Play Nice First transgender player in the AFLW

[Geelong_Sicko]

They should take an anonymous secret poll of ALL participents in the AFLW League (no repercussions for either 'yea' or 'nay'), just to see how many of them actively object.

You know, for interest.

 

[kirsti]

They should take an anonymous secret poll of ALL participents in the AFLW League (no repercussions for either 'yea' or 'nay'), just to see how many of them actively object.

You know, for interest.

The IOC did that in 2015 with the current transgender guidelines you can't have a vote on policies that affect every single athletes health male or female without scientific evidence the IOC and WADA were found to have breached the human rights of many female athletes during Kristen Worleys HR Victory in Toronto for doing this.

It would be more beneficial to ask other punters if they wish to keep learning about this subject.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

The IOC did that in 2015 with the current transgender guidelines you can't have a vote on policies that affect every single athletes health male or female without scrientific evidence the IOC and WADA were found to have breached the human rights of many female athletes during Kristen Worleys HR Victory in Toronto.

It would be more beneficial to ask other punters if they wish to keep learning about this subject.

Fair enough.

 

[kirsti]

Fair enough.

There are about 10 experts
in this field globally and I don't think any play AFLW

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

There are about 10 experts
in this field globally and I don't think any play AFLW

Maybe some homegrown experts will emerge. It's always good to have 'inside word' rather than just talking heads yakking about pure science that give us figures but little actual insight.

 

[kirsti]

Maybe some homegrown experts will emerge. It's always good to have 'inside word' rather than just talking heads yakking about pure science that give us figures but little actual insight.

A bit ironic that the AFLW celebrate their inaugural Pride Game when they don't include trans players in their competition.

 

[kirsti]

Maybe some homegrown experts will emerge. It's always good to have 'inside word' rather than just talking heads yakking about pure science that give us figures but little actual insight.

I am working with a number of international and Australian transitioned and transitioning athletes we are now being seen as equals in this conversation.

The next 12 months should see a clearer path of where sport is heading with this subject and I can assure you it isn't the IOC or WADA leading this conversation.

I have been an open book on big footy with this subject I hope it has helped people understand or atleast interest them enough to look for further information to improve their understanding of this complex issue.

 

[NoobPie]

A bit ironic that the AFLW celebrate their inaugural Pride Game when they don't include trans players in their competition.

Is that true? They knocked back one person and essentially signaled it was a pragmatic decision and she could apply again...or at least that was my interpretation?

 

[kirsti]

Is that true? They knocked back one person and essentially signaled it was a pragmatic decision and she could apply again...or at least that was my interpretation?

They deemed
Hannah was not a physical threat at the grassroots level but she was denied to play at the Elite
Level where the players are more developed.' The AFLW's decision was brand protection nothing else.

 

[NoobPie]

They deemed
Hannah was not a physical threat at the grassroots level but she was denied to play at the Elite
Level where the players are more developed.' The AFLW's decision was brand protection nothing else.

Like I said, it was a pragmatic decision. They didn't indicate "physical threat" as a factor in anything I read. They were probably worried about the optics of an over 6 foot transgender player who had represented her country in another sport as a man only a couple of years previously, playing in just the second season of a semi pro league. I suspect calling it "brand protection" makes it sound shallow but is a legitimate way of describing it

My personal view is that it was extraordinarily self-indulgent of her

 

[kirsti]

This is one of the best articles I have relating to this subject
http://www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/sports-longest-injustice-scheduled-demolition/

 

[kirsti]

Like I said, it was a pragmatic decision. They didn't indicate "physical threat" as a factor in anything I read. They were probably worried about the optics of an over 6 foot transgender player who had represented her country in another sport as a man only a couple of years previously, playing in just the second season of a semi pro league. I suspect calling it "brand protection" makes it sound shallow but is a legitimate way of describing it

My personal view is that it was extraordinarily self-indulgent of her

I don't agree with how the AFLW made their decision or the decision they made.

Hannah yes has been all about Hannah blaming the AFL for every problem in her life.

Hannah needs to walk away from
Elite level of sport let her body adjust and feminise thumping fists and cries of discrimination by Hannah isn't helping the
Conversation at all.

 

[kirsti]

http://www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/sports-gender-policies-an-affront-to-human-rights/

 

[owen87]

http://www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/sports-gender-policies-an-affront-to-human-rights/

The question that comes to my mind; is human rights relevant in deciding whether or not an individual can compete as a female?

We don’t categorise by height or shoe size - though sports such as boxing DO categorise by weight - so conflating that with gender is a misnomer.

There’s basically two categories of sport; women (strict bounds as to who can compete) and ‘men’ (everyone else). Without continually subdividing categories - e.g men with testosterone levels between 10 and 15 nmol/L etc... - we do need to draw a line somewhere.

Is it reasonable to claim human rights are impeding when the individual chooses to participate in elite sport, chooses to have the gender reassignment surgery, and chooses to abide by the rules and hormone levels in place?

And even if so, is it reasonable to allow that person to compete alongside women who fall into the normal bounds of hormone levels?

It’s a complex question.

 

[kirsti]

The question that comes to my mind; is human rights relevant in deciding whether or not an individual can compete as a female?

We don’t categorise by height or shoe size - though sports such as boxing DO categorise by weight - so conflating that with gender is a misnomer.

There’s basically two categories of sport; women (strict bounds as to who can compete) and ‘men’ (everyone else). Without continually subdividing categories - e.g men with testosterone levels between 10 and 15 nmol/L etc... - we do need to draw a line somewhere.

Is it reasonable to claim human rights are impeding when the individual chooses to participate in elite sport, chooses to have the gender reassignment surgery, and chooses to abide by the rules and hormone levels in place?

And even if so, is it reasonable to allow that person to compete alongside women who fall into the normal bounds of hormone levels?

It’s a complex question.

This is an interesting view;



and another

https://www.playbytherules.net.au/resources/videos/peter-hyndal

 

[jatz14]

This is one of the best articles I have relating to this subject
http://www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/sports-longest-injustice-scheduled-demolition/

That is an interesting read.

Lots of things in there I didn't know.
Summary for those that do not read it.

Female XX bodies have testosterone receptors that are more sensitive to testosterone than male bodies. Transgender athletes with the same testosterone levels as women are therefore, testosterone deficient. Transgender athletes with the testosterone levels required by the IOC actually become sick, and unable to perform sport at all (the basis of law suits against them).

The real competitive advantage may lie with XX women transitioning to male. They retain the more sensitive receptors, but can take levels of testosterone that put them well into the high range for men, effectively supercharging them.

Testosterones effect on sports performance may be overstated. There have been several women with androgen insensitivity syndrome with complete insensitivity make it to elite sport. How? You could give these women a bucket of testosterone, it would have zero effect, yet they became high performance athletes.

Elite female athletes tend to have high testosterone, and it can teach normal male levels. Forcing trans women to lower their testosterone to below what is the normal women's range, when their bodies require more testosterone than XX bodies for it to have the same effect, while women are competing in the same sport with male levels of testosterone seems contradictory.

The more I read, the more confusing it gets.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[eastfreo75]

That is an interesting read.

Lots of things in there I didn't know.
Summary for those that do not read it.

Female XX bodies have testosterone receptors that are more sensitive to testosterone than male bodies. Transgender athletes with the same testosterone levels as women are therefore, testosterone deficient. Transgender athletes with the testosterone levels required by the IOC actually become sick, and unable to perform sport at all (the basis of law suits against them).

The real competitive advantage may lie with XX women transitioning to male. They retain the more sensitive receptors, but can take levels of testosterone that put them well into the high range for men, effectively supercharging them.

Testosterones effect on sports performance may be overstated. There have been several women with androgen insensitivity syndrome with complete insensitivity make it to elite sport. How? You could give these women a bucket of testosterone, it would have zero effect, yet they became high performance athletes.

Elite female athletes tend to have high testosterone, and it can teach normal male levels. Forcing trans women to lower their testosterone to below what is the normal women's range, when their bodies require more testosterone than XX bodies for it to have the same effect, while women are competing in the same sport with male levels of testosterone seems contradictory.

The more I read, the more confusing it gets.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

It is a very confusing issue.

 

[kirsti]

That is an interesting read.

Lots of things in there I didn't know.
Summary for those that do not read it.

Female XX bodies have testosterone receptors that are more sensitive to testosterone than male bodies. Transgender athletes with the same testosterone levels as women are therefore, testosterone deficient. Transgender athletes with the testosterone levels required by the IOC actually become sick, and unable to perform sport at all (the basis of law suits against them).

The real competitive advantage may lie with XX women transitioning to male. They retain the more sensitive receptors, but can take levels of testosterone that put them well into the high range for men, effectively supercharging them.

Testosterones effect on sports performance may be overstated. There have been several women with androgen insensitivity syndrome with complete insensitivity make it to elite sport. How? You could give these women a bucket of testosterone, it would have zero effect, yet they became high performance athletes.

Elite female athletes tend to have high testosterone, and it can teach normal male levels. Forcing trans women to lower their testosterone to below what is the normal women's range, when their bodies require more testosterone than XX bodies for it to have the same effect, while women are competing in the same sport with male levels of testosterone seems contradictory.

The more I read, the more confusing it gets.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

You have summarised the article perfectly Kristen's case has identified what is wrong with current policies whilst also showing how it's not all about endogenous testosterone levels it is far more then that.

How sport is structured in the future will be interesting sports now can't introduce policies that are solely human rights focused especially those policies that adversely affects the health of athletes.

Chris Mossier is one of the super doped XX Males you refer too

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/24/...te-chris-mosier-pose-espn-magazine-body-issue.

 

[kirsti]

It is a very confusing issue.

.

We now know that an XY chromosome body takes six to eight times the level of testosterone to equate the same levels of ‘health’ as somebody who is XX”, . “This is completely separate to the body’s sex”.

The problem has been that sport failed to realise that XY women continue to need XY levels of testosterone in order to maintain basic health following transition. Instead, it required XY females to peg their testosterone levels to the much lower XX female levels, due to the myth that XY females would enjoy a performance advantage due to their extra endogenous testosterone.

In effect, sport was blinded by its history with exogenous testosterone, which has historically been used to enhance performance.

Kristen is prettt clear hear but this
relates to transitioned not transitioning XY Females.

“This is where everybody got it wrong and continues to get it wrong”, explains Worley. “We are the only athletes in the world that can medically illustrate, physiologically, how the body breaks down over time and what happens to the human physiology when testosterone values get down to a certain level or is removed, and the body is no longer able to generate any hormones. For all other athletes that have been discussed in this space, their testosterone levels are their ‘normal’, and they are healthy.”[/QUOTE]

 

[kirsti]

Who would have thought we would hit 100 pages and I still have my sanity

 

[Blackhawk42]

I have zero issue with Hanna Mouncey's size vs the other girls. It can't be any worse than Aaron Sandilands vs Caleb Daniel.

What I DO have a problem with is a human being who has been physically and mentally male for 90% of their lives and physically male for 100% of their life trying to play a WOMENS sport. At it's highest level. In only it's second season. It would have automatically brought the concept of a women's AFL league into disrepute.

Now, hear me out for a second. If Callum/Hannah Mouncey as a human being had taken this action sooner in her life, (let's say 10 years ago), and went through 10 years of hormone replacements, 10 years of living as a physical woman, AND had surgery to prove her need to change, then I would have no issue with her or any other transgender athlete playing in the AFLW. HOWEVER, there MUST be a definitive line drawn somewhere when it comes to this topic. Someone who spent 26 years living as a legitimate male and within 2 years is calling on an elite female competition to include them IS that line.

 

[kirsti]

I have zero issue with Hanna Mouncey's size vs the other girls. It can't be any worse than Aaron Sandilands vs Caleb Daniel.

What I DO have a problem with is a human being who has been physically and mentally male for 90% of their lives and physically male for 100% of their life trying to play a WOMENS sport. At it's highest level. In only it's second season. It would have automatically brought the concept of a women's AFL league into disrepute.

Now, hear me out for a second. If Callum/Hannah Mouncey as a human being had taken this action sooner in her life, (let's say 10 years ago), and went through 10 years of hormone replacements, 10 years of living as a physical woman, AND had surgery to prove her need to change, then I would have no issue with her or any other transgender athlete playing in the AFLW. HOWEVER, there MUST be a definitive line drawn somewhere when it comes to this topic. Someone who spent 26 years living as a legitimate male and within 2 years is calling on an elite female competition to include them IS that line.

The IAAF have had two and a half years to find that line,'they haven't yet.

But I agree Hannah isn't suitable to
Play at the elite level yet and even more so at the state or local level where the players are less developed.

If Hannah continues to transition she may minimise her advantage enough in a few years but until fully transitioned it is going to take her
much longer then some due to;
Her age at time of transition;
Her former transition physique is way above the average male and she was a HP athlete prior to and during her transition.

 

[Wackajack]

Transgenders represent less than 1% of the populace but are leveraged by the cultural Marxists as part of another front in the war on religion (as evidenced by same-sex marriage - which is the thin end of the wedge: the gay activists are only interested in same-sex marriage per se as a tool for the deconstruction and destruction of Christian values, and indeed of the deconstruction of the whole Greco-Christian core belief system which helps define Western civilization).

Someone has been listening to too much Ben Shapiro. The sooner "Christian values" are destroyed the better. Same-sex marriage shouldn't be an issue for anyone who is not gay, 'derr my religion thou' is not an argument against same-sex marriage. Western culture has grown out of that middle aged thinking.

 

[Snake_Baker]

The question that comes to my mind; is human rights relevant in deciding whether or not an individual can compete as a female?

We don’t categorise by height or shoe size - though sports such as boxing DO categorise by weight - so conflating that with gender is a misnomer.

There’s basically two categories of sport; women (strict bounds as to who can compete) and ‘men’ (everyone else). Without continually subdividing categories - e.g men with testosterone levels between 10 and 15 nmol/L etc... - we do need to draw a line somewhere.

Is it reasonable to claim human rights are impeding when the individual chooses to participate in elite sport, chooses to have the gender reassignment surgery, and chooses to abide by the rules and hormone levels in place?

And even if so, is it reasonable to allow that person to compete alongside women who fall into the normal bounds of hormone levels?

It’s a complex question.

The overwhelming majority of arguments in the "pro" camp are based upon sociological constructs.

Take for example the videolink provided above:

This is an interesting view;



and another

https://www.playbytherules.net.au/resources/videos/peter-hyndal

Dr Rachel McKinnon's training is in philosophy and her methods are based on autoethnography guidelines. Basically, it's sociology.

Dr Rachel McKinnon has no training in medicine, endocrinology, biology or biochemistry or even sports science.

 

[kirsti]

Mack Beggs, an 18 year old XX transitioning male wrestler (born as a female transitioning to a male) from Euless Trinity High School near Dallas, defended his Texan State Title in Cypress near Houston winning the girls' class 6A 110- pound (49kg) division with an undefeated record. He beat Chelsea Sanchez, who he had defeated for the title in 2017, in the final match on Saturday.

Following Beggs' win the usual cheers reserved for an undefeated winner were not forth coming. Video posted online within minutes of Beggs winning showed a mix of cheers and boos from the crowd.
Why the boos for such an outstanding win one might ask. There is no doubt that his transitioning status from female to male and his approved Therapeutic Use Exception (TUE) for low doses of testosterone were the reasons why the same accolades for other winners didn't follow to Beggs.
When Beggs' victory hit social media the usual transphobic hate was rife with a majority of posters vilifying Beggs for his transgender status with a large percentage incorrectly identifying him as a biological male transitioning into a female which is the complete opposite to the truth, Mack Beggs was born a biological female.
There is no other story that incites as much hate as a transgender person participating in sport with the exception of stories relating to transgender bathroom use or stories relating to President Trumps' hate for transgender military personnel.

To Beggs' credit he has responded to the boos and online hate with class. Over the last two years this brave young man has matured into a role model for other gender diverse people his story has become global he is inspiring other trans people to give sport a go, to be themselves and to never give up.

Both Beggs and his family have repeatedly said he wants to wrestle with the other boys but Texan State Laws prevent him from
doing so. Beggs is forced to fight the girls and to use the female bathrooms he has no choice in this matter. The birth certificate rule in Texas was approved in 2016 by the University Interscholastic League, the governing body for Texas high school sports. It was done in order to help schools determine competition, said Jamie Harrison, the UIL’s deputy director.

The State laws in Texas are in stark contrast to most other transgender Sports policies. Chris Mossier, of TransAthelete.com, said because of the vote and its passing, "Texas now becomes one of the most restrictive states in the nation for transgender athletic participation."

If Mack Beggs were to compete beyond the school system in Texas ie; the Olympics Games or Commonwealth Games he would have to compete in the men's division.

As an XX transitioning male, Beggs still has female androgen receptors ie (ovaries) with XX receptors being 6 to 8 times more sensitive then XY receptors (gonads). Beggs says he is only administered small amounts of exogenous testosterone. Even with small amounts of testosterone and with Beggs' androgen receptors being highly sensitive to testosterone he is effectively super doping. His physical changes even in the last 12 months have shown Beggs to have masculinised significantly.

The current IOC participation guidelines were amended in 2015. These new guidelines enable XX transitioning males like Beggs to compete unrestricted in the Males competition. We are already seeing the performance enhancement affects achieved by XX transitioning males in the short time that the amended IOC Guidelines have been in place. We are seeing XX Males like Chris Mossier competing equally with and sometimes beating XY Males in particular in endurance events. Mossier is a current member of the USA National Men's Duathon Team. I predict in another generation of XX transitioning males especially those that start testosterone early in their teens they will be super competitive in men's endurance events.

Beggs and his HRT treatment are a polar opposite HRT regime to what I and other XY Transitioning and transitioned females (male to female) are administered. Where as Beggs and other transitioning XX males are given performance enhancing drugs those transitioning from female to male are administered extremely powerful performance dehancing medications the same drugs that are used to chemically castrate sex offenders the the same drugs that treat prostate cancer sufferers.

XY Transitioning females are lowering and eventually stopping permanently their production of testosterone eventually leaving an XY transitioned female in complete androgen deprivation.

Whilst XX transitioning males that take performance enhancing drugs are being applauded for their wins ( with the exception of Beggs) the XY transitioning female athletes are facing intense hate even though they are the athletes being administered performance dehancing drugs. XY female athletes are also fighting the "advantage myth" ie all males are better then all females in sport. Most that object to XY females competing in women's sport fail to consider the physiological and psychological changes that occur when an XY male transitions into an XY female.

I have no doubt that XX transitioning males will be accepted into males sport with them not only competing they will push the boys to the limits in distance events and unlike in Texas these boys will be not be booed like Beggs was due to outdated Texan Policies forcing him to unfairly compete with the XX girls.

I believe fully transitioned XY Females (male to female) that have undergone gender surgery can compete equally with XX females. XY women (fully transitioned) are the only athletes competing unhealthy in a complete androgen deprivation state and well beyond a (post menopause state). Incredibly unhealthy and spore eventually becomes impossible as the body deteriorates as it cannot respond to day-to-day functions without androgens as the bodies primary communications and regulator hormone.

Having started my life as an XX Male and living the first 35'years of my life as a male, I have experienced the massive physical and psychological changes that have occurred to my body over the last 18years when I commenced my transition into a woman I was around 10okg a former male dual international sportsman, a former Prison Boss a rugged country bloke. My physique has altered greatly reducing my weight to 60 kg some 40 kg less then my pre transition days. I feel massively weaker, I have suffered tremendous muscle atrophy and I am suffering osteoporosis something my two female elder siblings have not suffered my strength and endurance levels are a shadow of my former self.

I am only one person who has lived and breathed these changes and I am not saying I am the expert on this subject,'if there is actually an expert in all of this. To move forward we need to have respectful conversations we need to listen and talk to each other not booing or abusing youngsters like Beggs who are already doing it hard enough without the transphobic hate. Trans sport participation is a work in progress hopefully Beggs brave stance throughout the abuse and boos can be a teachable moment for us all.