Play Nice First transgender player in the AFLW

[Malifice]

he is a man. I do get to choose the sex because thats how he was born..

No you dont get to choose her gender. Its not your life to live. She gets to choose her gender. She doesnt get to choose your gender either. The door swings both ways.

She was born a biological man. We get that. Thats a statement of objective fact. However she chooses to identify as a woman. You dont get the right to take that choice away from her, trivialse that choice or belittle her on that choice.

This isnt a question of debate. Dont do it. Its ignorant at best, and a form of discrimination at worst.

 

[PrideOf]

That says to me they're going to take this on a case by case basis for the time being. I'm not sure a 60kgs trans woman would have caused the same level of concern.

Yep. It's probably why it's in the State-based Act as well.

And, as much as I hate the AFL picking and choosing when to apply its rules, in this case it may need to. Forget the IOC comparisons with athletics, the State-based legislation has already given them a blueprint on how to approach it.

And what I find fascinating is the view that we apparently need a blanket rule to join the AFLW (ie "if you identify as a woman, you have a right to play") with the view that all of gender/sex is somewhere on a spectrum and we don't want to put people into categories because everything's fluid.

 

[bkozican]

Shouldnt even be a discussion.

Males are built differently, and considering this is a contact sport.... Doesnt take a genius to figure this one out.

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

Insulting me doesn't make me want to interact with you.

If you consider that an insult then an online forum probably isn't the place for you. More likely however, you don't have a response because you know it's true. End of the day the AFL made the right call for a change.

 

[NoobPie]

No, it isn't. It had two clear expressions that make up over 99% of all humans, with a small subset of variances due to androgen sensitivities and chromosomal abnormalities.

Humans are a sexually dimorphic species, like all sexually reproducing species, meaning that it is anything but a spectrum.

...but but...everyone on campus knows that's not true

 

[Neese]

In your opinion

 

[King Brown]

No you dont get to choose her gender. Its not your life to live. She gets to choose her gender. She doesnt get to choose your gender either. The door swings both ways.

She was born a biological man. We get that. Thats a statement of objective fact. However she chooses to identify as a woman. You dont get the right to take that choice away from her, trivialse that choice or belittle her on that choice.

Why does one subjective point of view trump another one?

You are saying that Mouncey's belief that she is a woman overrides someone else's belief that she is not. They are both subjective view points. Either can stand.

 

[The_Wookie]

That says to me they're going to take this on a case by case basis for the time being. I'm not sure a 60kgs trans woman would have caused the same level of concern.

I have no doubt this is the case. At 190cm and 100kg she'd automatically be the tallers and heaviest player in the AFLW, a competition, which was noted very much for its physicality last year.

Any shorter or lighter and shed have been ok. Note that Adelaides Sarah perkins is 95kg...but is 17cm shorter too.

Note: Carlton ruckwoman Alison Downies weight is not given on the Blues website but shes listed as 111kg on basketball stats sites, and shes 188cm tall....

 

[Walshy1]

Well at least the issue has been cleared

 

[Always Ballin]

No, it isn't. It had two clear expressions that make up over 99% of all humans, with a small subset of variances due to androgen sensitivities and chromosomal abnormalities.

Humans are a sexually dimorphic species, like all sexually reproducing species, meaning that it is anything but a spectrum.

Only dimorphic from a reproductive and hormonal perspective (Which can be manipulated).

The rest of "gender assigned traits" are completely arbitrary and are more variable among one sex group then compared to the other. The science is clear on this.

Different human ethnic groups even show variation in phenotype dimorphism. East Asian ethnic groups display the least development of secondary sexual characteristics. I suggest you research up on paedomorphism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny_in_humans#Between_races.2C_ethnicities_and_among_primates

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

You don't get to tell me where my place is and isn't.

Buzzfeed is over there ---->

 

[Malifice]

Why does one subjective point of view trump another one?

Because you dont get to tell her what her name is, where to live, what to eat for breakfast, what God to follow, or anything else for that matter.

Her choice of gender is male. She chooses to identify as she. You dont get to choose other peoples names, genders, religions, ethnic identity or anything else for that matter.

As fair trade she promises to respect your choice in gender (presumably male) in return, and call you 'He'.

 

[telsor]

Are people really questioning THE International Olympic Committee? The IOC is THE highest sporting body on the planet.

Their findings were clear. The current scientific literature supports their decision.

This is SCIENCE. Not politics.

The AFL gave in to fear and hysteria.

The IOC is a political body, not a scientific one.

It's also massively corrupt.


Are you sure that's the example you want to use to justify the validity of the 'science' you claim?

 

[Rusty Brookes]

That says to me they're going to take this on a case by case basis for the time being. I'm not sure a 60kgs trans woman would have caused the same level of concern.

Yeah that's how I'm reading it. It would have been interesting if Emily Rowe was younger and had nominated. Quite clearly smaller than a lot of female players

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/i...und-celebrates-diversity-20170812-gxuw36.html

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

Only dimorphic from a reproductive and hormonal perspective (Which can be manipulated).

The rest of "gender assigned traits" are completely arbitrary and are more variable among one sex group then compared to the other. The science is clear on this.

Different human ethnic groups even show variation in phenotype dimorphism. East Asian ethnic groups display the least development of secondary sexual characteristics. I suggest you research up on paedomorphism.

You realise the hormonal perspective is what gives men the physical advantages right? Taking so estrogen for a year doesn't undo a lifetime of testosterone. It's not going to make your skull thinner or change its shape, it's not going to make you shorter, it's not going to shrink your joints or make your bones significantly less dense. It's not going to remove all the extra muscle cell nuclei that you developed as a man.

 

[SM]

Biological sex is a SPECTRUM. It is not rigid, static. The current scientific literature is clear on this. Biological sex is for taxonomic categorization and social classification.

Sex is defined by a consortium of arbitrary traits akin to phenotype. There are "women" with broad shoulders and small pelvises. There are "men" with wide child-bearing hips and narrow biacromial breadth. Look at Kinfelters Syndrome. I know girls who have wider shoulders than 99% of men.

In the context of physicality and sports, reproductive organs are not the defining characteristic. It's the arbitrarily assigned traits that regardless of "biological sex" is on a spectrum.

This is common knowledge in the science world and on campus.

Figures you're a uni kid!

 

[Walshy1]

Biological sex is a SPECTRUM. It is not rigid, static. The current scientific literature is clear on this. Biological sex is for taxonomic categorization and social classification.

Sex is defined by a consortium of arbitrary traits akin to phenotype. There are "women" with broad shoulders and small pelvises. There are "men" with wide child-bearing hips and narrow biacromial breadth. Look at Kinfelters Syndrome. I know girls who have wider shoulders than 99% of men.

In the context of physicality and sports, reproductive organs are not the defining characteristic. It's the arbitrarily assigned traits that regardless of "biological sex" is on a spectrum.

This is common knowledge in the science world and on campus.

Mate you have no clue. There are variations but you cant use the minority case as it creating your narrative.

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

Figures you're a uni kid!

Sad state of affairs when a large majority of uni students today have been indoctrinated by the identity politics the left has been pushing for decades and delude themself to reality. Though a large majority of these kids belong to the arts and humanities faculties, generally just toiling away wasting time and keeping busy doing a "degree" that will end with a job at starbucks, so that mummy and daddy keep paying their way. They then have the nerve to act superior to those without uni degrees, claim that because they're more "educated" (indoctrinated), that it somehow means their delusional opinion holds more weight. Much less of a problem in the business or STEM degrees.

 

[Dan]

AFL.com.au understands the subcommittee believed Mouncey would have had an unreasonable physical advantage over her opponents.

Yep

She was born a biological man.

and that's where it ends.

 

[PenAndPaper]

The correct decision has been made, my question is, why was Hannah allowed to play in an AFL sanctioned league but not the top AFLW?

 

[Always Ballin]

And there it is.

The proverbial "Marxist" conspiracy theory.

Oh boy.

 

[Yippy Yi Yeo]

Yep

and that's where it ends.

Glorious

 

[Deep]

Play in the blokes league or don't play at all.

 

[jarrod_island_doggies]

I've avoided this discussion until now, but I'd be interested in what the response would be if someone like Liz Cambage (2m tall and 100kg) decided to follow in the footsteps of Erin Phillips and move from basketball to footy?

 

[SM]

The correct decision has been made, my question is, why was Hannah allowed to play in an AFL sanctioned league but not the top AFLW?

Different rules in act.