some posters will still want to drop him lol
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Opinion First Choice Ruck - Pitto vs TDK
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One one.
Justnetime
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Half way through the season it’s worth revisiting as there is potentially evidence here I think that TDK is seriously costing us on match day. Not that we can do anything much about it, and not that we don’t think TDK can be something special in time.
just an analysis of the now.
Dont know all the KPIs for a ruck but some I can think of are
I know it’s obvious from watching the games but it compounds our midfield dropping away. Without the extraction we are slow.
Holes are appearing due to injuries but this one is a big one.
I look ahead to the Freo game and see Darcy. The exact body type TDK struggles aganst. I hope he sets himself or it will get ugly.
just an analysis of the now.
Dont know all the KPIs for a ruck but some I can think of are
- Hitouts (on average, ranked 33rd of ruckman)
- Hitouts to advantage (on average, ranked 7th of all ruckman)
- Score involvements (on average, ranked 24th of ruckman)
- Tackling (on average, ranked 23rd of ruckman)
- Marking (on average, ranked 18th of ruckman)
- Disposals (on average, ranked 27th of ruckman)
- Effective Disposals (on average ranked 37th of ruckman)
- Pressure acts (on average, ranked 12th of ruckman)
- Metres gained (terrible)
I know it’s obvious from watching the games but it compounds our midfield dropping away. Without the extraction we are slow.
Holes are appearing due to injuries but this one is a big one.
I look ahead to the Freo game and see Darcy. The exact body type TDK struggles aganst. I hope he sets himself or it will get ugly.
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Obviously we don't have any other legitimate options at the moment.
This year will hopefully be a great development year for him. We aren't really challenging this year, so I'm not too fussed if he's struggling a little.
He just needs to get his hands on it more often (in terms of hitouts, not disposals).
If you look at the top 25 rucks for average ruck contests attended, he sits 23rd averaging 49 contests per game, but he's comfortably the lowest for average hitouts. He only wins a third of his hitouts. If he can get that up to around 45%, there's an extra 6 hitouts a game and an extra 2 to advantage.
Draper attends 1.5 more contests, but averages nearly 7 more hitouts.
Yes, he's struggling a little at the moment, but he's 22yo, with 34 games under his belt and our 2nd option if all players are healthy. So hopefully this is just a bit of a fast track for his development. I don't see him hanging his head or losing any confidence out there.
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We aren’t really challenging this year?
We are 5th after 13 rounds, a single game off top spot, regardless of our shocking injuries and that TDK is playing a role he isn’t yet ready for, we are a game off top spot, that’s challenging, regardless of what the most negative think.
Amending my opinion on TDK (more forward than ruck) and Pitto (Only a ruck). Over the next 4-5 years I am still taking TDK, but given what our style looks like, Pitto short term
Think we need to target someone that is more of a ruckman, that is capable forward
Think we need to target someone that is more of a ruckman, that is capable forward
TDK has some learning to do. Thinking he is getting some great grounding with the extended absence of Pitto. There certainly are some flaws in his “craft” which need addressing. Not too late to do so, but have a feeling we need to move on from nice guy Kreuze as our ruck mentor. TDK’s preseason was largely ineffective due to his shoulder issue, so the optimist in me wants him healthy at season’s end to allow him to grow in to his frame a little more.
Edit: It seems a little off that we have Sean Hampson as an assistant in the women’s program and Kreuzer in the men’s. Surely the two could be integrated with both being (I believe) part time. No idea of Hammer’s coaching creds, but spent some time at Tigers with the likes of Nank, so may bring some differing tools to the table.
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- Mar 26, 2015
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Well, anything can happen come finals, especially if we get Weitering, Pitto and Williams back (looking purely at the longer injuries - excluding Cerra who should be back this week or next). Was more a comment about it being a learning year under Voss, with a new game plan, a few new players learning the team and their roles, the injuries. Finals was the aim. We may or may not even win one, given it will be the first time playing for most. Who knows how our game plan will stack up under finals footy, or whether some players will under/over perform in the heightened pressure. Just a win would be a great start to the Voss era. A flag, whilst always technically a chance if we make finals, is really a long shot. Being realistic is not being negative.
We're also only really a game away from dropping out of the 8. We have 5 games coming up against current top 8 sides, after just losing to another team now in the 8. We have to play the next month without the aforementioned 3 players. Four of our 5 games are against all of the current top 4, and a 6th game against the Pies, who are trying to get into the 8 and only out on percentage. There's every chance that our last game against the Pies is to decide the final spot.
I'm reasonably confident of making finals. I think we could potentially surprise a team or two if we do get in, but a flag is a massive long shot, which says that we aren't challenging this year. Stranger things have happened, but there's nothing wrong or negative about being realistic.
Justnetime
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I think TDK at 22 years of age is between 1-3 years behind the other ‘average’ ruckman and more years behind the good ruckman. But it is what it is and we have to deal.
Due to our current structural weakness our coaching team need to get creative and experiment. Given TDKs averages it is basically saying he is worse than most other clubs second ruckman with his average output in the late 20s and even 30s in terms of rankings.
With that information and our defensive weakness Id experiment in the Saints game with Mirkov. I’d expect Mirkov to be useless around ground but the tap in the middle could be used for first possession or to at least make it confusing. He should then just be made to run after opposing ruckman and punch…nothing fancy. Tap and then tag.
Mirkov might win us some clearances and CBAs. This allows either TDK or JSoS to play in defence. Both warrant a shot at covering CHB.
It would be an experiment to see if he survives and adds any value due to his extreme height. I’d try it in the saints game but not Freo due to Darcy. The risk of course is that Mirkov giraffe breaks and gets injured. Having said that, this is footy and he is on the list.
Mirkov might be useless but TDK is travelllng close to last in the league and the structural benefits could help the side Due to Sam Durdin going down…along with all the other def talls.
Due to our current structural weakness our coaching team need to get creative and experiment. Given TDKs averages it is basically saying he is worse than most other clubs second ruckman with his average output in the late 20s and even 30s in terms of rankings.
With that information and our defensive weakness Id experiment in the Saints game with Mirkov. I’d expect Mirkov to be useless around ground but the tap in the middle could be used for first possession or to at least make it confusing. He should then just be made to run after opposing ruckman and punch…nothing fancy. Tap and then tag.
Mirkov might win us some clearances and CBAs. This allows either TDK or JSoS to play in defence. Both warrant a shot at covering CHB.
It would be an experiment to see if he survives and adds any value due to his extreme height. I’d try it in the saints game but not Freo due to Darcy. The risk of course is that Mirkov giraffe breaks and gets injured. Having said that, this is footy and he is on the list.
Mirkov might be useless but TDK is travelllng close to last in the league and the structural benefits could help the side Due to Sam Durdin going down…along with all the other def talls.
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Not sure the Saints game is one I want to experiment in. Eagles? Definitely. Perhaps GWS and Crows. Weaker teams, but stronger rucks.
I'd rather play our strongest available side against the tougher teams.
Beyond Blue
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Saints have Marshall and Ryder which is possibly more daunting than Darcy and Lobb so I certainly wouldn’t be “experimenting” with Mirkov for that game or at all this year.
After a shaky start I think TDK has made some really good progress this year, albeit due largely largely to Pitto’s injury, but I think with the both of them on the list it won’t be long before we will have one of the best 1-2 ruck combo’s in the league.
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At the end of the day its piss poor list management to go into a season with only 2 recognised ruckman on our list
I think Young was seen as emergency cover too. He may not have been expected to be playing regular 1s as a KPD.
So if you say had Pitt/TDK/Young/Mirkov/JSOS, that's probably enough
The fact is Young both exceeded expectations as a defender and we had like 5 injuries to KPDs...the flow on effect is TDK/JSOS being our combo for most of the season.
Tough on Tommy, Dean Cox didn't really get going until he was 80 games in and he had a #1 draft pick rucking with him early on. Not saying TDK is going to end up anywhere as good as Cox but he's a kid as far as rucks go and you can't fault his attack on the ball, or his ability to fill an enormous hole for a new coach.
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Without any evidence to back this up, it feels like TDK is where English was a season or two ago.
The solo-ruck experience is an invaluable development opportunity for him and think it’ll hold him in terrific stead in years to come.
The solo-ruck experience is an invaluable development opportunity for him and think it’ll hold him in terrific stead in years to come.
I can’t remember which close game it was but he took 2-3 huge pack marks in defence felt like he won the game for us
He looks to have put on minimum 5 kg and there is more to come this year has been fantastic for his development he’s rarely played consecutive games this year rarely missed a game the continuity is invaluable
It seems the non leaping rucks adjust to the follow up quicker they can tap then continue easily adjust to a change in direction to block or take possession.Where as when TDK leaps he hast wait to hit the ground then change direction
He looks to have put on minimum 5 kg and there is more to come this year has been fantastic for his development he’s rarely played consecutive games this year rarely missed a game the continuity is invaluable
It seems the non leaping rucks adjust to the follow up quicker they can tap then continue easily adjust to a change in direction to block or take possession.Where as when TDK leaps he hast wait to hit the ground then change direction
Young (first) rucked for Western Bulldogs in a (winning) preliminary final before they brought back Stef Martin for the GF. Probably one of the reasons he came to us. Three decent rucks and a developing one was good list management. Fair to say, bar the Jones fiasco, he would have played plenty of ruck minutes for us. OMac did a decent job as a pinch hitter in his “cameos”. Then there is JSOS and Harry up forward.
List management was fine but you and plenty of others will refuse to see that…
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If we scrape in to the 8 then I agree, a chance but unrealistic, my gripe here is that we are currently 5th and a game off top, at the moment we are right in the mix for top 4, if we get 4th then there is no reason why we can’t.
I understand we could also drop a few games coming up but until we do, I’m aiming for that top 4.
For reference at the same point last year, Port and Brisbane were 9 and 4, they finished 2nd and 4th
JustaBattler
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With a full and fit list - I don't think any Club would go in strong favorites against us in a final.
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Normally being a game off top spot this late in the season would be pretty good. Still is, but the context is that a game off top spot, also happens to be a game off 9th. That's how much our season is on a knife's edge.
6 of our remaining games against teams who are in the 8, or out by percentage. Four of those being top 4. At least the next month without Weitering, Pitto and Williams.
Without looking, I'm not sure that Port and Lions were up against the ropes like that.
Our best this year would beat anyone, so if we get healthy and back to our best, sure, it's possible. Probably need a few more other results to go our way, like Saints and Swans this weekend gone.
Anyway, fingers crossed that I'm wrong.
I don't really follow other teams' stats...but English has some pretty impressive disposal numbers for a ruckman. TDK needs to find a way to get involved in the play post-hitout. Eyeball stat, but TDK likes to go for big grabs but doesn't contribute much at all apart from that.
vs TDK:
I'm still not worried about TDK going forward, he's just not a no.1 now, but as others have said ruckmen can not hit their straps until mid 20s. Needs some more time to find his man body.
What worried me more (not sure if worries is the right word but it's what I'll use) is that he is absolutely not a forward. Besides taking a mark he provides nothing up forward as he has no idea what he's doing or where to go. Constantly gets in McKay & Curnows space and doesn't know how to own his own space. He's a bit of a headless chook up there.
I wouldn't be opposed to him being a ruck/defender as opposed to ruck/forward for the time being.
What worried me more (not sure if worries is the right word but it's what I'll use) is that he is absolutely not a forward. Besides taking a mark he provides nothing up forward as he has no idea what he's doing or where to go. Constantly gets in McKay & Curnows space and doesn't know how to own his own space. He's a bit of a headless chook up there.
I wouldn't be opposed to him being a ruck/defender as opposed to ruck/forward for the time being.
TDK is not blessed with good footy IQ unfortunately, it can't be taught its innate , he's a skilled tall athlete, can a beautiful mark, whowever needs more physical development and better aerobic capacity, hopefully better footy adaptability will come with confidence & experience.
At the moment the pressure of 1st Ruckman is a bit overwhelming , we need to address this problem asap.
At the moment the pressure of 1st Ruckman is a bit overwhelming , we need to address this problem asap.
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I think it’s a little unfair to say he’s overwhelmed - yes he got monstered against Witts (who IMO is the best ruck man in the league this year) and Darcy and Lobb worked him over when Pitto went down (and no Sos that game either) but he has pretty much broken even with everyone else since (even Nank last week).
Our ruck issues are more to do with the third pure ruck option (Mirkov) being a project player who is at least 1-2 years away from playing and the next option after that is Young who is also a key position player, so as a result we end up having to play an undersized Sos as a chop out in the ruck.
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