Fitzroy - Dyson Hore-Lacy

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I know that Roylion recommended this book, and it's taken me this long to get around to buying a copy. Part of the reason for my procrastination in getting this book is that there's a part of me that is dreading reading about North's involvement in the demise of this club. The dread has increased.

I wasn't going to write about this book until I finished reading it, but after getting through the first four chapters, I had to make a comment. In short, I am furious. Furious in the knowledge that Fitzroy could have been saved. Furious at the lack of principles in the operation of the AFL by Ross Oakley. Furious at the complicity of the media (if you hate Mike Sheahan now, you'll hate him even more after reading this book). Furious that money has ripped the soul out of our game. The front cover of the book says it all.

Bill Stephen wrote the foreward to this book. He acknowledges that part of Fitzroy's problems were self-inflicted. But there is a realisation that many people worked hard to save the club. And as you read, you will realise that it would have only taken the backing of the AFL, and a backing that would have been a mere drop in the bucket compared to the amount of money they spent on Brisbane, Sydney, and overseas exhibition matches, to save this club.

Read this book (I got my from Readings in Carlton). Feel disgusted. Go buy a membership for your club. Then go and buy one from one of the "insignificant" and "unimportant" clubs. Don't give the AFL any excuses to get rid of any more Melbourne clubs.
 
Well some other Victorian Clubs (IE Richmond and Essendon) have blood on their hands too regarding the demise of Fitzroy. Workers from those clubs actually wooed disgruntled Fitzroy supporters as early as 1990 and handed out membership pamphlets on a future stable club to support. Notice how some many ex-Fitzroy supporters now barrack for Richmond ? Well i'ld just like to tell Ross Oakely that i hope the IRA bombs your house one day for culling fitzroy. Up yours Oakley ! (Can you still get those bumper stickers ?)
 
We all know that 11 teams was too much for a city of 3.5 million people. OK, I know the old saying: "There is no such thing as too many teams. It's whatever the market can support."

But surely, the AFL is a beter competition now, with 9 teams in Victoria, all of them reasonably strong and vibrant, with 7 teams (including Geelong) currently residing out of metropolitan Melbourne.

What would be "BAD", is if clubs like South and Fitzroy totally went extinct. This would mean that 10 to 15% of Victorian football followers would not support the game anymore. The AFL would be losing their market. This is what happened with South Sydney in the NRL.

At least with the relocation of South and the re-location/merger of Fitzroy, then the AFL retains the supporters of those teams (most of them anyway). They aren't losing their market like the NRL did with South Sydney. In addition to "keeping" their market the clubs have a stronger chance of survival since they play out of major capital cities.

Fitzroy, with their small suporter base and struggling on-field problems were clogging up the national competetion. They were preventing another club from South Australia, since the AFL were reluctant to expand byond 16 teams.

I understand how Fitzroy people love their club, but from the "competitions" point of view, things have worked out OK. The Lions supporters still have a team to follow, the competiton is better structured with less teams in Victoria (making it easier for teams like the Kangaroos to survive) and the national competition is thriving.

Sure, Fitzroy "could" have been saved. But really, would this have been for the betterment of the AFL competition ??

If my club were involved, I could cetainly understand the emotion, but the game is bigger than any one club. Just becasue i barrack for a successful club doesn't make me any less loyal. The "code" is bigger than any club. The AFL is better now than it was when Fitzroy was running around. If Fitzroy were to come back in 2001 as the 17th team, would this be good for the game ?? I don't think so. I'm very sad about Fitzroy. It's a tragedy. But, since Lions supporters still have a team and we have less teams in Melbourne, I feel the right (albeit painful) move was made.


[This message has been edited by Dan24 (edited 24 October 2000).]
 

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Dan24

Don't make me throw up. Your postings in the past have made it perfectly clear that you have no understanding of the emotions of fans whose clubs are on the verge of an AFL sanctioned extinction. You haven't even read this book, so how can you comment? Oh no, that was a silly thing for me to say...you have superior knowledge, you know it all, you have all the stats, and you have all the logic behind you. You also have an economics degree behind you....it's probably the same one that all those people who started dot.com companies had...the same ones whose business plans wearn't worth the paper they were printed on. Anyway, you're right....anyone else care to offer an opinion? Anyone who has actually read the book? Even picked it up in a bookshop and read the preface? Anyone? Anyone?
 
Settle down Shinboners.

Everything I said has some merit. it doesn;t mean you have to agree, but you can acknowledge it.

Why is it that only supporters of North and Fitroy understand what passion is. They think Essendon and Carlton can't show passion. I know what it would be like. Its easy. I imagine Essendon on the verge of being extinct and I think how terrible it would be and how my stomach churns. I think of what my life is going to be like without Essendon.

Then, I put thise feeling over to the Fitzroy fans. I imagine what it's like. Your club has never becoem extinct (sure it;s been threatended), so don't EVER tell me you know what it's like either. You'll just have to "imagine" like me. It's not hard.

You're right. I havn't read the book. I'm not awarre of the backstory. Biut I am aware that Fitzroy was struggling terribly and was cloging up the national competiton. If I want the "details" I'll read the book. Maybe I will.

The fact that their suporters still have a team to go for (keeping the market) combined with the fact that there are less clubs in the crowded melbourne market (making it easier for YOUR very own club to survive) means that IN MY OPINION the right decision was made.

If it were my club, I'd naturally show bias and be against the decision. For selfishness. But I KNOW I could see things from the games perspective and realise the the game is bigger than any one club.
 
Oh, and by the way Shinboners,

Your comment that past posts by me indicate I don't know anything about the passion of other suporters etc etc is patheic. Absolutelty pathetic.

I will attend upwards of 25 games a year. As you know yourself, going to the footy each week, we have an immensely passionate game. I can see from the supporters around me each week. I can see it myself each week when my mind is "football, football, football".

If anyone is aware of the passion of supporters it would be someone who attends 25-30 games a year (not just Essendon games)

But why I am explaning it to you? You'll just claim that I am an Essendon suporter and have no idea about passion, or having my club threatened. Then you'll say that my opinions are crap, so you'll have a cry about it because I have the gall to be opinionated.

Don't ever question my understandings of passion. I understahd the passions of Australian Football as well as anyone I'm sure. Do you think I'm just some sort of theatre-goer, or something ? Is that what you think ?

And please don't be as sarcastic in your reply as you were last time.

P.S Do you think that it is possibe to be pasionate AND subjective about the "Game" ? I do. Do you ? Hmmmmmmmm
 
Shinners I am with you, I will always give money to melb clubs to keep them alive.

G4E why has Essendon got blood on their hands over the Lions, it was the heirarchy at the AFL that did it, don't blame us for everything. Lol

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Mantis
 
Shinboners,

Don't give him the satisfaction. It’s not worth it. It is absolutely useless arguing with him, as i'm sure u may have realised. Have a look at his posts over the past week. He's trying to bait us. I just see a sorry soul trying to find excuses for getting his sick fix- 2000 word essays reducing the game to just a market (where some clubs are "clogging" it up) and how the “business” of AFL (irrespective of who it hurts), is the be all and end all and must flourish at any cost..... economic rationalism yada yada yada. He always goes on the side of the minority (him) or the totally ridiculous, just to get emotional replies. Well it's gonna end here with me.

He's just trying to get the followers of "meaningless" clubs worked up.... but guess what.... I'm gonna ignore what I just said above
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..... and argue with him…. for the last time EVER
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.... Sniff Sniff
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Dan,
Biased and selfish if your club faced the axe hey- nooo??? this wouldn't be coming from the "I step out of an Essendon supporters shoes to be totaly neutral.... and if i was a supporter of the dogs/roos i would blatantly see that my club is inferior” man? ....yet goes on to say that only supporters of those specific clubs will know how it TRULY feels. You are a hypocrite. You alter views just to suit what you are arguing. But coming from a supporter of such an "integral" club....

Then this man.... u know who I’m talking about.... the “why would you get emotional when I say that your club is meaningless and the competition would continue unchanged if you were extinct” man..... saying that “ I imagine Essendon on the verge of being extinct and I think how terrible it would be and how my stomach churns. I think of what my life is going to be like without Essendon”.

This guy (I think you have an idea who it is by now).... WAS saying (in the meaningless clubs thread)..... he would know exactly what it would be like to be in a position of not having your future assured.... yet in this thread he is saying ..... “so don't EVER tell me you know what it's like either”..... we wouldn’t be telling someone that their emotions are unique and only truly understood by fellow supporters of THEIR club….. would we Dan??

And in regards to the passion... go read your own posts (in other threads)- trying to "measure" passion!!...BTW ... WTF??? .... What are u doing today Dan??... oh u know.... just measuring some passion (grams or litres dan)!?!?!?! .... anyway getting away from the reasoning for it... in that thread u implied that clubs with lower supporter bases have less passion.... and u went off at Tiger Tank.... for nominating some other clubs who could justifiably be regarded to have high levels of passion.... and for him having the “audacity” to challenge yours. Still being neutral bud? or were you in one of your biased moods again? But I’m sure you’ll set me straight by saying when you put yourself in a doggies supporters shoes….. you would be in awe of the bombers supporters passions..... don’t worry about the game..... “F*** me drunk.... look at the opposition supporters..... look at how passionate they are..... if only WE could be like that... BTW who’s winning??”.

And in regards to your league being in such a better position argument- think 89 (Dogs)/ 96 (Hawks/ Demons)... and there’s your answer to why EVERY effort should have been made to save Fitzroy. Clubs go through troughs and peaks.... (except for Essendon of course) ....WTF is this “the comps better off now without them”... how the f*ck do you know that for sure??.... a clairvoyant as well now are we??? Those clubs had their backs to the wall.... but are going great now.... had they of merged you would be saying.... “I mean they could have been saved.... But would this have been for the betterment of the competition???”.... and the Hawks and Demons even managed to escape your “meaningless” tag....

All this coming from the man who can pass as truly passionate and be “SUBjective” at the same time...
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HAHAHA - the last line of his last post – .... I do/am/ can be passionate and SUBjective .....can u shinboners???….. hmmmmm” – what a classic!!.... I know it’s an honest mistake... but such irony.

See ya Dan- i'm not gonna let myself get involved in any of these debates with you again... call me a coward or whatever... or someone who knows when enough is enough....

And shinners- I’ll be buying the book to get a TRUE perspective on the events and emotions of people INVOLVED... Dan...
 
Westy

Yeah....I had just finished reading chapter 4 of the Fitzroy book, so I wasn't in that great a mood, so to read Dan's drivel just made me more angry. Just reading about how difficult the AFL made things for Fitzroy just disgusts me....and North fans here will know how every innovation North has tried to expand our supporter base has been compromised by the AFL.

Dan

Say all you want about how many games you attend (look, more stats!), but since you couldn't even understand how much anger you set off in the fans of the "unimportant clubs", how could you ever understand the "pain" that the Lions and Swans fans went through. As has been posted before, I watched plenty of my Lions and Swans friends and the misery they sufferred at losing their club, so don't give me any crap about how I have no idea of what it's like to lose a footy club.
 
I lost my club. But at the time I didn't realise that I and my footy friends ( who I now see a lot less ) "... with their small suporter base and struggling on-field problems were clogging up the national competetion ...".

On behalf of all Fitzroy fans, I must apologise for causing this massive colonic obstruction that made life intolerable for the other supporters. Why didn't you tell us ? Thank goodness the AFL in its wisdom gave all fans the administrative enema they craved, to relieve this clogging, so Fitzroy could be flushed away. Just a "small, struggling" flush - a regretable incident.

You certainly have a way with words, Dan24. You're needed in the Middle East - they need a guy with your light touch.
 
Dan,
You have done it now.

You are upsetting everyone and you can't really talk, coming from a meaningless suburb

Do you realise that Werribee has most of the worst social problems and if we could somehow get rid of it (like they did with the FFC) Then the rest of Melbourne (if not the world) would be in much better shape. Without Werribee 'clogging' us up that is.

That should give you more of an idea what it was like to be a Fitzroy fan when you were getting 'shafted' by the AFL7. It's really crocodile tears to say you can 'imagine' it happening to Essendon when we all know you are one of the 'untouchable' clubs and It would never ring true.

There definately is a group of 'untouchable' clubs (Essendon, Carlton, Collingwood and it seems, Geelong) are definately on there. Melbourne could merge but would always keep the name 'Melbourne'. This really flies in the face of 'market forces' as some clubs will be supported no matter what.

Everyone knows this. The AFL is keeping quiet because it's not exactly credible at the moment but just wait till they get all the waverley and TV money in their 'war chest' Then it's back to the barricades my friends. Fitzroy was only 'Dunkirk' and the Melbourne Dawks the 'Battle of Britain" I'm hoping the next phase is 'D-Day' when the VIC clubs ally and drive the AFL7 into a bunker somewhere and they can commit collective suicide together (Samuel as Hitler and CH7 as Eva Braun - Now I'm going too far)

But Dan, Lets get serious. In case I missed it somewhere, please give me answers to the following questions

1) How has the demise of Fitzroy made it better for North Melbourne for example. I can't see it myself. How would the 'loss' of another two or so clubs make it better for the rest ? Surely the melbourne clubs - being the ones with the most history and tradition - are the fabric we build upon.

2) Where is the actual evidence thet the Melbourne Market is 'overcrowded' ? If it is why are geelong trying to move here at the expense of their fans in geelong ? That website somewhere has the Kangaroos (and freo) as one of the top 150 football clubs in the world, in terms of average attendances.

3) Granted there seems to be a huge difference between the richest and poorest clubs. But where is the evidence that a melbourne based club would be better off anywhere else in the country ? The Kangaroos games in sydney are hardly inspiring.


Here's a message for other clubs. All the other clubs voted to allow Fitzroy to be (forcibly) merged to Brisbane. Since the failed 'dawks' merger both Hawthorn and Melbourne have amended thir articles so thay a 75% vote is required to merge or relocate in future. all the clubs are now furiously trying to survive and hope that some 'other' club will be the one to 'fail'. once a couple have gone the AFL will say it's plan has been acheived and back off.

I have anothe alternative. If each melbourne club (or a significant number of them) amends it's articles to forbid their respective boards to agree to any victorian club merging or relocating then it can never happen. It only needs an ordinary member to get 200 signatures and this could be voted on

"We shall fight on the Beaches"
 
Of course Pessimistic, the alternative to relocating or merging is liquidation. It doesn't matter whether the articles of a club forbid its board to agree to a merger or not. A heavily in debt club, as Fitzroy was, may have no choice but to liquidate, in which case they are out of the competition in their own right anyway, whatever their articles say about merger or relocation. Which is better..... to be out of the competition forever or to be part of the competition, albiet in a different form?
 
Ok here's an interstate unbiased (uninformed) opinion.

I always had a soft spot for Fitzroy. They got one of my favourite players from North Adelaide (Bill Lokan) & then Mike Nunan coached them for a while until they went bust. I also used to play for a team, which had the same style jumper. I even went to Western Oval to see them play once when I was in Butt Ugly Town (err sorry Melbourne).

Their supporter base although small was very loyal and although I don't know what it would be like to lose your club, I can imagine (North Adelaide has been on thin ice for some time & is often mentioned in merger talks in Adelaide). I feel for these people. No one likes to see clubs fold/merge.

But where was Fitzroy going? They were in debt. They had a small membership/supporter base, which wasn't increasing. If anything it was dying off. Their players were leaving to try & find more success (or just to get paid). On field success was very rare (accept against the Crows at Footy Park). Their facilities were very poor (according to Mike Nunan they were worse than at North Adelaide & the club was less professional).

Now the AFL could have propped them up. I agree. It probably would have been much cheaper than some of the other ventures they have spent money on (Brisbane/Sydney). But would the money have been better spent? What would have been the outcome if Fitzroy had been saved? Would they be a vibrant club now? Would they have more members / supporters? Would they be competitive? I'm afraid I have my doubts.

The AFL is trying to increase the size of the Aussie Rules market. They may have wasted money hand over fist up north but the objective is sound. Make our game THE game.

Now Oakley & the rest may have acted dishonourably in this affair. That wouldn't come as any surprise. They are probably right bastards. But I have to agree with Dan in that the comp is better now without Fitzroy than it was with them. Bisbane is a competitive club; the swampies are in & don't be fooled. As much as I hate them they know a thing or two about footy & winning. The remaining Melbourne clubs also have a bit more breathing space.

What we have to do is learn from the experience & try to come up with ways for the remaining clubs to keep their identities, traditions & support while at the same time developing the national game.
 

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HA HA I love it Westy your exactly right about "passion measurment" that's got to be one of his all time biggest rediculous arguments, "mines bigger than yours, cause I can tell". Still if your right about him having an economics degree Shinners, it explains a hell of alot. Not the "imperfect science" the bloody inane science, I've had the misfortune of doing a Macro unit.

Dan when will you get it? It's a tradgedy that Fitzroy have merged, and it would benefit the league, not hinder if they were there today. Most supporters just drop out of the loop they don't go and grab a new club membership or one for the merged one. So these people, sorry "consumers", aren't paid up followers any more the AFL loses their financial input. Thats aside from the fact that the poor old supporters who feel they've lost their club.

G4E I suppose you've "researched" this claim that the Bomber and Tiger "workers" were trying to poach Roy supporters, you must have proof. Or did you just "ask your Gandad" about it, please tell us what you base this slander on. Don't forget G4E hateing (for you its the Dons) something takes more effort than loving something, think about that, you sad individual.

Cheers.
 
My Aim is to force the AFL to be more accountable. How long will they stick to a 'ten year plan' which was written in 1985 ?

When they stood up and said 'Our competition is better than it has ever been BUT 2-4 clubs amy not survive another ten years'. We should have all questioned their sanity. up to 25% of the competition in trouble is not 'healthy' by any measure. But the called 'weakest' clubs draw crowds which are among the top 150 for footabll clubs in the entire world (this includes NFL, English, Spanish and Italian soccer leagues)

It suggests the AFL thinks thay all except the top hundred football clubs (of any code) are not in a position to survive. Its absolute claptrap and they should resign and go on the wheat board or something
 
Well I think Brisbane are much better off because of the merger. Quite apart from increasing their Victorian membership from 120 people to over 3,000, crowd support at their Melbourne games has risen remarkably (anywhere between 10,000 to 16,000 depending on the opponent and obviously from Fitzroy people who probably because there are only six games in Melbourne have chosen not to get a Lions membership but pay at the gate). Players have commented that playing in Melbourne is completely different to what it used to be because of the vastly increased crowd support. Lions' membership numbers overall have skyrocketed from 10,000 to over 20,000 in four years. As well this an injection of $2.1 million of merger money has also helped, which has been used for a variety of projects, including training ground redevelopment, establishment of a social club in Melbourne and others. Sponsors are now clamouring to sponsor the Brisbane Lions as confidence is high that they will continue to exist. Their image is also now much more marketable than the old Brisbane Bears.. and that has come from several officials within the club itself.
 
That's a big call {the AFL raining on North's parade} Shinboners.

I bet Fitzroy would have gladly taken the lazy couple of mill the AFL gave North to underwrite the, doomed from the beginning, Sydney safaris when they put the feelers out for ACT & Tassie games.
And I bet Hore-Lacy is kicking himself he never thought of playing matches in orange jumpers.
{Out of curiosity who footed the bill for Richmond having to send a team to Sydney for a game that would normally be played in Melbourne?}

Then you've got the unpleasant practice of trying to poach Sydney's supporters.

And the handling of the Fitzroy 'merger' was messy - it depends on which angle you view it from.

I can see some validity in the North/Friday night niche market arguement. But tv & money being what it is it would be a little presumptious to claim Friday nights as belonging to North {not that you did mind you - just balancing out the arguement.}

Not that I'm singling out North either.
The whole system is skewed.
That's why Carlton's compensation for the Legends Stand/home games at OO reeks of an "inside" job & Hawthorn's compensation for playing at the best football venue in town seems nonsensical.

To be fair to you, I follow the Pies.
And as such I'm interested to get your take on how we are "untouchable" or have been favoured by the AFL in recent years.
I assume Anzac Day might be in your thoughts but am genuinely intrigued as to what else.
 
Roylion, I have to agree with you there. The one thing that came out of the merger, as the season started in 1997, was to place the team in a national spotlight. The new team received coverage of it's football ability's as it never had before. Both former teams had almost been labled as 'losers'. Fitzroy struggling to win games and the'bad news bears' the other'bottom' team along with them. Now they are a nationally recognised team of good football ability.

Recently the 'Brisbane Lions should do more to get more Fitzroy ppl back' debate flared up again on the Lions website forum. I asked the question of Fitzroy-now-Brisbane Lions Members what they would have prefered out of a Merger with North, Merger with the Bears, or fold/liquidate, knowing what they do now, 4 years down the track.

One person, said, merger with a Melbourne based club, one other said either Bears or North would have been fine. The rest said merge with the Bears! Not ONE said folding/liquidating would have been better.

I have received my copy of the book just yesterday - and am looking forward to reading it over the weekend.

The fact of the matter is that all the other clubs that voted for that merger had their own reasons for doing so. Maybe some of it was that they thought it was the best option to preserve the history of Fitzroy, maybe others did actually feel that it would take the pressure off other struggling clubs by 'unclogging' the market place in Melbourne just a fraction. Or maybe there were other reasons altogether.

I would be interested to see an investigative journo/documentry maker or someone to a follow up on the situation now. A sort of "4 years down the track, how has it gone?" type of article.

The whole situation is still very raw for some ppl that for one reason or another are not able to move on and accept what has happened. There are still some ppl wanting to blame just one person/organisation for the loss of Fitzroy, instead of realising it was a culmination of many things.

And there is still a public perception amongst many that the Brisbane Lions is nothing but an extention of the Brisbane Bears, which is not correct at all. However, because they are based in Brisbane, it is easy to see where that has come from.

And Pess, yes, the Brisbane Bears lost out too, big time, for it's supporters. We were left mourning what could have been, after 10 years of struggling we were gone. In the last 2 years, we made the finals for the fist time, then again the next year making it thru to the prelim, had a brownlow winner, and then gone, with a snap of the fingers, by a bulldozer of a chairman. It was a huge shock. Unlike Fitzroy supporters who knew something was going to happen. We didn't. We thought we had run our dash weeks before, and that was that, and relief it was too. Then boom - manager goes table to table thru the social club on 4/7/96, whispering 'we have just merged with Fitzroy', shock barely describes it.

But we are stronger now, and we can take solace that nothing like this should ever happen to our 'new' club.
 
Good to se Drakey agrees with me. Of course the comp is better off now. To answer Pessimistics questins which were :

1.) How has the demise of the Roys made it better for North ?

Well, there are more sponsorship dollars to share around for a start. Yeah, the Melbourne clubs are the heart and soul of the comp I agree, but just remember, Fitroy "merged". It's not like they lost their supporters. As Roylion said, Lions support at games in Melbourne is at least what it was in 1995-96 for the Roys.

Pessimistic, you also said this :

2) Where is the actual evidence thet the Melbourne Market is 'overcrowded' ? If it is why are geelong trying to move here at the expense of their fans in geelong ? That website somewhere has the Kangaroos (and freo) as one of the top 150 football clubs in the world, in terms of average attendances.

Well, the fact that clubs were struggling to make a profit should be the best indicator that 11 clubs were too many. As for Geelong......we all know they have supporters in Melbourne anyway. All they are trying to do is convert those supporters into members. Oh and Geelong are not trying to move to melbourne "at the expense" (as you put it) of the fans in geelong. They will obviously keep their Geelong fans but want to convert their Melbourne fans to members. What's the big deal about that ?

You also said this :

3) Granted there seems to be a huge difference between the richest and poorest clubs. But where is the evidence that a melbourne based club would be better off anywhere else in the country ? The Kangaroos games in sydney are hardly inspiring.

Well, Sydney are better of than South Melbourne were (after some terrible on-field performances in the early 90's could have sunk them). Sydney have the biggest supporter base in the country if you take into account that they are a one-town-team in the nations biggest city.

And surely the Brisbane Lions, with their old Fitzroy supporters still actively suporting the team and a supporer base in the countrys third biggest city (and a handy finacial situation) are better off now than when it was simply the "Fitzroy Lions"

Now, for you WESTY BOY,

You are a typical over-emotional irrational fan of a struggling club. Nothing wrong with showing passion, but try to be a little subjective.

What do you do ? Analyse every word I say ? Yeah I said that I can realsie what it's like to be in the shoes of a struggling club. It's not hard to use your imagination. But Shinboners just comes out and implys that I can't understand passion simply becasue I barrack for Essendon.

You crap on about some shit I said about passion. Who the hell cares ????

Supporters are passionate. I'm passionate. Tigertank said that Essendon don't have character and I refuted that. I also said that there are a few Melbourhe clubs who are louder and more "parochial" than Essendon.

You have to understand that I am a supporter. If I am talking about "top spot", or "the demise of Fitzroy" ia am in neutral mode. I try to be as subjective as possible, which is hard in an emotional issue.

Then there are the threads where I am a "supporeter" When I am a supporter (as opposed to being a neutral) I like to brag, gloat and talk up my club. I am allowed to show passion and claim that Essendon are the greatest club on earth. Because in my eyes they are.

But wheh people can't see the difference between Dan24 gloating and bragging, and Dan24 giving a subjective opinion, then that's a real shame.

And what the F*CK are you talking about the Hawks-Dees meger to me for ? I actually didn't think the merger would be a good idea. I didn't want it. In fact, if it happened I think it would have been BAD for the comp. The fans didn't want it, and both melbourhe and Hawthorn are relatively important clubs as far as I'm concerned. Hawthorn actaully have a surprisingly big supporter base.

Fitzroy was different. I had a soft spot for Fitzroy (like everybody), but the merger was the perfect scenario. The Lions fans still had the "Lions" (better than nothing), the Melbourne marketplace became less "clogged" and the AFL was able to introduce a second S.A team, which was very important since S.A can CLEARY support two teams.

Everything about the AFL since 1997 indicates the compettion as a whole is better off. This doesn't means I don't think it's sad. I do. It's very sad. But it gives the AFL a better "structure" of teams around the country.



[This message has been edited by Dan24 (edited 25 October 2000).]
 
Drakey

It's frustrating because I can see your side of the argument too. I agree that the competition is richer for the presence of Adelaide, West Coast, Brisbane, etc. etc. But having read the book, I was very uncomfortable with the AFL commission being so pro-active in bringing about the club's decline. The Fitzroy board tried everything, but the AFL kept on finding reasons to tell them that they couldn't do this or that. If Fitzroy didn't try to save themselves and fell on their own swords, then fine and good. It's their fault and nobody else's, goodbye and farewell, thanks for the memories. But they did try and the only thing that stopped them from survival was Ross Oakley and the actions of the AFL commission....and that is what is leaving a very bitter taste in my mouth. This comes from a North fan...I would hate to think how a Fitzroy fan would feel.


Interesting!

The entire North in Sydney exercise has been discussed ad nauseam, and if check through the archives, you'll find that I wasn't entirely comfortable with North's methods of trying to get into the Sydney market. As for the money handed to North, that had to go into running the games, and we had to give back the remaining money to the AFL when our last game there against the Saints was transferred back to Melbourne. No-one in this entire situation is totally innocent.

You did hit the nail on the head about the Friday night footy niche market. For two or three years that was our night....we got good crowds. But the AFL decided to hand it over to other clubs....in '99, we only had about 2 or 3 Friday night games and in '00, only about 5 or 6 and most of them were at Colonial.

What irked me though was reading the Fitzroy book and seeing their ideas to survive being blocked by the AFL at every opportunity and (paranoid) me is seeing the same thing with North.
 
Interesting

Where did I imply that Collingwood et al were "untouchable"? Admittedly, that thought is in my mind but that view comes more from the fact that Collingwood, Essendon, and Carlton have such large supporter bases that it would take extraordinary incompetence for any of these clubs to get into enough financial strife to disappear. So, the size of your club ensures your untouchability.

As for ANZAC Day matches, I'm undecided on this. Most footy fans do take an interest in the marquee matches, regardless of their allegience. But on the other hand, why shouldn't the likes of North and Footscray ger a fair amount of games against the big teams so that we can generate some revenue to keep our clubs going too? As was pointed out in the Fitzroy book, Essendon generates more money out of one Essendon vs Collingwood game than Fitzroy did in an entire year. In a draw that is not even, North would prefer more games in Melbourne against Carlton, Collingwood etc and less against Fremantle and Port Adelaide. On a personal level, I get more of a buzz beating the Pies than the Power too.

But you're right...the entire thing is skewed, and I tend to blame the AFL commission more than the clubs.
 
Hore-Lacy and the last of the Fitzroy committee came to some arrangement with the Coburg Lions. I think they withheld some of Fitzroy's assets because they where in some other entity's name. Unfortunately Coburg is also in trouble, so I do not know what came (if anything) of the Fitzroy involvement.

I would rather support my team in an inferior competition than see it merged with an interstate team. I would take little interest in our former competition.
 

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Fitzroy - Dyson Hore-Lacy

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