Play Nice First transgender player in the AFLW

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Malifice

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It's odd that someone with a penis is my central issue? When discussing eligibility for a women's comp?
Kind of is. A wang in and of itself doesnt provide a competitive advantage.

Testosterone does (among other hormones that are in abundance in males and not women).

Of all the aspects that provide a greater physical advantage to men over women, a penis isnt really one of them.
 

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Malifice

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I understand that.

My point is that even before you look at the unfair advantage argument, you need to look at whether the individual is anatomically one sex or the other. That's our starting point.
I dont think that should be the starting point.

If a woman (born a male) undergoes hormone blocking pre puberty (and thus never gets the advantage of testosterone spike at puberty that causes increased muscle mass and bone density and aggression in men) but retains her penis, Im not seeing a competitive advantage here.

Ive seen women that have done this, and in most cases they look like women having skipped male puberty, and instead undergone female hormone treatment. They dont have any kind of marked advantage.

If the inverse is true (she experienced puberty as a man, and only just started hormone therapy, retaining the advantages of increased musculature etc) but has had her penis removed recently she has an actual physical advantage.

Thats a far more relevant issue here. The existence of a penis doesnt give one any kind of advantage (testes perhaps, but again, for hormonal reasons).
 

Dazzler9

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Kind of is. A wang in and of itself doesnt provide a competitive advantage.

Testosterone does (among other hormones that are in abundance in males and not women).

Of all the aspects that provide a greater physical advantage to men over women, a penis isnt really one of them.
I don't think the suggestion was that a penis gives an advantage. Certainly I've made similar observations today to Wing It and it was nothing about a perceived advantage. It's just that if you have a penis then surely, surely, you shouldn't be participating in a female comp.
 

twotooto

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Honestly could not give a fu** what Hannah or anyone else wants to identify as.

The fact that she was born a bloke and now identifies as a transgender female is fine. If that's what's she wants, who am I or anyone else to deny her of that right?

That said, I agree with the AFL deeming her not eligible to play in the AFLW(as of this moment). I also note that transgender women and other women birthed as women on this board agree with the decision due to there not yet being enough time elapsed from when she transitioned to a female, nor to there not yet being enough scientific data/research backing up her participating on an 'on par' basis.

What is hard to understand about that? Sure there will be a small element who will dispute her future eligibility to participate in the AFLW no matter how much due diligence/research has been completed but do we really need to make this decision about discrimination?

It is so cut and dried it's not funny and it has sweet fu** all to do with discrimination for the vast majority. Good lord. Take a step back and look at this objectively for 5 seconds. FFS.
 

Malifice

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I don't think the suggestion was that a penis gives an advantage. Certainly I've made similar observations today to Wing It and it was nothing about a perceived advantage. It's just that if you have a penis then surely, surely, you shouldn't be participating in a female comp.
I dont think the penis is the dealbreaker here though mate.

Its the (increased muscle mass, bone density etc) from testosterone and male puberty. We hulk up from the ages of 10-20. Before that there is negligible physical difference between boys and girls (other than anatomical differences that have negligible impact on athletic performance).

I can certainly see a case for a pre puberty transgender woman who has been on hormone blockers and hormone treatments for 10 years through puberty and beyond to play in a womans comp, penis or no penis. Beyond that, its a question of other variables (that vary from sport to sport around the world).

The issue here seems to be that the woman in question, only really started physically transitioning fairly recently. She still is physically a bloke (and a big bloke). A genetic woman, would need 20 years of intensive testosterone treatment (bone and muscle mass) to be on par.

Or a few months with Dank.

You don't just spend 20 years getting the benefit of testosterone, transition and get on blockers (bringing your current ambient levels down) for a few months and then 'boom' it's like you never got those advantages.

Its not her penis that gives her the advantage here. Its the hormones that have shaped her into a big strong unit in the decades prior.
 

ABSOLUTE MADMAN

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I dont think that should be the starting point.

If a woman (born a male) undergoes hormone blocking pre puberty (and thus never gets the advantage of testosterone spike at puberty that causes increased muscle mass and bone density and aggression in men) but retains her penis, Im not seeing a competitive advantage here.

Ive seen women that have done this, and in most cases they look like women having skipped male puberty, and instead undergone female hormone treatment. They dont have any kind of marked advantage.

If the inverse is true (she experienced puberty as a man, and only just started hormone therapy, retaining the advantages of increased musculature etc) but has had her penis removed recently she has an actual physical advantage.

Thats a far more relevant issue here. The existence of a penis doesnt give one any kind of advantage (testes perhaps, but again, for hormonal reasons).
You just shattered the theory of the patriarchy. ;)
 

Smartest Brain

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I don't get why there are gender specific leagues of any sport unless there is a real product diversification . If women are good enough to play afl, let them play against men. Of course it's likely no woman would ever be good enough for afl but that's how it is. Most men aren't good enough for afl, we don't cry a river about it. Aflw will not be popular in the long term because the thing it is offering is worse than mens afl, it's worse than any mens state league and they are barely watched.

Of course if groups like women want to play Aussie rules and just let in the groups they think are alright then let them. I just think it's a sign of the times when the afl is trying to push a vastly inferior product onto the masses and telling us it's a roast dinner. Can't wait for next season's 10 points to 4 points full time score and airballs from 25m out, riveting..
 
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Smartest Brain

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Serena Williams could take out Hannah and they would let Serena play. Testosterone ect excuses good enough?
If a transgender played aflw it's ratings would likely be higher, at least in the short term. If the biological women in the league think its ok to let biological men who think they are women play then let them play. It's really up to them isn't it? Maybe they should let the players in aflw vote on the issue.
 

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kirsti

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Are any of the drugs some transgender people take on the wada banned list? Maybe they could get an exception for it I guess if so. Certainly makes drug testing harder.
Not male to female they take estrogen and testosterone blockers,
Transmen are administered testosterone supplements and they can compete as a male with them.
 

Inthegate

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I don't get why there are gender specific leagues of any sport unless there is a real product diversification . If women are good enough to play afl, let them play against men. Of course it's likely no woman would ever be good enough for afl but that's how it is. Most men aren't good enough for afl, we don't cry a river about it. Aflw will not be popular in the long term because the thing it is offering is worse than mens afl, it's worse than any mens state league and they are barely watched.

Of course if groups like women want to play Aussie rules and just let in the groups they think are alright then let them. I just think it's a sign of the times when the afl is trying to push a vastly inferior product onto the masses and telling us it's a roast dinner. Can't wait for next season's 10 points to 4 points full time score and airballs from 25m out, riveting..
I don't necessarily agree with all this but I must admit I do get confused at times when we start talking about gender equality and I suppose to an extent homosexuality.

If everything is equal than why do we still have male and female toilets? Why are the male and female leagues separated in almost every sport?

This is the one big problem I have with political correctness. It suits when convenient but doesn't when it's not.
 

Smartest Brain

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Not male to female they take estrogen and testosterone blockers,
Transmen are administered testosterone supplements and they can compete as a male with them.
So transwomen only take two things? Test blockers and estrogen? Do you know how that affects their testosterone to epitestosterone ratio? That is used in urine drug tests to detect suspicious stuff.
 
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Smartest Brain

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I don't necessarily agree with all this but I must admit I do get confused at times when we start talking about gender equality and I suppose to an extent homosexuality.

If everything is equal than why do we still have male and female toilets? Why are the male and female leagues separated in almost every sport?

This is the one big problem I have with political correctness. It suits when convenient but doesn't when it's not.
Yes but we aren't feminist gender studies professors. We don't understand why it doesn't make sense because we are ignorant fools, or something . If some women can play better than the men in the afl I say let them in! You want the best players in the top league.
 

Inthegate

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Yes but we aren't feminist gender studies professors. We don't understand why it doesn't make sense because we are ignorant fools, or something . If some women can play better than the men in the afl I say let them in! You want the best players in the top league.
I'm certainly no professor but I do deal in common sense!

Like I said this is where I get confused with Political correctness.

Women and men are different, whether you like it or not, having their own leagues makes sense to me, but if we are talking about moving to a more equal society im not sure that it does
 

Jcpdragonx

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I don't get why there are gender specific leagues of any sport unless there is a real product diversification . If women are good enough to play afl, let them play against men. Of course it's likely no woman would ever be good enough for afl but that's how it is. Most men aren't good enough for afl, we don't cry a river about it. Aflw will not be popular in the long term because the thing it is offering is worse than mens afl, it's worse than any mens state league and they are barely watched.

Of course if groups like women want to play Aussie rules and just let in the groups they think are alright then let them. I just think it's a sign of the times when the afl is trying to push a vastly inferior product onto the masses and telling us it's a roast dinner. Can't wait for next season's 10 points to 4 points full time score and airballs from 25m out, riveting..
State leagues still have followings despite being inferior. AFLW is in its growth stage and is yet to mature, it will be fine.
 

Rimmer

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I like that she handled it well, 190 cm and 100 kg is quite formidable in these formative days for AFLW where there are a mix of footballers and a mix of sporting personalities from other sports who have been recruited by the AFL to give it greater publicity.

One thing I noticed in the first season is that some of the girls (usually those who have played some footy in the past) were better at protecting themselves than others.

Hannah will play a lot of football in future years and I give her great credit in that she is being patient.
 

liam123

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This thread is so disappointing.

You can think what you want about the decision, but the venom in the some of your words towards one of the most persecuted minorities and their value as human beings is saddening.
Because you don't agree with something other people do it doesn't mean you don't value them as human beings.

For example, As I Christian I have been taught to love everyone no matter what. I value everyone as a human being and truly believe they shouldnt be bullied or made out to be any less in value.

However, there are things which people do that I as a Christian believe are morally wrong. This is not a personal attack on them. I do things which are morally wrong too on a daily basis. I have to fight against these things and I expect others to pull me up on things when I go wrong (cops, family etc).

I can't change the belief on a transgender or a gay or anything else. I don't devalue them as human beings and I believe that God wants me to love all people the same. Yet I cannot agree and I feel like I must speak out on these issues. Just like I can't change others opinions or beliefs and make them accept mine I don't expect them to change mine or make me accept theirs.

So to all the transgendered etc out there I'm sorry but I don't agree with you and I. Relieve it's morally wrong what you are doing. Please for your own sake accept how God created you
 

Malifice

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Because you don't agree with something other people do it doesn't mean you don't value them as human beings.

For example, As I Christian I have been taught to love everyone no matter what. I value everyone as a human being and truly believe they shouldnt be bullied or made out to be any less in value.

However, there are things which people do that I as a Christian believe are morally wrong. This is not a personal attack on them. I do things which are morally wrong too on a daily basis. I have to fight against these things and I expect others to pull me up on things when I go wrong (cops, family etc).

I can't change the belief on a transgender or a gay or anything else. I don't devalue them as human beings and I believe that God wants me to love all people the same. Yet I cannot agree and I feel like I must speak out on these issues. Just like I can't change others opinions or beliefs and make them accept mine I don't expect them to change mine or make me accept theirs.

So to all the transgendered etc out there I'm sorry but I don't agree with you and I. Relieve it's morally wrong what you are doing. Please for your own sake accept how God created you
Can you point me to the passage of the Bible that indicates it's morally wrong to be transgender?

I'm pretty confident its not even alluded to in there anywhere.
 
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