Opinion First Choice Ruck - Pitto vs TDK

[Justnetime]

I thought it a foregone conclusion that TDK has this spot wrapped up. He has the draft pedigree, the hype and probably the skill advantage on his side.

Right now, ruck is our weakest point on field and if we play two, they are probably our two weakest players vs opponents. That is, opposition clubs would look at this is their positive point of different.

Because I think both are currently weak (maybe TDK changes soon) I only want to play one. There is def cause for concern doing that.

But back to TDK vs Pitto. In my head I had Pitto down as terrible because he gives away free kicks in midfield and the opponents fwd 50. I can’t stand that and along with Cripps doing the same, it kills our momentum. So I had personally written him off for the one ruck role that I prefer. I loved it when TDK took over.

Now going back over their stats for the year with both playing 13 games each there is a narrative that Pitto outpformed TDK Enough to warrant first choice in 22. It is not a likeable proposition really but it seems the moneyball scenario.

The key stats of hitouts, hit outs to adv, clearances and ability to stay on the ground longer (single ruck option) all favour Pitto by quite a bit. One percenters and tackling are in his favour. Physicality and disposals are in Pittos corner though time on ground is higher explaining some of this. Disposal efficiency overall is in TDKs favour. To the eye TDK looks better in most instances but it is maybe deceiving.

I have to admit offsetting Pittos free kicks against in important spots is TDKs dumb tendency to kick into the corridor which led to quite a few turnovers.

So we have the downright ugly moneyball option in Pitto versus the younger draft backed pedigree in TDK.

TDK really needs to improve a jump again specially in hit outs. He still has my hopes but that is because he looks less of a potato out there.

Playing two of them just hurts us. Basically, I just don’t like our options right now because the truth behind TDK is ugly.

 

[therubbernub]

I thought it a foregone conclusion that TDK has this spot wrapped up. He has the draft pedigree, the hype and probably the skill advantage on his side.

Right now, ruck is our weakest point on field and if we play two, they are probably our two weakest players vs opponents. That is, opposition clubs would look at this is their positive point of different.

Because I think both are currently weak (maybe TDK changes soon) I only want to play one. There is def cause for concern doing that.

But back to TDK vs Pitto. In my head I had Pitto down as terrible because he gives away free kicks in midfield and the opponents fwd 50. I can’t stand that and along with Cripps doing the same, it kills our momentum. So I had personally written him off for the one ruck role that I prefer. I loved it when TDK took over.

Now going back over their stats for the year with both playing 13 games each there is a narrative that Pitto outpformed TDK Enough to warrant first choice in 22. It is not a likeable proposition really but it seems the moneyball scenario.

The key stats of hitouts, hit outs to adv, clearances and ability to stay on the ground longer (single ruck option) all favour Pitto by quite a bit. One percenters and tackling are in his favour. Physicality and disposals are in Pittos corner though time on ground is higher explaining some of this. Disposal efficiency overall is in TDKs favour. To the eye TDK looks better in most instances but it is maybe deceiving.

I have to admit offsetting Pittos free kicks against in important spots is TDKs dumb tendency to kick into the corridor which led to quite a few turnovers.

So we have the downright ugly moneyball option in Pitto versus the younger draft backed pedigree in TDK.

TDK really needs to improve a jump again specially in hit outs. He still has my hopes but that is it as he does look less of a potato out there.

Playing two of them just hurts us. Basically, I just don’t like our options right now because the truth behind TDK is ugly.

I agree , neither of them are a gawn or a jackson. One of them is enough

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

I agree , neither of them are a gawn or a jackson. One of them is enough

Bit early to say that I would've thought. At the same age...

TDK same games, more kicks, more marks, more shots in goal, more clearances, similar everything really.

 

[Justnetime]

Just thinking back maybe Pittos stats are misleading because of the GC game where he rucked unopposed height wise.

 

[Bletch]

I think Pitto has the better ruck craft now, but gets shown up at centre bounces, as he doesn't have much of a leap. TDK on the other hand still gets pushed off contests too easily, but can be a target up forward. TDK has more upside you'd think, but has a lot of work to do. I think he'll get the nod, as we need to get as much game time into him as we can. But Pitto will certainly get regular game time.

The problem we have is that neither of them have sufficient impact around the ground. They both need to work on this over summer. Ideally we'd like to play both with Caz gone, but we can't afford two talls who don't offer anything more than ruck contests. It's a problem. If JSOS is rucking again next year, we're in trouble.

 

[gab213]

They will both play in the team, I expect Pittonet to play first ruck more often than not, two developing young ruckmen, neither has sewn anything up.

 

[Arr0w]

TDK, and daylight

Hopefully we use Young as a 2nd KPF, chopout ruck

Love JSos' fight, but no to a longtime ruck chopout

 

[Ash24]

I prefer TDK, and would also like to see JSOS keep developing as a 2nd ruck.

 

[Salt Lake Cities]

TDK has done his apprenticeship now, as long as he has a full pre season I think it’ll comfortably be him as he offers a lot more versatility in the position

Pitto is a backup, even 3rd choice ruckman, and a very solid one at that level

Then there’s Mirkov, the project. He’d ideally be 4th choice for now IMO, leaving us one short. OMac will likely be that emergency kind of option next season but we’ll need someone longer term, a ruck/forward would be ideal

I thought we were 1 or 2 big blokes short at the start of last season, then recruited Mirkov. Levi departs and Young comes in, so I’d still like one more personally as Young and OMac are better known as defenders

 

[BlueJet]

On current output, Pittonet.
TDK could be anything though.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

STRENGTH!!!

 

[therubbernub]

Bit early to say that I would've thought. At the same age...

TDK same games, more kicks, more marks, more shots in goal, more clearances, similar everything really.

gawn in 2013 is not the same players as he is now though.....

 

[lukep_86]

The sky is the limit for TDK

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

The sky is the limit for TDK

So, no space travel? That's sad.

 

[Justnetime]

The sky is the limit for TDK

Id be happy if he could win the hit outs in a couple of matches.

 

[Blue Bloods]

TDK is the future and will get better every game, so it has to be him. Two rucks not really an option with either Pittonet or TDK sitting deep forward with Harry, Curnow and McGovern/JSOS is just to tall.

Which means we need a chop out ruck, but if we can teach Harry to take forward 50 ruck contest (similar to Hawkins) and leave TDK a kick behind the ball would help him play longer minutes on the ground and less ruck time for the chop out option.

 

[BringFevBack2021]

Early in the season, Pitto was 3rd or 4th in total hit outs. He can tap the ball but it’s just not to advantage or in any other real, meaningful way. He just kind of slaps it.

TDK can run, take grabs, kick goals and tap it beautifully. TDK is a much brighter prospect and I reckon a 5-6kg gain in weight would make him leagues better. I don’t believe he will ever be a genuine star ruck but I see him as a genuine X factor around the ground, like an extra midfielder.

 

[Styxx]

Tom is still developing. Still around 21 and has missed chunks of time with injury.

He has the athleticism, just needs to build a little more size and stamina to ruck a season (he was getting pushed around later in games.)

Pitto is handy enough, and with Casboult gone you do not have that chop out ruck role in the event Tom does get injured too.

 

[RAPPA]

TDK is like a kelpie puppy - great athleticism, can leap and jump high but over exerting himself without getting the desired output. A solid pre season should hopefully see him develop the ruck craft and build on the smarts.

 

[SBYM]

TDK is like a kelpie puppy

He'll go hammer and tongs at your favourite teddy in the middle of room and won't care who's watching??

 

[Justnetime]

I’m in for TDK as well. I’ve bought in on the athleticism and hype. he is young so can improve fast.

Lets just not forget that for the role of ruck, the key thing is hitouts and hit outs to advantage, and just solely with 2022 in mind, he is woeful. Ranking down in the mid 20s or lower which puts him behind many teams second ruck.

Most other stats for the middle of the road rucks are blah. Gawn and Grundy are different but let’s not go there.

So hitouts and hitouts to adv it is. He has to improve ….aLot.

 

[blueboy111]

Don’t forget pitto has played a total of 33 games three is slot of room for Improvement

 

[swuzzlebubble]

What's the cutoff date to declare our #1 ruckman for the season? /s

 

[Benga]

TDK with SOS as a 70/30 split is by far our best ruck combination.

We have a unique opportunity to build a game plan around this.
TDKs athleticism and genuine fwd craft alongside SOS, who whilst isn’t going to win the tap outs (which is so overrated it’s not funny), has proven he can impact the ruck contest enough to make sure that while the opposition ruckman still gets first hands to it, it isn’t directed with enough accuracy to consistently and genuinely impact the game. His follow up work is the best in the competition as a ruck. SOS is an overgrown genuine mid, who is too slow (relatively speaking) to consistently play midfield. But, relative to ruckman he isn’t. He’s a dynamic, competitive beast, with elite decision making and hand/foot skills.

As mentioned above, we have a unique opportunity with this set up. In this completion, the team that wins it all, is the team that can think of a new idea/game plan first, and then implement it better than anyone else. This is our opportunity to do that.

 

[Blue__Balls]

My first thought was that the issue may lie in the coaching - having Kreuzer (who was never a noted tap ruck) coaching two blokes who can actually get first hands on the ball, and in his first season of coaching no less, seems less than optimal. But looking across the league, there aren't many specialist ruck coaches who seem all that better credentialled.

Makes me think that in most cases it's probably got more to do with the midfield/stoppages coaches than it does the actual rucks. Or at the very least, the connection between these two elements.

No specific "stoppage" coach on the books for 2022, so I imagine that'll be handled by Clarke and Voss himself. Hopefully a step up from Barker, and they'll have more time to prep than Power who took the role mid-season.

Shocked also to discover that we apparently didn't have a midfield coach in 2021?!



I mean....what the actual *, Carlton? Forward and back, yep. Stoppages, yep. But the only blokes with a specific midfield portfolio were the development coaches?


Back to the rucks. Gut feel is that you've gotta persist with TDK as much as humanly possible. Pitto is still young in ruck years, so could well improve, but I think TDK is the one that gives us a real point of difference and, should it click, a notable advantage.