Play Nice First transgender player in the AFLW

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blitzer

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Yes but we aren't feminist gender studies professors. We don't understand why it doesn't make sense because we are ignorant fools, or something . If some women can play better than the men in the afl I say let them in! You want the best players in the top league.
I severely doubt any women would be capable of playing at AFL level with the physicality and pace of the game. It wouldn't matter how good their skills are - I have no doubt there would be some women that would be great kicks of the ball.

Gender's are split in most sports for good reason - because of the physical advantages men have which we all acknowledge. There will never be a day where you see men tackling women in AFL footy. It won't happen. I can't even imagine the uproar if a player like Mumford went after a woman in a match - we'd be hearing about it for years.

On the flip side the interesting thing for me is the gender separation in sports/games where there is little evidence that physical attributes would be an advantage eg Shooting, Ten-pin Bowling, Chess (has a weird separation that's not worth going into on here) and Video Games. Even something like table tennis could probably have joint leagues.
 

John Who

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AFL made the right decision in respect to political, ethical, physiological, legal and safety reasons. AFLW league is still in its infancy stage, so no need to rush with decisions of whether to include transgenders until further research is done.
With that being said, and with good input from kirsti and a few others, I'm quite confident that in due time transgender people will be allowed to compete in the AFLW with specific criteria.

Though I question whether we can ever be "fair" when putting transgender players amongst groups of biological females. There will always be scope for hormone misuse by the transgender athletes, and on the flip side, with the mandatory testosterone blockers/estrogen medications, maybe the advantage will become more in favour of the biological females? Will we ever reach an exact equilibrium in hormonal implementation with transgender athletes?
 

sprockets

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Biological sex is a SPECTRUM. It is not rigid, static. The current scientific literature is clear on this. Biological sex is for taxonomic categorization and social classification.

Sex is defined by a consortium of arbitrary traits akin to phenotype. There are "women" with broad shoulders and small pelvises. There are "men" with wide child-bearing hips and narrow biacromial breadth. Look at Kinfelters Syndrome. I know girls who have wider shoulders than 99% of men.

In the context of physicality and sports, reproductive organs are not the defining characteristic. It's the arbitrarily assigned traits that regardless of "biological sex" is on a spectrum.

This is common knowledge in the science world and on campus.
Sex is defined/determined by the 'sex' chromosomes, biologically. Males have XY and females have XX sex chromosomes.
 

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Monkey King

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Biological sex is a SPECTRUM. It is not rigid, static.
Yeah this is total horseshit. Biological sex is generally (not without anomally or disfunction) a binary proposition, defined by either of two sets of reproductive organs. There is no spectrum. Traits that are associated with each sex are a spectrum no doubt, but putting it bluntly, you’re either born with a uterus, ovaries and can potentially give birth, disfunction aside; or you were not. And this is what defines biological sex, not broad shoulders.
 
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Malifice

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Yeah this is total horseshit. Biological sex is generally (not without anomally or disfunction) a binary proposition, defined by either of two sets of reproductive organs. There is no spectrum. Traits that are associated with each sex are a spectrum no doubt, but putting it bluntly, you’re either born with a uterus, ovaries and can potentially give birth, disfunction aside; or you were not. And this is what defines biological sex, not broad shoulders.
There are also hermaphrodites, and that PNG tribe (I think they're PNG) who are born women, but turn into men during puberty, plus a few other outliers.

I wouldnt call any of those 'disorders' or 'disfunctions'. They arent listed as such in the AMA Journals.
 

FrustratedTiger

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No, that's just a pragmatic approach to a very sensitive issue....tougher gig than anonymously on social media accusing people with actual real responsibilities around dealing with sensitive issues hypocrites
It's hypocritical with a touch of NIMBY not pragmatic. As her testosterone levels are well under the IOC required levels, the decision has been made on her size alone compared to those she'd be playing. Unless they breed a very large bunch of girls in Canberra, the same situation exists there.
 

Monkey King

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There are also hermaphrodites, and that PNG tribe (I think they're PNG) who are born women, but turn into men during puberty, plus a few other outliers.

I wouldnt call any of those 'disorders' or 'disfunctions'. They arent listed as such in the AMA Journals.
Firstly, I said “anomally” or “disfunction”. Not sure why you’ve switched out anomally for ‘disorder’, but oh wells. There are anomalies no doubt. This is nature, there usually are.

The tribe you reference isn’t quite as you say. It’s an occurrence among some 13% of males in that tribe that due to the deficiency of an enzyme regulating testosterone, their reproductive organs are not fully developed until puberty. They are not born female, as they never have female reproductive organs. This is a disorder by definition.
 

TimmeT

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Scientific consensus is that in many cases, pre puberty transition is best. Scientific consensus is how science works.

There are specific puberty blocker drugs and so forth that stop a woman (born a boy) from the testosterone surge and developing a beard, body hair, muscle mass, thicker bones etc during puberty.

In addition to blocking testosterone, they can give estrogen to encourage growing natural breasts etc.

The other option is let the kid go through puberty as a boy, then try and undo the changes of puberty.

Physcially and psychologically, assiting a transgender kid through puberty as the gender they identify with is much better for the kids mental health, and cuts out a lot of problems later on.

Depends on the child. They dont just start pumping hormone blockers into a boy that gets caught playing with Barbie dolls. There is a fair bit more to it than that.
Science does not work off consensus. This claim that science works off consensus was debunked when Galileo stated that the world is round and not flat.
 

TimmeT

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In what world is being born to Italian parents and identifying as Italian not enough 'for other Italians to recognize you as Italian'?

Bizzaro World?

How many Italians do you know? You would be accepted as Italian.

Give me an example that isnt a strawman.
ROFL I know Australians who are in their 40s and 50s who were born to full Greek parents who were born in and migrated from Greece and are still not identified as true Greeks in the same way as Greeks born in Greece are.
 

Monkey King

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Scientific consensus is that in many cases, pre puberty transition is best. Scientific consensus is how science works.
I think your claims of scientific consensus are unfounded. It’s a poorly understood and under researched condition (condition - in its definition as a state of being). Even those who advocate puberty blockers admit there is poor evidence from scientific standards as to its beneift.

Gender identification, like many things with kids, is more plastic and elastic than in adults. Presently, most studies agree that in the majority of cases, gender disphoria does not persist from prepubescence through to adolescence - at rates of between 75-80%. Some researchers conclude that as such, puberty blockers may prolong gender dysphoria in children who would otherwise fall within that 75-80%, which as other studies suggest, is a state that may be harmful to their mental well being.

I’m not arguing either way, but to come on here and outright claim there is a scientific consensus is misleading.
 

Black Panther

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Why do you care?
As the parent of a 5 foot nothing, 45kg weakling who loves playing her footy, no way in the world would I let her step foot on a ground with a creature like Mouncey

Well done to the AFL for standing up to the PC brigade for once and using common sense

Who cares what stupid IOC rules are (the IOC being the bastion of peak sporting corruption that it is)

If you are born with a sausage you are a man and play AFL, if you are born with no sausage you play in the AFLW

If you are in-between ... tough titties ... no high level footy for you
 

El Dubya

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There are also hermaphrodites, and that PNG tribe (I think they're PNG) who are born women, but turn into men during puberty, plus a few other outliers.

I wouldnt call any of those 'disorders' or 'disfunctions'. They arent listed as such in the AMA Journals.
You wouldn't describe a person who is sterile due to being born with a mix of sexual organs a disfunction?
 

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El Dubya

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As the parent of a 5 foot nothing, 45kg weakling who loves playing her footy, no way in the world would I let her step foot on a ground with a creature like Mouncey

Well done to the AFL for standing up to the PC brigade for once and using common sense

Who cares what stupid IOC rules are (the IOC being the bastion of peak sporting corruption that it is)

If you are born with a sausage you are a man and play AFL, if you are born with no sausage you play in the AFLW

If you are in-between ... tough titties ... no high level footy for you
Mouncey is a person, not a creature you ******* shitbag. There's much better ways of making your point outside of petty name calling.
 

swifty

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Crap decision by the AFL. Hannah’s testosterone levels are minimal and don’t allow her to be a power athlete from what I understand. She’s pre-op, but she isn’t a man.


The AFL’s reasoning that she’s too big, is just damn odd. Are we going to ban ruckman seeing as they are bigger than rovers?

Brad Hill plays in the same comp as Tom Hawkins, is that fair?
Tom hawkins hasnt lived 25 years as a male and gone to play in a womens league.

if a MALE has clinically low test and needs testosterone replacement therapy, does that mean he is a female due to low test?

having low testosterone doesnt mean you qualify as being a female. sorry.
 
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Tom hawkins hasnt lived 25 years as a male and gone to play in a womens league.

if a MALE has clinically low test and needs testosterone replacement therapy, does that mean he is a female due to low test?

having low testosterone doesnt mean you qualify as being a female. sorry.
Welcome to 12 hours ago.

I’ll leave you guys to flap your arms in exasperation now.
 

Chief

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As the parent of a 5 foot nothing, 45kg weakling who loves playing her footy, no way in the world would I let her step foot on a ground with a creature like Mouncey

Well done to the AFL for standing up to the PC brigade for once and using common sense

Who cares what stupid IOC rules are (the IOC being the bastion of peak sporting corruption that it is)

If you are born with a sausage you are a man and play AFL, if you are born with no sausage you play in the AFLW

If you are in-between ... tough titties ... no high level footy for you
Did you actually call another human being a "creature"?

I mean - really? You won't even grant her the status of human?
 

John Who

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I will try and end the argument regarding "biological sex is a spectrum".

Biological sex refers to:
- chromosomes XX and XY
- the type of genital belonging to a person
- procreation; females with the ability to carry a baby in a uterus.

"Spectrum of biological sex" more refers to:
- anatomical variations
- physiological variations
- cognitive variations

Being born a male or female does not predict our anatomy, physiology or mental functions. Hope that clarifies a few repeated arguments.
 

FRUMPY

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So she played local footy in Canberra for a women's side but isn't allowed to play in the AFLW? She will be playing local footy in a women's league next year?

Whats the difference? Surely if she cant play AFLW for a certain reason such as this, then she shouldn't be allowed to play in a women's local footy league?
 
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