Query First Grade Football – Thoughts and suggestions

[Lemon Boi]

The VFL/AFL has always been at the elite level, as in First Grade. So were state matches and the International Series.

Should these following eras also be considered First Grade?

VFA – 1877 to 1949 or 1960 (1950 throw-pass removed, 1961 split into two divisions)
SANFL – 1877 to 1990 (Adelaide Crows enter AFL in 1991)
WAFL – 1885 to 1986 (West Coast Eagles enter VFL in 1987)
Tasmania – ?

Under this consideration, Craig Bradley played 501 First Grade matches (98 for Port Adelaide, 19 for South Australia, 9 for Australia, and 375 for Carlton).

Thoughts and suggestions appreciated.

Cheers, Lemon Boi

 

[lehoa0911]

VFA - 1877 đến 1949 hoặc 1960 (đã loại bỏ năm 1950, 1961 tách thành hai bộ phận)
SANFL - 1877 đến 1990 (Quạ Quỷ nhập vào AFL năm 1991)
WAFL - 1885 đến 1986 (Đại bàng West Coast vào VFL năm 1987)
Tasmania -?
Congratulations, congratulations

 

[worbod]

The VFL/AFL has always been at the elite level, as in First Grade. So were state matches and the International Series.

Should these following eras also be considered First Grade?

VFA – 1877 to 1949 or 1960 (1950 throw-pass removed, 1961 split into two divisions)
SANFL – 1877 to 1990 (Adelaide Crows enter AFL in 1991)
WAFL – 1885 to 1986 (West Coast Eagles enter VFL in 1987)
Tasmania – ?

Under this consideration, Craig Bradley played 501 First Grade matches (98 for Port Adelaide, 19 for South Australia, 9 for Australia, and 375 for Carlton).

Thoughts and suggestions appreciated.

Cheers, Lemon Boi

I believe the entire duration of all major state competitions are regarded as First Grade or First Class. The SANFL and WAFL are still first class regardless of when a team from that particular state entered the AFL. All other major state comps are still first grade. I don't see why International Rules is classified as First Grade as it is a different sport. That ruling spoils the consistency of the classification. All preseason competition games are also first class: not practice games but games which are part of a structured preseason competition. Thus I would be adding Bradley's 27 AFL preseason games onto his career total.

 

[Gibbke]

All games which are part of the premier state comp should be considered first class no matter how much the top talent has been sucked out by AFL sides. The VFA can be included in this too, as well as the national night/pre-season series...the VFL had their own which is the one we all remember and love, and the NFL had one going for a few years in opposition in the late 1970's with no Victorians...then there was the Foxtel Cup...

We can call WAFL and SANFL matches Tier 2 for the sake of stratification, but they should count in any games tally with no restriction...

This applies to all mainland states. Sure, NSW and QLD were rubbish, but they were the top leagues in their states...

Tassie - everything up to the mid-80's for the three regions - TFL (1985), NTFA (1986) and NWFU (1987). Teams from these leagues regularly played against the Big Three sides, and racked up a fair few wins too. East Freo were belted by over 100 points by Hobart's Cananore once, and Launceston beat North Melbourne. Then it gets a bit difficult. The Statewide league from 1986-2000 and 2009-20 is obvious, but it's murky when considering the intervening 2001-08 period. There were two comps in Tassie, both containing the traditional top teams which had joined lower grade comps. I'd base it on the presence of these teams, meaning that the NTFL and STFL Premier comp were both top level in the period, but either side of it were the junior bodies to the statewide leagues...

And International Rules is an entirely different sport, further apart than limited overs and first class cricket which we'd never dream of combining...!

For the sake of the record books, we should have individual comp records, "first class" records, Australia-wide records and then a junior category...

 

[worbod]

All games which are part of the premier state comp should be considered first class no matter how much the top talent has been sucked out by AFL sides. The VFA can be included in this too, as well as the national night/pre-season series...the VFL had their own which is the one we all remember and love, and the NFL had one going for a few years in opposition in the late 1970's with no Victorians...then there was the Foxtel Cup...

We can call WAFL and SANFL matches Tier 2 for the sake of stratification, but they should count in any games tally with no restriction...

This applies to all mainland states. Sure, NSW and QLD were rubbish, but they were the top leagues in their states...

Tassie - everything up to the mid-80's for the three regions - TFL (1985), NTFA (1986) and NWFU (1987). Teams from these leagues regularly played against the Big Three sides, and racked up a fair few wins too. East Freo were belted by over 100 points by Hobart's Cananore once, and Launceston beat North Melbourne. Then it gets a bit difficult. The Statewide league from 1986-2000 and 2009-20 is obvious, but it's murky when considering the intervening 2001-08 period. There were two comps in Tassie, both containing the traditional top teams which had joined lower grade comps. I'd base it on the presence of these teams, meaning that the NTFL and STFL Premier comp were both top level in the period, but either side of it were the junior bodies to the statewide leagues...

And International Rules is an entirely different sport, further apart than limited overs and first class cricket which we'd never dream of combining...!

For the sake of the record books, we should have individual comp records, "first class" records, Australia-wide records and then a junior category...

This post is pretty much what I was trying to say in my previous post. Extremely well-written Gibbke. Obviously I have not read each of your 3,597 previous posts, but this would one would receive three Brownlow votes from me.
We should definitely not combine International Rules with Australian Football. I do not understand why the AFL combines these two sports when compiling their Most National Games at Senior Level section in the AFL Record Season Guide. Craig Bradley's 9 international games do not belong there, although if the AFL were consistent and included his 27 preseason/night games, his games total would still exceed 500.

 

[Gibbke]

This post is pretty much what I was trying to say in my previous post. Extremely well-written Gibbke. Obviously I have not read each of your 3,597 previous posts, but this would one would receive three Brownlow votes from me.
We should definitely not combine International Rules with Australian Football. I do not understand why the AFL combines these two sports when compiling their Most National Games at Senior Level section in the AFL Record Season Guide. Craig Bradley's 9 international games do not belong there, although if the AFL were consistent and included his 27 preseason/night games, his games total would still exceed 500.

Thanks man. 3597? Jeezuz, I do go on. The AFL's position on most things is promotional - even the name of the sport these days is a promotion for the elite comp ahead of actual history. So it's no surprise they've added a completely different (although very worthwhile and interesting in its own right) sport to these numbers simply because they run it and it's got the good players in it. Could be worse - they could have included AFLX matches!

 

[Wallaby]

It's an interesting Question. In general, I agree with the 'Premier League in the State' argument. I don't agree with the 'pre-season' competition, lightning premierships, Escort cups (even those featuring interstate sides playing each other) being included. If you are going with the 'Premier League in the State', I think you need to stick to the 'premier competition'. (I know the 'FA Cup' argument - but the FA Cup has a bit more history than the Wizard Home Loans cup).

Add the following points that require further argument:

SOO - definitely first-class (Including Allies).
State matches prior to SOO - definitely first-class, even though players were playing for their adopted states.
Non-SOO matches since introduction of SOO (1977?). - that's a hard one. I'm leaning towards 'yes'.
International Rules - definitely not. It's a different sport. That's like counting ODI records with Test Matches.
VFA - yes, up to 1897. No - at some point after 1897 (call Marc Fiddian). Yes after the VFL went National, I choose 1991, when the AFL had teams from every major football state (excl Tassie, of course), so the VFA (or VFL as it was re-named) became the premier state competition again.
NSW, Qld, ACT - not sure. I think no - while there was a premier Australian Rules competition in each state, they weren't the premier football competition in the state. Open to discussion.
Tasmania - definitely some yes - but when, why, how with the 3 leagues etc - that's way beyond my understanding and comprehension. Leave it to the locals (they should have it sorted in a few decades).

PS - all my answers are 100% correct, and so obviously right, they are not open to further questioning. (This could go for some time).

 

[worbod]

NSW, Qld, ACT - not sure. I think no - while there was a premier Australian Rules competition in each state, they weren't the premier football competition in the state. Open to discussion.

Whilst these competitions may not have been the premier football competitions in those states, do they not deserve to be considered a first grade level of Australian Football? If I am interpreting correctly what the OP is asking us to consider, I think NSW, Qld and ACT should definitely have their major Australian Football comps classified as first grade.

 

[Gibbke]

It's an interesting Question. In general, I agree with the 'Premier League in the State' argument. I don't agree with the 'pre-season' competition, lightning premierships, Escort cups (even those featuring interstate sides playing each other) being included. If you are going with the 'Premier League in the State', I think you need to stick to the 'premier competition'. (I know the 'FA Cup' argument - but the FA Cup has a bit more history than the Wizard Home Loans cup).

Add the following points that require further argument:

SOO - definitely first-class (Including Allies).
State matches prior to SOO - definitely first-class, even though players were playing for their adopted states.
Non-SOO matches since introduction of SOO (1977?). - that's a hard one. I'm leaning towards 'yes'.
International Rules - definitely not. It's a different sport. That's like counting ODI records with Test Matches.
VFA - yes, up to 1897. No - at some point after 1897 (call Marc Fiddian). Yes after the VFL went National, I choose 1991, when the AFL had teams from every major football state (excl Tassie, of course), so the VFA (or VFL as it was re-named) became the premier state competition again.
NSW, Qld, ACT - not sure. I think no - while there was a premier Australian Rules competition in each state, they weren't the premier football competition in the state. Open to discussion.
Tasmania - definitely some yes - but when, why, how with the 3 leagues etc - that's way beyond my understanding and comprehension. Leave it to the locals (they should have it sorted in a few decades).

PS - all my answers are 100% correct, and so obviously right, they are not open to further questioning. (This could go for some time).

1987 is the best year to start "national league" stats, due to actual infrastructure changes across footy. Nothing changed from 1990-91, just the addition of Adelaide, and the simple fact that a footy state like Tasmania is still in the wilderness negates the "completely national" stance you've taken there. Are you referring to Rugby League being the premier football comps in those three states you mention? Irrelevant - you could then make a case that only Australian rugby league records count as top tier in that sport, because every other country plays soccer as it's no.1 code, outside rugby union nations SA and NZ. I'd call the VFA first class, as it not only matched the VFL for quality in many decades, but is also the actual current VFL, which we are considering as a first class league. And Tassie...nah, that one will never be sorted and it's getting worse as time passes! I like my own theory above, as a Tasmanian who follows the local scene avidly even though it's 4000km away these days, but others could make valid differing arguments...!