Play Nice First transgender player in the AFLW

[kirsti]

We have posted over 2500 comments in this thread and I am still here with my sanity. I would like to try and take this conversation further, I suggest we need to look at this complex and contentious subject from another angle. We all have given our views most having black or white opinions. There have been some amazing contributions from many posters, I am learning a lot through this thread. We have also had our share of boofheads, transgender posts can bring out the worst in some people.

I would like to focus on the actual known sciences, and the medical & surgical procedures an XY Male goes through to transition into an XY Female and if we can determine how any of these procedures relate to performance in sports. I also suggest we look at the role testosterone plays in all of this. Finally and only once we have discussed the science and facts then we should look at the human right and anti discrimination considerations.

Down the track I would like this thread to develop a trans participation policy together, maybe Big Footy can become world leaders in all if this.

The two main areas of transitioning for a transgender person involves, hormone replacement therapy and gender reassignment surgery.

HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_(male-to-female)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyproterone_acetate

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrogen_(medication)

Feminizing hormone therapy for transgender women or people; consists of estrogens and anti-androgens
Masculinizing hormone therapy for transgender men or transmasculine people; consists of androgens.

Hormone replacement therapy, typical symptoms (similar to those experienced by menopausal women) include hot flashes, gradual bone-density loss resulting in osteopenia or osteoporosis, and potential weight gain or redistribution of body fat to the hips/chest. Replacement of testosterone in the form of gel, patches, or injections can largely reverse these effects, although breast enlargement has also been reported as a possible side effect of testosterone usage.

GENDER REASSIGNMENT SURGERY
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castration

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery

The array of medically indicated surgeries differs between trans women (male to female) and trans men (female to male). For trans women, genital reconstruction usually involves the surgical construction of a vagina, by means of penile inversion or the sigmoid colon neovagina technique; or, more recently, non-penile inversion techniques that provide greater resemblance to the genitals of cisgender women. For trans men, genital reconstruction may involve construction of a penis through either phalloplasty or /Metoidioplasty'. For both trans women and trans men, genital surgery may also involve other medically necessary ancillary procedures, such as orchiectomy, penectomy; mastectomy or vaginectomy.

Gender reassignment surgery (GRS) for as XY female involves being surgically castrated a bilateral orchiectomy is performed (both testicles are removed). Asubject of castration who is altered before the onset of puberty will retain a high voice, non-muscular build, and small genitals. He may well be taller than average, as the production of sex hormones in puberty—more specifically, estrogen via aromatization of testosterone—stops long bone growth. The person may not develop pubic hair and will have a small sex drive or none at all.

Castrations after the onset of puberty will typically reduce the sex drive considerably or eliminate it altogether. Castrated people are automatically sterile because the testes(for males) and ovaries (for females) produce sex cells needed for sexual reproduction. Once removed, the subject is infertile. The voice does not change. Some castrated people report mood changes, such as depression or a more serene outlook on life, although this might not be due to chemical changes but instead emotional changes due to the implications of the procedure. Body strength and muscle mass can decrease somewhat. Body hair may sometimes decrease. Castration prevents male pattern baldness if it is done before hair is lost. However, castration will not restore hair growth after hair has already been lost due to male pattern baldness.

Historically, many eunuchs who additionally underwent a penectomy reportedly suffered from urinary incontinence associated with the removal of the penis.

A study conducted at a mental institution in Kansas, where a large number of male inmates had been castrated, found that the eunuchs lived an average of 14 years longer than the uncastrated men. A similar study of 81 historical eunuchs in Korea's royal court found a 14 to 19 year increase in lifespan compared to intact men of similar socioeconomic background; these eunuchs had a rate of over 3%

 

[kirsti]

XY women (fully transitioned) are the only athletes competing unhealthy in a complete androgen deprivation state and well beyond a (post menopause state). Incredibly unhealthy and spore eventually becomes impossible as the body deteriorates as it cannot respond to day-to-day functions without androgens as the bodies primary communications and regulator hormone.

Moreover and important, the XY transitioned female is the only body that can show the health and key markers where the body turns on then off, as the body loses its ability to regulate androgens.

Which then causes complete androgen deprivation of the human body, heavily contraindicates it as testosterone plays over 200 functions in the body every single day separate of the sex of the physiology.

http://www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/sports-longest-injustice-scheduled-demolition/

What are androgens?
Hormones are chemical messengers made by glands in the body that are carried in the blood to act on other organs in the body. Hormones are needed for growth, reproduction and well-being.

Androgens are male sex hormones that increase at puberty and are needed for a boy to develop into a sexually mature adult who can reproduce. The most important androgen is testosterone.

What is testosterone?
Testosterone is the most important androgen (male sex hormone) in men and it is needed for normal reproductive and sexual function. Testosterone is important for the physical changes that happen during male puberty, such as development of the penis and testes, and for the features typical of adult men such as facial and body hair. Testosterone also acts on cells in the testes to make sperm.

Testosterone is also important for overall good health. It helps the growth of bones and muscles, and affects mood and libido (sex drive). Some testosterone is changed into oestrogen, the female sex hormone, and this is important for bone health in men. Testosterone is mainly made in the testes. A small amount of testosterone is also made by the adrenal glands, which are walnut-sized glands that sit on top of the kidneys.

How do hormones control the testes?
The pituitary gland and the hypothalamus, located at the base of the brain, control the production of male hormones and sperm. Luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) are the two important messenger hormones made by the pituitary gland that act on the testes.

LH is needed for the Leydig cells in the testes to make testosterone, the male sex hormone. Testosterone and FSH from the pituitary gland then act together on the seminiferous tubules (sperm-producing tubes) in the testes to make sperm.

What is androgen (or testosterone) deficiency?
Androgen, or testosterone, deficiency is when the body is not able to make enough testosterone for the body to function normally. Although not a life-threatening problem, androgen deficiency can affect your quality of life.

How common is androgen deficiency?
Androgen deficiency due to diseases of the testes or hypothalamus-pituitary affects about one in 200 men under 60 years of age. It is likely that androgen deficiency is under-diagnosed and that many men are missing out on the benefits of treatment. About one in 10 older men may have testosterone levels lower than those in young men, but this is usually linked with chronic illness and obesity. The benefits of testosterone treatment for such men are not yet known.

How does ageing affect testosterone levels?
Testosterone levels in men are highest between the ages of 20 and 30 years. As men age there is a small, gradual drop in testosterone levels; they may drop by up to one third between 30 and 80 years of age.

Some men will have a greater drop in testosterone levels as they age, especially when they are obese or have other chronic (long-term) medical problems. On the other hand, healthy older men with normal body weight may not experience any drop in serum testosterone levels.

There is no such thing as ‘male menopause’ or ‘andropause’ that can be compared to menopause in women.

What are the symptoms of androgen deficiency?
Low energy levels, mood swings, irritability, poor concentration, reduced muscle strength and low sex drive can be symptoms of androgen deficiency (low testosterone). Symptoms often overlap with those of other
illnesses. The symptoms of androgen deficiency are different for men of different ages.

Stages Of lifePossible symptoms
Early childhood• Penis and testes do not grow to expected size
Early teenage years (puberty)• Failure to go through full normal puberty
• Poor development of facial, body or pubic hair
• Poor muscle development
• Voice does not deepen • Poorgrowth(height)surge
• Breast development (gynaecomastia)
Adulthood• Mood changes (low mood and irritability)
• Poor concentration
• Low energy
• Reduced muscle strength
• Increased body fat
• Longer time to recover from exercise
• Decreased libido (low interest in sex)
• Difficulty getting and keeping erections
• Low semen volume
• Reduced beard or body hair growth
• Breast development (gynaecomastia)
• Hot flushes, sweats
• Osteoporosis (thinning of bones)
Later life (after 60 years)• Mood changes (low mood and irritability)
• Poor concentration
• Easily fatigued
• Poor muscle strength
• Increased body fat
• Decreased libido (low interest in sex)
• Difficulty getting and keeping erections
• Breast development (gynaecomastia)
• Osteoporosis (thinning of bones)
What causes androgen deficiency?
Androgen deficiency can be caused by genetic disorders, medical problems, or damage to the testes or pituitary gland. Androgen deficiency happens when there are problems within the testes or with hormone production in the brain. A common chromosomal disorder that causes androgen deficiency is Klinefelter’s syndrome.

https://www.andrologyaustralia.org/your-health/testosterone/

 

[sprockets]

Kirsti, is it reasonable to suggest, given the medical problems associated with ts athletes due to drug rules (and other issues), that attempting to fit into current gender based sport should be discouraged?

 

[Wackajack]

That seems to be a lot of scientific gymnastics to try and get around something that should be quite simple. Males vs males, females v females, as determined by what you were born as not what you transitioned to.

I understand that some individuals are born and believe they are a different gender, that's fine, but if that is the case, elite competitive sport may not be your calling in life as much as you want it to be. Can you still play sport? Of course, there are mixed competitions everywhere.

 

[strung_out7]

That seems to be a lot of scientific gymnastics to try and get around something that should be quite simple. Males vs males, females v females, as determined by what you were born as not what you transitioned to.

I understand that some individuals are born and believe they are a different gender, that's fine, but if that is the case, elite competitive sport may not be your calling in life as much as you want it to be. Can you still play sport? Of course, there are mixed competitions everywhere.

Exactly, if you want to become a trans athlete, simple, don't become trans.

 

[Furn2]

That seems to be a lot of scientific gymnastics to try and get around something that should be quite simple. Males vs males, females v females, as determined by what you were born as not what you transitioned to.

I understand that some individuals are born and believe they are a different gender, that's fine, but if that is the case, elite competitive sport may not be your calling in life as much as you want it to be. Can you still play sport? Of course, there are mixed competitions everywhere.

Yep! as a Scientist the more I read the clearer it becomes that the IOC has made a politic decision and then cherry picked the facts it needed to back up that decision.

You don't need to look any further this ridiculous idea that men are 10-12% better than women, while there's no mention of the over 3000 different gene expressions not affected by testosterone.

 

[kirsti]

Yep! as a Scientist the more I read the clearer it becomes that the IOC has made a politic decision and then cherry picked the facts it needed to back up that decision.

You don't need to look any further this ridiculous idea that men are 10-12% better than women, while there's no mention of the over 3000 different gene expressions not affected by testosterone.

There is no doubt the IOC's decision was not based on science.

http://www.sportsintegrityinitiativ...ports-attempt-to-dead-cat-a-debate-on-gender/

 

[Snake_Baker]

There is no doubt the IOC's decision was not based on science.

http://www.sportsintegrityinitiativ...ports-attempt-to-dead-cat-a-debate-on-gender/

This is a good article as this subject goes, and although I wouldn't necessarily agree with some of the authors conclusions, it accurately represents the mess that occurs when political agendas run head on in to science.

 

[GEEitLONG]

This subject has turned me off womens footy, and I BET IM NOT THE ONLY ONE!! Last season I watched nearly every game. This year I haven't watched one! Its made me feel very negative towards the game and I wondered why. I realised i don't want to get interested in it because soon it will be ruined by the left and their societal sabotage / anti family politics.

I don't want to watch men in skirts pretend they are women and compete against REAL WOMEN! A BLOKE IN A SKIRT IS STILL A BLOKE IN A SKIRT!

Just for interests sake... how are viewer and fan numbers for womens footy this season?

.

 

[chiwigi]

This subject has turned me off womens footy, and I BET IM NOT THE ONLY ONE!! Last season I watched nearly every game. This year I haven't watched one! Its made me feel very negative towards the game and I wondered why. I realised i don't want to get interested in it because soon it will be ruined by the left and their societal sabotage / anti family politics.

I don't want to watch men in skirts pretend they are women and compete against REAL WOMEN! A BLOKE IN A SKIRT IS STILL A BLOKE IN A SKIRT!

Just for interests sake... how are viewer and fan numbers for womens footy this season?

.

Looks like you've found your excuse not to watch, even though this hasn't happened.

 

[jatz14]

This subject has turned me off womens footy, and I BET IM NOT THE ONLY ONE!! Last season I watched nearly every game. This year I haven't watched one! Its made me feel very negative towards the game and I wondered why. I realised i don't want to get interested in it because soon it will be ruined by the left and their societal sabotage / anti family politics.

I don't want to watch men in skirts pretend they are women and compete against REAL WOMEN! A BLOKE IN A SKIRT IS STILL A BLOKE IN A SKIRT!

Just for interests sake... how are viewer and fan numbers for womens footy this season?

.

As good as a lot of men's sport.

Sent from my Lenovo TB3-710F using Tapatalk

 

[MightyFighting]

I've found the public discussion of this issue to be quite interesting, not least because of how little of it there is. It seems that most people just don't want to discuss it. I do wonder, however, what Hannah Mouncey's supporters are hoping to achieve, or why so many refuse to even recognise that it is not a simple issue. (Even an editorial in The Age said, "The AFLW is a women’s competition, and Hannah Mouncey is a woman, so what’s the problem?")

I can only assume that many are concerned that if they concede that there is a fundamental difference between trans and cis people that should preclude trans-women from competing against cis-women in some circumstances, that we'll then be back to arguing about bathrooms and pronouns and so on. However, this needed follow, because competitive sport is clearly a special and unique case in which the inclusion trans-women in a space intended for people with female bodies significantly disadvantages the cis-women it was intended to empower. In all other examples that I can think of, including trans-women in a women's space does no harm.

I suspect that there is also a problem with the way gender transitions are commonly described in popular culture. In particular, the use of the term "sex change" gives the impression that a far more thorough biological change is possible than is actually the case. I think it's compounded by the fact that in popular culture, testosterone and estrogen have been somewhat mythologised, to the point that they have come to be seen as the very essence of gender, as if gender itself could be stored in a bottle and kept on a shelf. This seems to have led some to conclude that so long as Mouncey's testosterone levels are low enough, there is no issue. But biology is never anywhere near that simple.

While it would greatly simplify the lives of many people if we could somehow transform their bodies into what they would have been had they been born the other gender, this is well beyond our technology. What hormone replacement seeks to do instead is simply give people some secondary gender identifiers of the gender they identify with (so breasts for a woman, a deeper voice and facial hair for a man, etc.) These changes are often small and are also augmented by surgeries. The process is not designed to place people physically on a par with the gender they identify with.

Now, to their credit, not all of Mouncey's supporters deny that her birth gender affords her a significant advantage over her cis-female opponents. Instead, they argue that this is an innate advantage that everyone should just accept, like any other natural advantage a person may have. That's fair enough, but they may be underestimating just how much of an advantage we are talking about.

Several people who have seen Mouncey play, including her former coach, have defended her right to play against cis-women by pointing out that she’s not very fast, and therefore would not dominate the AFLW. Given that she was only named as an emergency for the Canberra league representative team, they are no doubt right. But what they are really saying is that Mouncey is actually a pretty ordinary footballer, who is only on the AFLW’s radar because of her unusual size for a woman.

But this issue isn’t really about Mouncey who, on past history, is unlikely to be drafted if ever allowed, let alone actually play an AFLW game. It’s about the future of the league. Those who suggest that the AFLW could someday become swamped by trans-women are probably overstating the issue, since there just aren’t very many trans people around and probably never will be. But what is likely is that at some point, significantly better footballers than Mouncey will go through a gender transition. A reasonably good footballer who has played at VFL level, or who has been on an AFL team’s list for a year or two would dominate the AFLW in a way that no cis-woman ever could.

During the first season of the AFLW, a lot of people talked about how girls could now dream of growing up to be football stars. However, if made to compete against trans-women, they’ll know that even in the women's league true stardom will always be beyond them, simply because they were not born a boy. Moreover, I don't think it would be beneficial to trans-people either, since having cis and trans women competing together would only have the effect of highlighting the very real and inescapable physical differences between the two. And more importantly, by setting the interests of trans-women in opposition to those of cis-women, it provides exactly the sort of issue that any trans-exclusive feminists would seek to exploit.

 

[chiwigi]

I've found the public discussion of this issue to be quite interesting, not least because of how little of it there is. It seems that most people just don't want to discuss it. I do wonder, however, what Hannah Mouncey's supporters are hoping to achieve, or why so many refuse to even recognise that it is not a simple issue. (Even an editorial in The Age said, "The AFLW is a women’s competition, and Hannah Mouncey is a woman, so what’s the problem?")

I can only assume that many are concerned that if they concede that there is a fundamental difference between trans and cis people that should preclude trans-women from competing against cis-women in some circumstances, that we'll then be back to arguing about bathrooms and pronouns and so on. However, this needed follow, because competitive sport is clearly a special and unique case in which the inclusion trans-women in a space intended for people with female bodies significantly disadvantages the cis-women it was intended to empower. In all other examples that I can think of, including trans-women in a women's space does no harm.

I suspect that there is also a problem with the way gender transitions are commonly described in popular culture. In particular, the use of the term "sex change" gives the impression that a far more thorough biological change is possible than is actually the case. I think it's compounded by the fact that in popular culture, testosterone and estrogen have been somewhat mythologised, to the point that they have come to be seen as the very essence of gender, as if gender itself could be stored in a bottle and kept on a shelf. This seems to have led some to conclude that so long as Mouncey's testosterone levels are low enough, there is no issue. But biology is never anywhere near that simple.

While it would greatly simplify the lives of many people if we could somehow transform their bodies into what they would have been had they been born the other gender, this is well beyond our technology. What hormone replacement seeks to do instead is simply give people some secondary gender identifiers of the gender they identify with (so breasts for a woman, a deeper voice and facial hair for a man, etc.) These changes are often small and are also augmented by surgeries. The process is not designed to place people physically on a par with the gender they identify with.

Now, to their credit, not all of Mouncey's supporters deny that her birth gender affords her a significant advantage over her cis-female opponents. Instead, they argue that this is an innate advantage that everyone should just accept, like any other natural advantage a person may have. That's fair enough, but they may be underestimating just how much of an advantage we are talking about.

Several people who have seen Mouncey play, including her former coach, have defended her right to play against cis-women by pointing out that she’s not very fast, and therefore would not dominate the AFLW. Given that she was only named as an emergency for the Canberra league representative team, they are no doubt right. But what they are really saying is that Mouncey is actually a pretty ordinary footballer, who is only on the AFLW’s radar because of her unusual size for a woman.

But this issue isn’t really about Mouncey who, on past history, is unlikely to be drafted if ever allowed, let alone actually play an AFLW game. It’s about the future of the league. Those who suggest that the AFLW could someday become swamped by trans-women are probably overstating the issue, since there just aren’t very many trans people around and probably never will be. But what is likely is that at some point, significantly better footballers than Mouncey will go through a gender transition. A reasonably good footballer who has played at VFL level, or who has been on an AFL team’s list for a year or two would dominate the AFLW in a way that no cis-woman ever could.

During the first season of the AFLW, a lot of people talked about how girls could now dream of growing up to be football stars. However, if made to compete against trans-women, they’ll know that even in the women's league true stardom will always be beyond them, simply because they were not born a boy. Moreover, I don't think it would be beneficial to trans-people either, since having cis and trans women competing together would only have the effect of highlighting the very real and inescapable physical differences between the two. And more importantly, by setting the interests of trans-women in opposition to those of cis-women, it provides exactly the sort of issue that any trans-exclusive feminists would seek to exploit.

I rthink you hit the nail on the head early on. Many who see it as a black and white issue (bigfooty discussion withstanding) in the greater community are not sports people, have never played and don't really have an interest in sport, other than the rights of the individual. These people then miss the point that it isn't about depriving transgender people, but about keeping it fair for those already playing the game who cannot in any way share the benefits of growing up male (in this instance).

 

[MightyFighting]

I rthink you hit the nail on the head early on. Many who see it as a black and white issue (bigfooty discussion withstanding) in the greater community are not sports people, have never played and don't really have an interest in sport, other than the rights of the individual. These people then miss the point that it isn't about depriving transgender people, but about keeping it fair for those already playing the game who cannot in any way share the benefits of growing up male (in this instance).

I suspect you're right that it is partially being driven by people who aren't interested in sport. There are some men who just like to claim that men are better than women at everything, and I could imagine that if someone tries to describe just how much of an advantage men have over women in sport, they could easily sound like another one of them. But this is a special case in which it's actually true.

However, I've even heard presenters from women's sport panel shows interviewed, who've accused the AFL of "patronising" women by assuming they couldn't "hack" playing against Mouncey. Last month, a Liberal Senator called for men's and women's professional sporting competitions to be merged https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...australia-s-elite-sports-20180220-p4z0ys.html (this call was then supported by an editorial in The Age). I suspect that even many people who have an interest in and knowledge of sport don't fully realise how much of a physical advantage men have over women, and seem to assume that the genders are mainly separated for social reasons. I could imagine that to such people, Hannah Mouncey would look like a modern-day Jackie Robinson.

Two recent cases highlight just how large the advantage is. Kristi Miller is a trans-women who played country football at the age of 48 https://www.todaytonightadelaide.com.au/stories/trans-footy-dispute and Catherine McGregor is a trans-women and club cricketer who made a serious bid to play in the WBBL at the age of 60. http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...h/news-story/b355c2a7f7f52d903523ef11ac1ec626

Both of these cases are telling for the fact that it's simply unknown for people to be able to continue to compete at those ages. I imagine even Bradman may have struggled had he padded up at 60 years old against club cricketers in their prime (especially if he had given up cricket for 30 years and become an alcoholic). This demonstrates just how much of an advantage trans-women have over cis-women. Moreover, while Miller is clearly quite muscular, McGregor doesn't appear to be. McGregor is quite tall for a woman, but isn't particularly heavy. This shows that the advantage trans-women have over cis-women is not just a matter of their greater weight and their visible musculature. That's why I think that the focus on Mouncey's weight is potentially counter-productive, since it implies that if her weight were to drop sufficiently, there wouldn't be a problem. But it's clearly not that simple.

 

[Bulldog1954]

If Hannah wasn't born as male, she wouldn't be as big and strong as she is now. It's a clear advantage that is unfair to the rest of the league.

 

[kirsti]

I suspect you're right that it is partially being driven by people who aren't interested in sport. There are some men who just like to claim that men are better than women at everything, and I could imagine that if someone tries to describe just how much of an advantage men have over women in sport, they could easily sound like another one of them. But this is a special case in which it's actually true.

However, I've even heard presenters from women's sport panel shows interviewed, who've accused the AFL of "patronising" women by assuming they couldn't "hack" playing against Mouncey. Last month, a Liberal Senator called for men's and women's professional sporting competitions to be merged https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...australia-s-elite-sports-20180220-p4z0ys.html (this call was then supported by an editorial in The Age). I suspect that even many people who have an interest in and knowledge of sport don't fully realise how much of a physical advantage men have over women, and seem to assume that the genders are mainly separated for social reasons. I could imagine that to such people, Hannah Mouncey would look like a modern-day Jackie Robinson.

Two recent cases highlight just how large the advantage is. Kristi Miller is a trans-women who played country football at the age of 48 https://www.todaytonightadelaide.com.au/stories/trans-footy-dispute and Catherine McGregor is a trans-women and club cricketer who made a serious bid to play in the WBBL at the age of 60. http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...h/news-story/b355c2a7f7f52d903523ef11ac1ec626

Both of these cases are telling for the fact that it's simply unknown for people to be able to continue to compete at those ages. I imagine even Bradman may have struggled had he padded up at 60 years old against club cricketers in their prime (especially if he had given up cricket for 30 years and become an alcoholic). This demonstrates just how much of an advantage trans-women have over cis-women. Moreover, while Miller is clearly quite muscular, McGregor doesn't appear to be. McGregor is quite tall for a woman, but isn't particularly heavy. This shows that the advantage trans-women have over cis-women is not just a matter of their greater weight and their visible musculature. That's why I think that the focus on Mouncey's weight is potentially counter-productive, since it implies that if her weight were to drop sufficiently, there wouldn't be a problem. But it's clearly not that simple.

Is this the muscular Kirsti Miller you refer too?, she is 58kg wringing wet.

 

[kirsti]

Is this the muscular Kirsti Miller you refer too?, she is 58kg wringing wet.
View attachment 468296 View attachment 468297 View attachment 468298

18 years without testosterone hasn't left me huge my partner Nikki is heavier, stronger, faster and much more muscle mass then I.

 

[kirsti]

If Hannah wasn't born as male, she wouldn't be as big and strong as she is now. It's a clear advantage that is unfair to the rest of the league.

Is Valerie Adams to big for the AFLW she is bigger then Hannah and Sonny Bill Williams?
I

 

[Bulldog1954]

Is Valerie Adams to big for the AFLW she is bigger then Hannah and Sonny Bill Williams?
View attachment 468308 I

Nope, she should be more then welcome to play any sport she chooses as her strength and size wasn't developed with the aid of biological advantages.

 

[jatz14]

Nope, she should be more then welcome to play any sport she chooses as her strength and size wasn't developed with the aid of biological advantages.

But they were, thats the entire argument.
That a women was born a natural women doesn't mean she doesn't have a huge biological advantages over other women. These advantages can be as big as the advantages a women born male has, or bigger. If its the advantage that is unfair, then any women with that advantage should be refused, regardless of how she got it. If its how she came by the advantage that is the issue, then stop pretending its about fairness.

 

[Bulldog1954]

But they were, thats the entire argument.
That a women was born a natural women doesn't mean she doesn't have a huge biological advantages over other women. These advantages can be as big as the advantages a women born male has, or bigger. If its the advantage that is unfair, then any women with that advantage should be refused, regardless of how she got it. If its how she came by the advantage that is the issue, then stop pretending its about fairness.

I'm not denying that I think it's how Hannah gained the advantage that is unfair.

Valerie Adams obviously has biological advantages compared to other women, which she is lucky to have. Just as someone like Usain Bolt has biological advantages compared to other men.

But Mouncey's advantages are not luck. She has been able to put on strength and size for 26 years with the advantages of male biology. Her opponents have not had this advantage. There are obviously exceptions, but those born male are infinitely more likely to be stronger and bigger then those born female.

Being born with male biology has immeasurably boosted the likelihood of these biological advantages, which I think is unfair.

 

[MightyFighting]

Is this the muscular Kirsti Miller you refer too?, she is 58kg wringing wet.
View attachment 468296 View attachment 468297 View attachment 468298

I was going on the photo that accompanied the article I had linked to, it may have made her look larger than she is. But that's exactly the point I was making with Catherine McGregor: that trans-women's huge physical advantage persists even if their weight is comparable to a cis-woman's. So, the focus on Hannah Mouncey's weight has the potential to obscure the issue somewhat.

 

[Aeglos]

I was going on the photo that accompanied the article I had linked to, it may have made her look larger than she is. But that's exactly the point I was making with Catherine McGregor: that trans-women's huge physical advantage persists even if their weight is comparable to a cis-woman's. So, the focus on Hannah Mouncey's weight has the potential to obscure the issue somewhat.

I don’t think you’ve twigged that you’re actually talking to THAT Kirsti

 

[kirsti]

I was going on the photo that accompanied the article I had linked to, it may have made her look larger than she is. But that's exactly the point I was making with Catherine McGregor: that trans-women's huge physical advantage persists even if their weight is comparable to a cis-woman's. So, the focus on Hannah Mouncey's weight has the potential to obscure the issue somewhat.

Cate Mac

I was going on the photo that accompanied the article I had linked to, it may have made her look larger than she is. But that's exactly the point I was making with Catherine McGregor: that trans-women's huge physical advantage persists even if their weight is comparable to a cis-woman's. So, the focus on Hannah Mouncey's weight has the potential to obscure the issue somewhat.

Both Cate and I are transitioned XY Females meaning we both have undergone gender surgery both having our androgen receptors removed meaning neither of us produce testosterone naturally in our bodies. Myself being 12 years post operative meaning my body has not produced testosterone in my body for 12 years and prior to that I was chemically castrated.

Any XY male that is castrated
and does not received testosterone supplements after 12 years would be suffering severe post menopausal symptoms my body is in a a complete androgen deprivation state which I can assure you is not a healthy state and defiantly not conducive to being competitive on the football field.

 

[sprockets]

Kirsti, is it reasonable to suggest, given the medical problems associated with ts athletes due to drug rules (and other issues), that attempting to fit into current gender based sport should be discouraged?

Plus
Competitive sport is for natural athletes, not enhanced athletes. What would be the difference between a transgender taking 'supplements' and a female taking 'supplements'? People have different natural levels of testosterone, hormones, etc. What level of supplementation/enhancement is fair? Would it be fair for a TS to have a higher 'enhanced' average or typical level of testosterone (for example) than a female with a lower natural level?