whiting has been to any training sessions or spoke to anyone of note from the club as it would appear unfortunately for Adams he is still suffering from his concussion. Unless his symptoms alleviate very early in the new year, he won't be playing in round 1, or possibly the year. So for that reason I have Gardiner in for the first few rounds, but if Marcus can come good, have him replacing Gardiner at some stage in 2023. Not that stats: are all that useful in isolation, but Adams and a developing Payne IMO are arguably ahead of Darcy's form re the past couple of years.

If Rich has an ordinary first few games and McKenna is fit and playing well in the trials and the 2's, then for me Wilmot across the halfback line with Payne and Coleman and McKenna onto the bench.

First four rounds are challenging and then it becomes a fair bit easier (based on 2022). With our strong list, I don't think we should just allow some seasoned players to find form against weaker opposition. Players like Lyons (if fit), Answerth, Prior, Fort, Ah Chee, and possibly Lohmann and Fullarton certainly deserve some serious consideration. What a good position for the club, with this list and the 2023 draw GF min: is my expectation.

2023 Rounds 1 & 2 best 22.

B: Gardiner, Andrews, Starcevich
HB: Rich, Payne, Coleman
C: Robertson, Josh Dunkley, McCluggage
HF: Rayner, Hipwood, Zorko
FF: Gunston, Daniher, Cameron
Foll: McInerney, Neale, Berry
Int: Wilmot, Ashcroft, Bailey, McCarthy

Yes, Whiting has been out to training a bit, and spoken to the players.

Sometimes journo’s don’t report on certain injuries, as the club and/or player doesn’t want the spot light on them, and this might be the case.

Just from my perspective, Fish likes to keep a good rapport with the club, and he’s not in competition up here with a dozen other journo’s to break a story and keep his publication in the fan spotlight.

 

[On the quiet]

Yes, Whiting has been out to training a bit, and spoken to the players.

Sometimes journo’s don’t report on certain injuries, as the club and/or player doesn’t want the spot light on them, and this might be the case.

Just from my perspective, Fish likes to keep a good rapport with the club, and he’s not in competition up here with a dozen other journo’s to break a story and keep his publication in the fan spotlight.

yes that is a fair point regarding not reporting on a certain injury or certain player

 

[Section 5]

Below the details of the substitute rule for next year after the AFL Commission ratified the recommended changes.
Taken from the AFL site
A little surprised that the AFL did not take this opportunity to state that this "substitute player" is not to be a debut player
...................................

• THE TACTICAL substitute is back in 2023 but the famous subs vest won't be making a return.
  
  As reported by AFL.com.au last month, clubs will be able to replace a player with an unused substitute at any stage of the game, for any reason. The two-year-old rule of players needing a medical reason to be substituted out of the game will no longer apply.
  
  The AFL wrote to clubs on Wednesday, confirming the details of the substitute rule for next year after the AFL Commission ratified the recommended changes.
• Clubs will still name a starting sub when they finalise their teams an hour before the first bounce, in addition to the four interchange players.
• The starting sub must sit in the rear row of the interchange bench, wearing a club-branded top that is not their playing guernsey. There will be no substitute's vest or any other coloured top.
• Substitutes can play in a state league competition on the same weekend, subject to the club's discretion and the relevant state league's rules.
• The interchange cap remains the same at 75 rotations per game.

Players who suffer a suspected concussion must still undergo the mandatory assessments for a minimum of 15 minutes as per the AFL's concussion guidelines. If any player is substituted out of the game due to suspected concussion, they cannot return to the game even if they are eventually cleared of concussion by club doctors.

The medical substitute was introduced on the eve of the 2021 season after the AFL doubled to 12 days the mandatory time out of the game for a player who suffers a concussion.

At the time, the League's footy boss Steve Hocking said the rule was introduced with player safety in mind.

Between 2011-15, the interchange was reduced from four players to three but a substitute player was allowed to replace any other player at any time, for any reason.

 

[scoman]

If Zorko can get back to the defensive pressure of 2019 then I would be happy.
He was fantastic in that area in 18 and 19.

From memory he was also pretty fantastic in 2021 as our most defensive minded mid. Huge tackle numbers, I think? I had hoped he would bring that to the forward line in 2022. Perhaps if he is fit, he can play forward mostly next year? I worry we don't have anyone playing forward with a defense first mindset. Lots of talent and goalscoring ability, but not so much running and pressuring when they know it won't be rewarded. Maybe a little harsh, but Im sure you get my meaning. Do you think Zorks could be that guy?

 

[twhowler]

From memory he was also pretty fantastic in 2021 as our most defensive minded mid. Huge tackle numbers, I think? I had hoped he would bring that to the forward line in 2022. Perhaps if he is fit, he can play forward mostly next year? I worry we don't have anyone playing forward with a defense first mindset. Lots of talent and goalscoring ability, but not so much running and pressuring when they know it won't be rewarded. Maybe a little harsh, but Im sure you get my meaning. Do you think Zorks could be that guy?

Agree with this, and while he has lost a bit of zip his first few steps and still pretty quick, and that's all you need to create some pressure in the forward line. Cameron was greatly improved in the pressure area but only so much he can do as a big goalkicker. I like the idea of Lohman playing a pure pressure role as well but depends if he is up to it overall. What do we think the balance is? 2 pressure forwards out of 4 within the 7 person forward line? Cameron maybe counts as half. If Zorko plays mostly pressure but a bit of midfield, i think we need one more. So either Linc steps up on that front, of Lohman comes in.

Or could Coleman be a bolter? He seems a bit quicker than Kiddy? Is he much of a tackler in the 2s?

 

[knaf]

From memory he was also pretty fantastic in 2021 as our most defensive minded mid. Huge tackle numbers, I think? I had hoped he would bring that to the forward line in 2022. Perhaps if he is fit, he can play forward mostly next year? I worry we don't have anyone playing forward with a defense first mindset. Lots of talent and goalscoring ability, but not so much running and pressuring when they know it won't be rewarded. Maybe a little harsh, but Im sure you get my meaning. Do you think Zorks could be that guy?

Yep Zorko had a good 2021 making the AA squad of 40. As did Lyons. Probably helps to understand why the coaching group continued to back them. Even if with hindsight they probably should have sent Lyons for treatment abit earlier.

 

[briztoon]

Agree with this, and while he has lost a bit of zip his first few steps and still pretty quick, and that's all you need to create some pressure in the forward line. Cameron was greatly improved in the pressure area but only so much he can do as a big goalkicker. I like the idea of Lohman playing a pure pressure role as well but depends if he is up to it overall. What do we think the balance is? 2 pressure forwards out of 4 within the 7 person forward line? Cameron maybe counts as half. If Zorko plays mostly pressure but a bit of midfield, i think we need one more. So either Linc steps up on that front, of Lohman comes in.

Or could Coleman be a bolter? He seems a bit quicker than Kiddy? Is he much of a tackler in the 2s?

Coleman has a long way to work on his endurance.

 

[Mikevk123]

B Rich Andrews Starcevich
HB Mckeena Adams K.Coleman
C Mcluaggage Dunkley Berry
HF Bailey Daniher Gunston
F Cameron Hipwood McCarthy
FOLL Mclernery Robertson Neale
I/C- Rayner, Zorko, Ashcroft, Payne
Emerg- Lyons, Wilmot, Gardiner, Ah’Chee, Fort

 

[Lazza16]

B Rich Andrews Starcevich
HB Mckeena Adams K.Coleman
C Mcluaggage Dunkley Berry
HF Bailey Daniher Gunston
F Cameron Hipwood McCarthy
FOLL Mclernery Robertson Neale
I/C- Rayner, Zorko, Ashcroft, Payne
Emerg- Lyons, Wilmot, Gardiner, Ah’Chee, Fort

No wonder McKenna left the Bombers .......how do you think we will go this season Mikevk?

 

[countryVicLion]

Ok
Time for an update after a great chat with a in the game day ranks personal without giving everything up
McKenna is absolutely flying
Lohmann is on light duties will resume late Jan no serious dramas there club rates him extremely highly
Blake Coleman also rated extremely highly
Harris should be moving like 2020 again as was favouring/ protecting/ carrying himself all year in 21-22
Kiddy is just class personified expecting further development still
Gunston rapt to get will only help Joe & Eric
Dunkley serious weapon, Lachie will only benefit further from having around.
Lyons still a big part of the starting team and now very fit




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[Section 5]

The tactical sub is now confirmed so we should include that position
My round 1 team has not changed much.
Last time i did not name a player on the wing but will this time
A few could play wing but i really wanted to find a spot for Dev in the 22

Starcevich - Payne - Gardiner
Rich - Andrews - Coleman
Robertson - McCluggage - Berry
Bailey - Hipwood - Rayner
Gunston - Daniher - Cameron

McInerney - Neale - Dunkley

Int: Zorko (F/M), McCarthy (F), Ashcroft (W/M), McKenna (D), Ah Chee TS

Missing due to injury concerns but if fit could easily make the team Lyons & Adams
For now, Ah Chee for TS as he is versatile but i think he will struggle to make best 22 now. A number of players could fill that role
Ruck relief is a concern but will assume Joe fills in for now. Hope surgery completely fixed the issue

 

[Section 5]

Ok
Time for an update after a great chat with a in the game day ranks personal without giving everything up
McKenna is absolutely flying
Lohmann is on light duties will resume late Jan no serious dramas there club rates him extremely highly
Blake Coleman also rated extremely highly
Harris should be moving like 2020 again as was favouring/ protecting/ carrying himself all year in 21-22
Kiddy is just class personified expecting further development still
Gunston rapt to get will only help Joe & Eric
Dunkley serious weapon, Lachie will only benefit further from having around.
Lyons still a big part of the starting team and now very fit




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Thanks for that information
Just on the Lyons part
I attended training on the 9/12/22
Lyons was doing some light run throughs of about 50 meters in front of me with a coach monitoring his progress
He was struggling to get to about 50% and his action not great. Did not notice him anywhere after that short session
That was 3 weeks ago so maybe steady progress has been made since then

Dalions and briztoon have mentioned they attended training after that date
So, a question to them did either notice Lyons training and if so, how was he travelling

 

[Dalions]

Thanks for that information
Just on the Lyons part
I attended training on the 9/12/22
Lyons was doing some light run throughs of about 50 meters in front of me with a coach monitoring his progress
He was struggling to get to about 50% and his action not great. Did not notice him anywhere after that short session
That was 3 weeks ago so maybe steady progress has been made since then

Dalions and briztoon have mentioned they attended training after that date
So, a question to them did either notice Lyons training and if so, how was he travelling

Lyons did quite a bit of running in the last session and was running unhindered.
It was more run throughs rather than laps.
Didn’t see him do any of the main session at all, other than some handball drills.

 

[mpal6]

Need to bring Lyons back only if fully fit. Just play Robertson in until then. Same with Adams until he recovers and becomes match fit. Hoping to see Robertson and Prior step up another level and grab a permanent spot on merit.

Neale, Dunkley, Robertson would give us bit more size in midfield mix letting us play Berry on the wing. I'd put McCluggage back on the other wing where he had a brilliant season. Rayner to build his tank even more this offseason as he can slot into that midfield rotation giving us a different look.


B: Rich Payne Starcevich
HB: Coleman, Andrews, Gardiner
C: Berry, Dunkley, McCluggage
HF: Bailey, Hipwood, Zorko
F: Cameron, Daniher, Gunston
RR: McInerney, Neale, Robertson

IC: Ashcroft, Rayner, McCarthy, McKenna, Ah Chee

Emergency: Fort, Wilmot, Lyons, Adams, Lohmann, Prior, Cockatoo, Fullarton

 

[countryVicLion]

Thanks for that information
Just on the Lyons part
I attended training on the 9/12/22
Lyons was doing some light run throughs of about 50 meters in front of me with a coach monitoring his progress
He was struggling to get to about 50% and his action not great. Did not notice him anywhere after that short session
That was 3 weeks ago so maybe steady progress has been made since then

Dalions and briztoon have mentioned they attended training after that date
So, a question to them did either notice Lyons training and if so, how was he travelling

Reword meaning now in 2023 will be very fit and has the drive to show the knockers, I said my belief is he is gone and we need youth in that spot


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[Strato]

Concerns at present are the Backline, Ruck and Mental Toughness as we progress through 2023 season.
Changes have to be made for us to take the next step.
Player form and consistency must be rewarded at all times. We have many players who can fill those gaps now. Previously, players have been selected in the senior team who were out of form or partially injured just because who they were. 99% of the time their performance was: Down
You must play fully fit players which has not been the case.

For round one against Port Adelaide.

Starcevich - Andrews - Gardiner
McKenna - Payne - Coleman
Robertson - McCluggage - Berry
Bailey - Hipwood - Dunkley
Gunston - Daniher - Cameron

McInerney - Lyons - Neale

Int: Zorko, Rayner, Rich, Fort.

Emerg: Wilmot, Ah Chee, Prior, Matho, McCarthy, Answerth, Ashcroft, Fullarton, Cockatoo and Adams(Indefinite).

Daniher must be left at Full Forward at all times. He's a Full Forward - Not a Ruckman.
We must have Fort (or Fullarton) to support McInerney throughout the season. McInerney cannot do it himself.

We still do our rotation through the midfield with Lyons, Neale, Dunkley McCluggage, Rayner, Berry, Bailey, Zorko.

On paper I believe we have a good 75 to 80% chance in season 2023 but the other 20 to 25% will be left to Coaching, Selection, Form, Player Management and Injuries that determine where we finish in 2023.

 

[lionshine]

Payne, Robertson, Ah Chee, Answerth, Fort, Wilmot, Lyons, Adams, Lohmann, Prior, Cockatoo, Fullarton.

Only going to be 3 spots in the best 23 for the above group of players. We have some quality there and I think all of them would be deserving of a spot in the senior team on merit. I guess it highlights our depth but some players will feel hard done by I imagine.

Regulars in our best 22 in recent years like McInerney, McCarthy, Answerth, Lyons, Gardiner and even Berry, Rayner and Coleman will need to perform consistently to maintain their spot in the senior team and Rich and Zorko cannot afford to drop off at all. If not, players like Robertson, Prior, Ah Chee, Cockatoo, Wilmot and Lohmann will be breathing down their necks.

 

[briztoon]

Payne, Robertson, Ah Chee, Answerth, Fort, Wilmot, Lyons, Adams, Lohmann, Prior, Cockatoo, Fullarton.

Only going to be 3 spots in the best 23 for the above group of players. We have some quality there and I think all of them would be deserving of a spot in the senior team on merit. I guess it highlights our depth but some players will feel hard done by I imagine.

Regulars in our best 22 in recent years like McInerney, McCarthy, Answerth, Lyons, Gardiner and even Berry, Rayner and Coleman will need to perform consistently to maintain their spot in the senior team and Rich and Zorko cannot afford to drop off at all. If not, players like Robertson, Prior, Ah Chee, Cockatoo, Wilmot and Lohmann will be breathing down their necks.

Sadly, Fagan's selection policy does not reflect this. Automatic best 22 players do not get dropped from the team, regardless of form.

For much of last season, the only position that was regularly dropped, was one of the wingers, with Fagan rotating through Prior, Ah Chee, Robinson and Tunstill.

 

[Strato]

Sadly, Fagan's selection policy does not reflect this. Automatic best 22 players do not get dropped from the team, regardless of form.

For much of last season, the only position that was regularly dropped, was one of the wingers, with Fagan rotating through Prior, Ah Chee, Robinson and Tunstill.

I have to agree with what you have stated. My son recently at the Melbourne Races spoke to a Brisbane Lions Player who was not happy with some coaches including the Coach. He told my son if you are not in favour with Fagan it does not matter how well you are playing you do not get a go. Other comments were made.

One example throughout the 2022 season in regards to good form was: Matho. It was mainly due to pressure, gained a spot and went well.

Selection policy hopefully changes for the better.

 

[mpal6]

Sadly, Fagan's selection policy does not reflect this. Automatic best 22 players do not get dropped from the team, regardless of form.

For much of last season, the only position that was regularly dropped, was one of the wingers, with Fagan rotating through Prior, Ah Chee, Robinson and Tunstill.

It was a mixed bag in the end though. For example I was strongly against playing Hipwood too early and wanting to get Fort in there. Hipwood came good in finals which vindicated Fagan's belief around keeping him in best 22. On the flip side they kept playing Lyons while knowing he had OP and not going so well overall. Now apparently Lyons family isn't happy with how he got handled and kept getting played etc. Well there was nothing stopping Lyons from dropping himself if not fit, go figure.

Fagan could start with a clean slate for 2023 and say if you don't perform for 2+ games you won't be getting another look in without a stint in 2s. That kind of baselining might help with building more belief amongst fringe players. Might improve out depth as well.

 

[Viceregal]

It was a mixed bag in the end though. For example I was strongly against playing Hipwood too early and wanting to get Fort in there. Hipwood came good in finals which vindicated Fagan's belief around keeping him in best 22. On the flip side they kept playing Lyons while knowing he had OP and not going so well overall. Now apparently Lyons family isn't happy with how he got handled and kept getting played etc. Well there was nothing stopping Lyons from dropping himself if not fit, go figure.

Fagan could start with a clean slate for 2023 and say if you don't perform for 2+ games you won't be getting another look in without a stint in 2s. That kind of baselining might help with building more belief amongst fringe players. Might improve out depth as well.

Would that be for the established players? I remember the concept of the newer ones being told they have four or five games to show their stuff so they aren't so focussed on not-making-mistakes-and-being-dropped and can focus on getting used to the game being mentioned as a positive for development a few times...

 

[Nunez]

I have to agree with what you have stated. My son recently at the Melbourne Races spoke to a Brisbane Lions Player who was not happy with some coaches including the Coach. He told my son if you are not in favour with Fagan it does not matter how well you are playing you do not get a go. Other comments were made.

One example throughout the 2022 season in regards to good form was: Matho. It was mainly due to pressure, gained a spot and went well.

Selection policy hopefully changes for the better.

So Matho found consistent form and earned a spot. So did Robertson.

What player should have been best 22 who didn't get an opportunity to do so?

Fagan is a big fan of continuity, and given we've finished top four the last few years I'd argue that's a strength, not a weakness.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

I have to agree with what you have stated. My son recently at the Melbourne Races spoke to a Brisbane Lions Player who was not happy with some coaches including the Coach. He told my son if you are not in favour with Fagan it does not matter how well you are playing you do not get a go. Other comments were made.

One example throughout the 2022 season in regards to good form was: Matho. It was mainly due to pressure, gained a spot and went well.

Selection policy hopefully changes for the better.

This is a story seemingly as old as time. There were probably apostles dirty at Jesus for not getting more of a run.

Young players may think they're putting together a run of form in the twos, but they tend to generally overrate their abilities in my experience. Seniot coaches have to way up performnce and how it stacks up with the standard their playing at. It was mentioned last season but the coaches were making the call that a 80% Lyons was still a better proposition than a 100% Matho or Dev. It did probably stray into sunk cost fallacy after a while when that 80% dipped lower and lower.

But no one said it was easy being a coach. And there are always players thinking they are hard done by, and to be honest, you probably want them to be.