Religion Folau

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ep2018

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38.4% of Australians voted against gay marriage equality. How many of those who voted 'no' did so because they were pushing their religious 'values' down the throats of others?
I dont have a link on me sorry but there was a survey done a couple years ago which showed that support for same sex marriage from Christians was almost exactly the same as Australia as a whole. People here think Australian Christians are like their American counterparts, happy clappy, say grace before dinner and go to church every Wednesday and Sunday, etc, when in fact they are almost polar opposite. Its just because sick stupid fundie pricks like Folau, Lyle and Scomo are in the news all the time which makes us think they are all the same.
 

Gough

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I dont have a link on me sorry but there was a survey done a couple years ago which showed that support for same sex marriage from Christians was almost exactly the same as Australia as a whole. People here think Australian Christians are like their American counterparts, happy clappy, say grace before dinner and go to church every Wednesday and Sunday, etc, when in fact they are almost polar opposite. Its just because sick stupid fundie pricks like Folau, Lyle and Scomo are in the news all the time which makes us think they are all the same.
Look at high profile sky pilots in Australia, Scummo, Dutton, Twiggy, Bernardi, Issy, Barnaby f***ing Joyce each one of them if faced with choice between god and mammon would choose mammon every day of the week. These are not people of genuine faith, they just hide behind it's skirt by way of justiying their own prejudices.
 

Mofra

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Love the "out of context" bulls**t from Christians

Maybe the Christians have been taking the bible outta context this entire time and their god loves gays? Problem solved
There are so many bats**t crazy stories in the old testament it's incredible people would rely on it for life advice.

God sounds a little unhinged too - murdering almost every man, woman, child and animal on the planet at one point, completely destroying two towns at another point.
 

Cooldude

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There are so many bats**t crazy stories in the old testament it's incredible people would rely on it for life advice.

God sounds a little unhinged too - murdering almost every man, woman, child and animal on the planet at one point, completely destroying two towns at another point.
It's the intended target audience, since the book is bats**t insane, incoherent and contradictory, it will also draw a crowd with a fair share of bats**t insane, incoherent and contradictory people

Kinda like people who listen to Bieber music, you know those aren't intellectual giants
 

Evolved1

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I dont have a link on me sorry but there was a survey done a couple years ago which showed that support for same sex marriage from Christians was almost exactly the same as Australia as a whole. People here think Australian Christians are like their American counterparts, happy clappy, say grace before dinner and go to church every Wednesday and Sunday, etc, when in fact they are almost polar opposite. Its just because sick stupid fundie pricks like Folau, Lyle and Scomo are in the news all the time which makes us think they are all the same.
This Galaxy poll?

The same poll found that 57% of Australians identify as Christian. There's no way that 57% of Aussies are devoted Christians, so it's fair to assume a large number of those who identified as Christian just picked their 'birth religion'.

I'd like to see the data controlled for level of religiosity to give a more accurate picture.
 

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ep2018

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This Galaxy poll?

The same poll found that 57% of Australians identify as Christian. There's no way that 57% of Aussies are devoted Christians, so it's fair to assume a large number of those who identified as Christian just picked their 'birth religion'.

I'd like to see the data controlled for level of religiosity to give a more accurate picture.
If the census was worded "do you believe in God or a higher power?" we'd get a more accurate representation. I agree, there are several people who identify as Catholic for example but dont believe in God, my dad is an example.
 

Cooldude

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This Galaxy poll?

The same poll found that 57% of Australians identify as Christian. There's no way that 57% of Aussies are devoted Christians, so it's fair to assume a large number of those who identified as Christian just picked their 'birth religion'.

I'd like to see the data controlled for level of religiosity to give a more accurate picture.
The question is purposefully broad to boost numbers. There are many people who haven't associate themselves with any church or act religious or spiritual in any way, but tick themselves off as Christians because they were baptized as a kid

A more accurate representation would be that the figures show 11% go to a church at least once per month, and 7% go there almost weekly. Church going Christians are a much much smaller minority than they want you to believe
 

medusala

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Look at high profile sky pilots in Australia, Scummo, Dutton, Twiggy, Bernardi, Issy, Barnaby f***ing Joyce each one of them if faced with choice between god and mammon would choose mammon every day of the week.
Sky pilots. Amusing. ALP once again using armed forces to crush a strike

NB It's not like Eddie Obeid was an altar boy.
 

ep2018

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A more accurate representation would be that the figures show 11% go to a church at least once per month, and 7% go there almost weekly. Church going Christians are a much much smaller minority than they want you to believe
Because going to church makes you an authentic Christian? I grew up knowing a disproportionate amount of Christians due to going to a Christian school and a fair few of my extended family being so, this is a new gen of religion where Sundays are spent with your loved ones, and marriages and religious ceremonies are performed on the banks of rivers instead of in old s**tty buildings. Where the Bible is used as a guide and no the be all end all. Where my Christian mates have premarital sex and treat everyone (mostly) equal (I unfortunately do know a couple who are bigots) etc.
 

Opine

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Atheism is the lack of belief in deities, not a belief system or ideology. Suggesting otherwise is the same as claiming that a disbelief in Bigfoot is a belief system and ideology, when clearly it isn't.
Thanks, your response provides an opportunity to once again touch on an important point.

While you might be technically correct, as previously mentioned, for the purposes of establishing the scope of the right to hold and express a religious belief, the UN Human Rights Committee has adopted a broad approach to the term “religion;” it has said that ‘religion’ should be interpreted broadly to include ‘theistic, non-theistic and atheistic beliefs, as well as the right not to profess any religion or belief. It’s clear that atheism has been intentionally treated as a religious belief, otherwise the UNHRC would not have made additional express reference to “the right not to profess any religion or belief;” you can see this for yourself in UN Human Rights Committee, General Comment 22, Article 18 (Forty-eighth session, 1993), UN Doc. CCPR/C/21/Rev.1/Add.4 (1993).

if you prefer the above explanation in the context of an Australian jurisdiction look here http://humanrights.vgso.vic.gov.au/charter-guide/charter-rights-by-section/section-14-freedom-thought-conscience-religion-and-belief. The report referred to earlier, to which you initially responded, adopts the same approach; treating atheism as a religion.

Why is this important?; because in light of the broad scope of the term “religion,” limiting the right to express a theistic belief will logically result in limiting the right to express a non-theistic and or an atheistic belief. Add to this the many forms by which those beliefs/non beliefs can be expressed and we arguably end up with censorship of art, music, written, electronic, etc etc etc etc.
 

Kwality

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Interesting employment issue at the CSIRO over a request from Adani - to what level of comment is a CSIRO scientist entitled, is every employee of the CSIRO covered by the same employee terms, do the conditions of employment have the same level as as RA seek to blind Folau to .....

Another opportunity for the carpetbaggers on either side of the Adani debate to parade their credentials?
Not meaning to derail the Folau issue, another thread?
 

shellyg

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See this Christian family who argued paying taxes was against God's will and had to pay $2.3 million? And here is what Justice holt said.


"I believe the submissions to be honestly and genuinely held beliefs rather than an attempt to avoid tax liabilities.

"But in my view, the Bible effectively said that civil matters and the law of God operate in two different spheres."

 

Monniehawk

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Thanks, your response provides an opportunity to once again touch on an important point.

While you might be technically correct, as previously mentioned, for the purposes of establishing the scope of the right to hold and express a religious belief, the UN Human Rights Committee has adopted a broad approach to the term “religion;” it has said that ‘religion’ should be interpreted broadly to include ‘theistic, non-theistic and atheistic beliefs, as well as the right not to profess any religion or belief. It’s clear that atheism has been intentionally treated as a religious belief, otherwise the UNHRC would not have made additional express reference to “the right not to profess any religion or belief;” you can see this for yourself in UN Human Rights Committee, General Comment 22, Article 18 (Forty-eighth session, 1993), UN Doc. CCPR/C/21/Rev.1/Add.4 (1993).

if you prefer the above explanation in the context of an Australian jurisdiction look here http://humanrights.vgso.vic.gov.au/charter-guide/charter-rights-by-section/section-14-freedom-thought-conscience-religion-and-belief. The report referred to earlier, to which you initially responded, adopts the same approach; treating atheism as a religion.

Why is this important?; because in light of the broad scope of the term “religion,” limiting the right to express a theistic belief will logically result in limiting the right to express a non-theistic and or an atheistic belief. Add to this the many forms by which those beliefs/non beliefs can be expressed and we arguably end up with censorship of art, music, written, electronic, etc etc etc etc.
I do like the broader concept of religion as quoted above, because it satisfies a number of anomalies for me. I consider philosophy as encompassing religion, political and philosophical beliefs, etc., and virtually all human thought. So your concerns are well-founded, imho.
Burgess-Jackson's Taxonomy of Religion (2017) contains the following:
• A religion is theistic when it posits (i.e., assumes as a fact; postulates) the existence of at least one personal god.
• A religion is atheistic when it does not posit the existence of at least one personal god.
• A religion is monotheistic when it posits the existence of exactly one personal god.
• A religion is polytheistic when it posits the existence of more than one personal god.
We could get into the semantics of "belief" vs "personally held opinion" vs "philosophical posit" vs "religion", but do need to discern atheism and theism as "religions" in the broader sense. Jainism and Buddhism are each atheistic religions- having no deities. However they could also be considered within the (rather insipid?) description of 'spiritual'.
So we can have spiritual atheism and non-spiritual atheism.
Humanism is a philosophically-based atheism, I would think.
 

Monniehawk

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See this Christian family who argued paying taxes was against God's will and had to pay $2.3 million? And here is what Justice holt said.


"I believe the submissions to be honestly and genuinely held beliefs rather than an attempt to avoid tax liabilities.

"But in my view, the Bible effectively said that civil matters and the law of God operate in two different spheres."

Yep! When queried on whether to pay taxes, Jesus said, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." Matthew 22:21
Even Jesus acknowledged the separation of church and state.
 
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Yep! When queried on whether to pay taxes, Jesus said, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." Matthew 22:21
Even Jesus acknowledged the separation of church and state.
If there was ever an historical figure we have come to know as Jesus the words that are attributed to him were probably written by someone who never met him.
 

Cooldude

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Where my Christian mates have premarital sex and treat everyone (mostly) equal (I unfortunately do know a couple who are bigots) etc.
Considering what the bible says about pre-marital sex, you can't call yourself a Christian, have sex before marriage, and still claim you are a Christian

Say what you will about the fundamentalists, but at least they are actually trying to follow that crazy book to a tee, which is what the book says a Christian has to do. Except their behaviour only shows what a dangerous book it is

Those kind of cherry picking Christians who only claim to be a Christian when it suits them or pick out certain bits of the bible to fit their own lives are as dangerous as the fundamentalists, because you'll just end up with those kind of dicks who wouldn't pay income tax because they selectively apply their religion to wiggle out of their responsibilities. Religion just ended up being the get out of jail free card for these people to use when it suits them
 

Kwality

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Whats happened to Folau in this thread
Considering what the bible says about pre-marital sex, you can't call yourself a Christian, have sex before marriage, and still claim you are a Christian

Say what you will about the fundamentalists, but at least they are actually trying to follow that crazy book to a tee, which is what the book says a Christian has to do. Except their behaviour only shows what a dangerous book it is

Those kind of cherry picking Christians who only claim to be a Christian when it suits them or pick out certain bits of the bible to fit their own lives are as dangerous as the fundamentalists, because you'll just end up with those kind of dicks who wouldn't pay income tax because they selectively apply their religion to wiggle out of their responsibilities. Religion just ended up being the get out of jail free card for these people to use when it suits them
Interesting your view of what a Christian must do ... news flash, your view doesnt count.
 
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