Fixing the "Tanking" Problem

[jim boy]

I'm all for removing the priority pick altogether, and with that gone, so is a great deal of incentive for tanking. Even if you ignore tanking, it's arguably failed anyway.

Also this underlines another issue for footy, with so many teams not a realistic chance of September glory early in the season, their needs to be a much greater incentive for middle tier teams to perform.

 

[Blue1980]

If there was no priority picks any tanking debate, real and imagined would cease to exist.

The gaps between sides isn't great enough that priority picks are warranted.

If you just have a normal uncompromised draft (I know novel idea) where each side gets a pick from last to first, that would almost eliminate the problem.

Sure getting a priority pick doesn't guarantee a gun player, but the odds are far greater of a top player the higher the pick. If you have two high picks, the odds of having a gun player increases again.

I never liked the priority pick system when we were getting them, but I certainly wanted us to maximise our chances when in the situation (as every supporter of every club in the same position does).

No other sport in the world would have an incentive for a poor winning ratio, as they know what would happen, but the AFL is in denial.

 

[Blue1980]

I'm all for removing the priority pick altogether, and with that gone, so is a great deal of incentive for tanking. Even if you ignore tanking, it's arguably failed anyway.

Also this underlines another issue for footy, with so many teams not a realistic chance of September glory early in the season, their needs to be a much greater incentive for middle tier teams to perform.

Agree with the incentive for middle tier teams, but tanking failing? If you consider tanking and bottoming out one of the same, all of St Kilda, West Coast, Collingwood, Hawthorn & Carlton have benefited greatly. Melbourne have also benefited, just because they lost a game by 186 points means its a failure. They won more games last year than they had previously, and they will win more this year, and will probably make the finals next year.

Talk about Melbourne creating a losing culture by tanking is absurd, as anyone who has read about the off-field issues the club has had this year.

 

[pmad87]

An idea to eliminate tanking

There have been a lot of ideas thrown around in the past about how we could better do the draft. We could do a lottery like the NBA or just give pick 1 to 9th, 2nd to 10th etc. But here is my idea:

From next season there will be 18 teams. At the start of the year the AFL does the fixture only up to round 17, so every team plays every other team once.

At the end of round 17, the remaining 5 or 7 rounds(depending if it is 22 or 24 rounds a season) are fixtured. At the same time, the teams in the bottom ten at the conclusion of round 17 can submit to be included in a draft pick ladder. A body is set up (let's call it the "draft pick commission") and each year assesses any teams that have made submissions as to whether or not they should be included.

The criteria for inclusion would be things like:
-unrealistic prospect to play finals
-number of top ten draft picks in last three years
-form so far this season
-etc

Under this system, the team sitting at 9th would virtually never be included in the ladder, 18th would almost always be included and teams between 11th and 13th would likely make submissions and the commission would determine whether to include them from year to year. So the number of teams included could easily differ from year to year.

The AFL would then do the fixture for the rest of the season so that the teams play similar strength opponents (e.g. each of the teams included plays a top four team only once, another draft pick ladder team three times and teams from 5th-(whichever team missed out) once).

The official ladder would work in the same way as it always has until the end of the season, but at the end of the season, this additional draft pick ladder would determine who gets first pick, second pick etc.

Thoughts?

 

[The Passenger]

Re: An idea to eliminate tanking

hmmmm sounds like it could be very non-transperant and open up all sort of conspriacy theories.... this place would go into meltdown if collingwood came fourth last and still got the first pick.

personally i'd rather just have all teams playing each other in the first 17 rounds, and the ladder in reverse at that stage is the draft order.

teams aren't going to prevent tanking that far out, and the ladder doesn't change that much over the last 5 rounds anyway.

you'll still have accusations of teams throwing games in round 16 and 17, but it's probably more desirable than the current situation.

 

[SirJimi05]

Re: An idea to eliminate tanking

Thoughts?

Teams will start tanking earlier. Your idea will probably make things worse.

Lottery system is the way to go. Our current setup makes the AFL look like a mickey mouse competition.

 

[pmad87]

Re: An idea to eliminate tanking

hmmmm sounds like it could be very non-transperant and open up all sort of conspriacy theories.... this place would go into meltdown if collingwood came fourth last and still got the first pick.

The decisions would all be published and teams have the opportunity to make submissions. There's no reason for it to be less transparent than for example the ATO assessing people to tax.

In your example, the teams that finished last, second-last and third-last would have had their opportunities over the last few rounds to get that pick and would still get top 7(or thereabouts) picks.

For teams that truly are struggling for several years in a row and simply can't beat even the teams around them on the ladder, there may need to be a safety net however.

 

[pmad87]

Re: An idea to eliminate tanking

Teams will start tanking earlier. Your idea will probably make things worse.

How? They will have no idea whether they will be included. Whether or not they have a realistic chance to make finals is only one factor. If they had received top 5 draft picks for three years in a row, this factor may outweigh the poor form they've had so far that season and they wouldn't be included.

 

[Chewy]

Re: An idea to eliminate tanking

Here is my fool-proof, brilliant plan to eliminate tanking, once and for all...

I can't believe that nobody has thought of this before. I have sought a patent for my brilliant idea


The McInchewy System

Award the 1st pick to the team which finishes 1st
Award the 2nd pick to the team which finishes 2nd
Award the 3rd pick to the team which finishes 3rd
Award the 4th pick to the team which finishes 4th
Award the 5th pick to the team which finishes 5th
Award the 6th pick to the team which finishes 6th
Award the 7th pick to the team which finishes 7th
Award the 8th pick to the team which finishes 8th
Award the 9th pick to the team which finishes 9th
Award the 10th pick to the team which finishes 10th
Award the 11th pick to the team which finishes 11th
Award the 12th pick to the team which finishes 12th
Award the 13th pick to the team which finishes 13th
Award the 14th pick to the team which finishes 14th
Award the 15th pick to the team which finishes 15th
Award the 16th pick to the team which finishes 16th
Award the 17th pick to the team which finishes 17th
Award the 18th pick to the team which finishes 18th
End of first round
Continue in the same vein for another 6 rounds

 

[pulpdriver]

Re: An idea to eliminate tanking

There have been a lot of ideas thrown around in the past about how we could better do the draft. We could do a lottery like the NBA

I agree with that. Not sure why you kept writing.

 

[greennick]

How is it dumb?
A team that is on the rise gets draft picks over a team that has tasted success? I don't think that is dumb, that is the point of the draft. It means that clubs that win a flag then have a hangover year don't get picks over a club that has finally made it to the finals. So Hawthorn don't get to pick ahead of the bombers at the end of 2009 because they won the flag in 2008, had 39 wins over the three year period whereas Essendon had 28.
It means that West Coast don't get to pick Natanui as draft pick 2, 2 years after winning a flag.
It would mean clubs like Richmond or Melbourne would be able to improve over the years but still draw on their previous down time as the performance over three years would count.
Yes, teams could tank for three years but as Jack said, imagine the loss of fans if you knew your club wasn't going to try for at least three years and probably five if they wanted to get some first grabs at the draft.
Teams that were genuinely in a slump would get the picks but bad years would count for very little.

It is dumb because it means this year, WC may well finish top 4, but still get a good pick. Not that hard to see why it wouldn't work. Why should we get a good pick now we are near the top??? The problem with this idea is there would be a lag as teams fall and teams rise, meaning they spend longer down the bottom and up the top than required.

WC was shit in 08 because we lost 2 of the top 3 mids in the game at the time. Take Judd and Murphy out of Carlton and see how they go. It would be even worse than that actually because Cousins was so much better than Murphy ever will be. Why should we be penalised with worse draft picks because we were good two years prior. Key point being were good. We were shit in 08, we should get a good draft pick for being shit. That is the whole point of the draft!!!

Why mess with the system?? Partiuclarly, why bring in one that gets rid of one of the best things of the system (teams that are worse this year get better draft picks this year) and bring in one that doesn't even fix the problem you want it to (ie, teams could still tank and reap the benefits for years, instead of just one)?

All we need to do is remove the PP. Remove the PP and all would be fair. Once free agency comes in at a decent number of years (say 7/8), I can't see the PP remaining as teams could then just go to the free agent market to get better faster.

 

[legend166]

Re: An idea to eliminate tanking

Here is my fool-proof, brilliant plan to eliminate tanking, once and for all...

I can't believe that nobody has thought of this before. I have sought a patent for my brilliant idea


The McInchewy System

Award the 1st pick to the team which finishes 1st
Award the 2nd pick to the team which finishes 2nd
Award the 3rd pick to the team which finishes 3rd
Award the 4th pick to the team which finishes 4th
Award the 5th pick to the team which finishes 5th
Award the 6th pick to the team which finishes 6th
Award the 7th pick to the team which finishes 7th
Award the 8th pick to the team which finishes 8th
Award the 9th pick to the team which finishes 9th
Award the 10th pick to the team which finishes 10th
Award the 11th pick to the team which finishes 11th
Award the 12th pick to the team which finishes 12th
Award the 13th pick to the team which finishes 13th
Award the 14th pick to the team which finishes 14th
Award the 15th pick to the team which finishes 15th
Award the 16th pick to the team which finishes 16th
Award the 17th pick to the team which finishes 17th
Award the 18th pick to the team which finishes 18th
End of first round
Continue in the same vein for another 6 rounds

This would be a good idea if we wanted to completely ignore the very reason the draft exists in the first place.

 

[legend166]

Can people please stop acting as if a lottery system will stop tanking?

Tanking is much more prevalent and transparent in the NBA than it is here. If NBA fans saw the fuss that people are making over the Melbourne situation (not that people are wrong to make a fuss - it still is a crappy situation), they'd be laughing.

 

[Byron_Clanger]

Re: An idea to eliminate tanking

A draft lottery would help eliminate tanking, not fully get rid of it

 

[SirJimi05]

Dumb idea, the team that finishes last deserves all the help they can get, if teams were good enough to win games they would. So what if a team tanks, it's totally up to them if they want the wooden spoon, it doesn't mean they get the best player in the draft, only the first pick.

Not sure if serious?

 

[ausbacker]

Re: An idea to eliminate tanking

Draft lottery for the teams not playing finals with % of securing the number 1 pick scaled across a 3 year ladder performance cycle with supplemental draft picks at the end of rounds.

 

[believe_it]

Re: An idea to eliminate tanking

This would be a good idea if we wanted to completely ignore the very reason the draft exists in the first place.

Made me laugh

The whole issues is about taking the incentive out of losing. The draft already is set-up to "reward" poor performance. The incentive to tank will become real when a team can no longer reach finals.

Separating the 8 and the rest and doing a lottery for the bottom and the top or just for the bottom with a continuation of the current system for the top 8- perhaps or maybe my idea-

Number 1 goes to 9th and 2 to 10th and so-on downward to 18th then reversed for top 8 from 8th to 1st. Finals performance here would be the motivation for the top 8. This would also enliven the back-end of the season for the bottom 10 by making winning still important for all teams. Yes it's not as fair to the spooners - but do they deserve it? Playing for draft spots would enhance the excitement of the league and therefore enhance revenue.

 

[WCE_phil]

Re: An idea to eliminate tanking

Every team plays the other team once in the first 17 rounds and the ladder at that point of the season is reversed to give the draft order. You play each team home and away over a two year period for those first 17 rounds to keep it completely fair. The last 5 rounds of the season can be as manipulated for cash and whatever as much as the afl likes because it will have a much lesser effect on the integrity of the game longterm. Selling of home games etc could also only take place during these rounds.

Priority pick system. Rule out number of wins. If you finish bottom of the ladder (after round 17) 2 years running you get a priority pick to start the second round of the draft. That's it. That way theres not this magical number where teams need to tank to stay under a certain number of wins to get an extra pick.

Lastly to further promote teams to do their absolute best each year at the end of round 17 the afl dispenses a special payment to all clubs whereby each team is paid by what position they are on the ladder. This money is to go to the players and is to be equally distributed.
ie. so say theres 48 players on a team list all players on the team who's first at the end of round 17 get a special payment of 50,000 dollars while last would get 10000 each. This would be outside of the salary cap.

 

[Hornberger]

Re: An idea to eliminate tanking

A draft lottery is completely unnecessary. No team has ever being accused of tanking to improve their draft position. All accusations of tanking have been in regard to the priority pick.

The difference between the 1st and 2nd picks are negligible but there are real cost associated with tanking. It hurts attendances, membership sale and the value of sponsorships not to mention player’s and coach’s careers.

 

[Kram]

Re: An idea to eliminate tanking

^^Exactly. With the priority picks gone the current system is fine FFS.

 

[Bestbird]

A left of field suggestion would be to allocate descending drafting points for each club in the first 3 rounds based on position.

You then have an auction for each player nominated by the club with the most points after each selection.

In this way a bottom club could go for different strategies to build depth.

I.E

Instead of going for the best player the bottom team may decide that 3 picks in the latter stages of the top 10 would be more beneficial

 

[qldbluesman_43]

I think the last placed team deserves to get the first pick. For the sake of an even competition it needs to be that way. However, the first round priority pick was a bit of a joke. The difference between the number 1 and number 2 picks in a draft is practically nothing - both will be stars. The difference between the number 1 and 2 picks compared to just one of them is enormous. Remove the priority pick, remove the problem IMO.

 

[legend166]

A left of field suggestion would be to allocate descending drafting points for each club in the first 3 rounds based on position.

You then have an auction for each player nominated by the club with the most points after each selection.

In this way a bottom club could go for different strategies to build depth.

I.E

Instead of going for the best player the bottom team may decide that 3 picks in the latter stages of the top 10 would be more beneficial

I think an auction draft would be pretty interesting.

 

[NAUGHT5]

Re: An idea to eliminate tanking

Solution that will end tanking and can cause no arguments about inequality.

Have a rotation system.
So club A has the following picks by year:

1, 18, 7, 15, 4, 14, 5 11, 10,
2, 17, 8, 16, 3, 13, 6, 12, 9.

Every 18 years you get the first pick.
Every 9 years you get a top 2 pick.

That's just a relatively random order that can be scrutinized more heavily and changed, but you get the idea.

 

[sunshine_saint]

Can people please stop acting as if a lottery system will stop tanking?

Tanking is much more prevalent and transparent in the NBA than it is here. If NBA fans saw the fuss that people are making over the Melbourne situation (not that people are wrong to make a fuss - it still is a crappy situation), they'd be laughing.

Excuse my ignorance - but I don't follow the NBA - how does the tanking over there work? Can you explani this a bit more please?