Roast Football Department Review Required

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Alex_Kidd! said:
I was contemplating making a new thread but this should fit in here.

Is it worth looking into taking the captaincy off Boak next season?

While Boak has been a true servant and leader as captain of this club, he has not been the superstar we know he can be these past few seasons. When he is in the zone there is no reason why he shouldn't be listed as one of the elite players of the completion. I don't know where his game fell apart but he obviously has a tonne of pressure on him whilst also having the scrutinising SA media spotlight on him as the the face of an underperforming club that seems to take 1 step forward and 2 steps back every week.

Giving the captaincy to someone else could take some of the burden and pressure off of him to allow him to concentrate more on his own game, which would hopefully bring back his old form and reinvigorate him as a player.
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Who's the someone cos I don't see anybody.
 

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Whenever the finger gets pointed the people who always seem to escape scrutiny are those responsible for our recruiting and list management decisions. People like Geoff Parker, Anthony Parkin, Chris Drain have not really built a list with depth to it. OK, we have picked up good players like Wingard, Powell- Pepper and Wines but these are first round picks and we expect good players at that level. It is the second and third rounds and our inability to trade good players into the club that is the real concern. When we talk big and put half our list on the table during trade week and cannot work a deal for any of them there has to be a question mark surrounding the depth on our list.

We should also be looking at Chris Davies as we have suffered since Peter Rhode left. I am not sure who was responsible for the long term deals given to over rated performers like Hartlett and Lobbe but I imagine Davies had a big say in it. Davies doesn't have the Australian Rules background that Rhode had and that must be a disadvantage when dealing with other clubs and player managers. After all our talk of 'trading big', year's trade week turned out to be an embarrassment as we attempted to flog Hamish Hartlett around the AFL. We need someone who can swing a deal or two and who has the acumen to realise that players like Lobbe should be let go when the deal is offered.

If we are going to look at the Football Department it should not be confined to the Coaching staff.
 
raptalia said:
Whenever the finger gets pointed the people who always seem to escape scrutiny are those responsible for our recruiting and list management decisions. People like Geoff Parker, Anthony Parkin, Chris Drain have not really built a list with depth to it. OK, we have picked up good players like Wingard, Powell- Pepper and Wines but these are first round picks and we expect good players at that level. It is the second and third rounds and our inability to trade good players into the club that is the real concern. When we talk big and put half our list on the table during trade week and cannot work a deal for any of them there has to be a question mark surrounding the depth on our list.

We should also be looking at Chris Davies as we have suffered since Peter Rhode left. I am not sure who was responsible for the long term deals given to over rated performers like Hartlett and Lobbe but I imagine Davies had a big say in it. Davies doesn't have the Australian Rules background that Rhode had and that must be a disadvantage when dealing with other clubs and player managers. After all our talk of 'trading big', year's trade week turned out to be an embarrassment as we attempted to flog Hamish Hartlett around the AFL. We need someone who can swing a deal or two and who has the acumen to realise that players like Lobbe should be let go when the deal is offered.

If we are going to look at the Football Department it should not be confined to the Coaching staff.
Click to expand...
Our recruitment has been the only highlight the last couple of years.
 
raptalia said:
Whenever the finger gets pointed the people who always seem to escape scrutiny are those responsible for our recruiting and list management decisions. People like Geoff Parker, Anthony Parkin, Chris Drain have not really built a list with depth to it. OK, we have picked up good players like Wingard, Powell- Pepper and Wines but these are first round picks and we expect good players at that level. It is the second and third rounds and our inability to trade good players into the club that is the real concern. When we talk big and put half our list on the table during trade week and cannot work a deal for any of them there has to be a question mark surrounding the depth on our list.

We should also be looking at Chris Davies as we have suffered since Peter Rhode left. I am not sure who was responsible for the long term deals given to over rated performers like Hartlett and Lobbe but I imagine Davies had a big say in it. Davies doesn't have the Australian Rules background that Rhode had and that must be a disadvantage when dealing with other clubs and player managers. After all our talk of 'trading big', year's trade week turned out to be an embarrassment as we attempted to flog Hamish Hartlett around the AFL. We need someone who can swing a deal or two and who has the acumen to realise that players like Lobbe should be let go when the deal is offered.

If we are going to look at the Football Department it should not be confined to the Coaching staff.
Click to expand...

This is a good post but I don't necessarily agree.

I think recently our recruiting has been significantly better than it was. As I posted a couple of weeks back and said on the podcast, our issue lies in development, not recruiting. Drafting Mitch Harvey was a ******* ridiculous decision but outside of that, I feel our drafting has been good for the last 4-5 years.

The problem is we are able to get the likes of Young, O'Shea, Impey, AhChee, Moore et al up to a certain level, but they never go beyond that level. To win premierships you need to turn decent talent into very good dependable players. We get decent talent and get them to a certain level of AFL competence, but no more.

Hawthorn were able to turn late draft picks or no-name trades of the likes of Clint Young, Brent Guerra, Luke Breust, Matt Suckling, Ben Stratton, Taylor Duryea, Paul Puopolo into premiership heroes. All those names have played great games on the biggest stage.

That is our issue. So is it money? Is it a lack of resource? Is it a lack of development staff or innovation? This is why we haven't been able to take the next step and why we've stagnated at an under achieving level over the last 3 years.
 
Macca19 said:
This is a good post but I don't necessarily agree.

I think recently our recruiting has been significantly better than it was. As I posted a couple of weeks back and said on the podcast, our issue lies in development, not recruiting. Drafting Mitch Harvey was a ******* ridiculous decision but outside of that, I feel our drafting has been good for the last 4-5 years.

The problem is we are able to get the likes of Young, O'Shea, Impey, AhChee, Moore et al up to a certain level, but they never go beyond that level. To win premierships you need to turn decent talent into very good dependable players. We get decent talent and get them to a certain level of AFL competence, but no more.

Hawthorn were able to turn late draft picks or no-name trades of the likes of Clint Young, Brent Guerra, Luke Breust, Matt Suckling, Ben Stratton, Taylor Duryea, Paul Puopolo into premiership heroes. All those names have played great games on the biggest stage.

That is our issue. So is it money? Is it a lack of resource? Is it a lack of development staff or innovation? This is why we haven't been able to take the next step and why we've stagnated at an under achieving level over the last 3 years.
Click to expand...

You make a good point and it is hard to know what the problem is re the young players who seem to plateau with us. It is something that has been with us since Chocco's later years. We traded Newton and Moore to other Clubs and they didn't blossom so you have to think they were not up to it. I rather think if we move AhChee and Young on they will be the same.

I guess the question is, are we recruiting the right players but not developing them to their full potential or are the players spuds who have peaked despite the efforts of our Coaches ? Or perhaps it is a combination of both ? Whatever the answer I think any review needs to apply to our entire Football Department not simply the Coaching staff.
 
Macca19 said:
This is a good post but I don't necessarily agree?

I think recently our recruiting has been significantly better than it was. As I posted a couple of weeks back and said on the podcast, our issue lies in development, not recruiting. Drafting Mitch Harvey was a ******* ridiculous decision but outside of that, I feel our drafting has been good for the last 4-5 years.

The problem is we are able to get the likes of Young, O'Shea, Impey, AhChee, Moore et al up to a certain level, but they never go beyond that level. To win premierships you need to turn decent talent into very good dependable players. We get decent talent and get them to a certain level of AFL competence, but no more.

Hawthorn were able to turn late draft picks or no-name trades of the likes of Clint Young, Brent Guerra, Luke Breust, Matt Suckling, Ben Stratton, Taylor Duryea, Paul Puopolo into premiership heroes. All those names have played great games on the biggest stage.

That is our issue. So is it money? Is it a lack of resource? Is it a lack of development staff or innovation? This is why we haven't been able to take the next step and why we've stagnated at an under achieving level over the last 3 years.
Click to expand...
Why do we recruit so many flankers first as forward flankers and then try and turn them into back flankers and vice versa.

There is your fundamental problem I think. A philosophy that doesn't get in enough of the right players. We seem to hate drafting enough ruckmen, enough KPF's and tall enough KPD's. We have only just started to recruit enough hard nuts to play in the middle.
 
wharfie_1870 said:
We didn't actually trade either of those players, both were delisted, but I get your point. :)
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We tried to trade them but nobody wanted to pay anything for them because they knew we would delist them.
 
wharfie_1870 said:
We didn't actually trade either of those players, both were delisted, but I get your point. :)
Click to expand...

Yeah, the point is we got nothing for them.

What they do after they leave is largely irrelevant, but sometimes you have to roll the dice and cash in, even if you're high on an ultimately surplus player. See Eagleton, Lobbe.

Not pulling the trigger on Butcher at the end of 2014 when it was bleedingly obvious Ken didn't rate him is another example. Even if we got a 3rd or 4th rounder, it's at least something.

How did we let someone like O'Shea's value dwindle to zero? He was super-valuable during 2013-14 and then, nothing. Gone.

That side of our list management has been diabolical.
 

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"It's ok everyone, Adam Thomson, who we drafted with a first rounder, eventually went to Richmond and did nothing. So letting him go wasn't a mistake."

Wasting a draft pick?
Botching his development?

Never mind, he did nothing after he left so it's all good.

See Moore.
 
Macca19 said:
This is a good post but I don't necessarily agree.

I think recently our recruiting has been significantly better than it was. As I posted a couple of weeks back and said on the podcast, our issue lies in development, not recruiting. Drafting Mitch Harvey was a ******* ridiculous decision but outside of that, I feel our drafting has been good for the last 4-5 years.

The problem is we are able to get the likes of Young, O'Shea, Impey, AhChee, Moore et al up to a certain level, but they never go beyond that level. To win premierships you need to turn decent talent into very good dependable players. We get decent talent and get them to a certain level of AFL competence, but no more.

Hawthorn were able to turn late draft picks or no-name trades of the likes of Clint Young, Brent Guerra, Luke Breust, Matt Suckling, Ben Stratton, Taylor Duryea, Paul Puopolo into premiership heroes. All those names have played great games on the biggest stage.

That is our issue. So is it money? Is it a lack of resource? Is it a lack of development staff or innovation? This is why we haven't been able to take the next step and why we've stagnated at an under achieving level over the last 3 years.
Click to expand...
Good post. Not only does the development of our players stagnate but our skills also stagnate. My pet hate with Port for a long time.
 
raptalia said:
You make a good point and it is hard to know what the problem is re the young players who seem to plateau with us. It is something that has been with us since Chocco's later years. We traded Newton and Moore to other Clubs and they didn't blossom so you have to think they were not up to it. I rather think if we move AhChee and Young on they will be the same.

I guess the question is, are we recruiting the right players but not developing them to their full potential or are the players spuds who have peaked despite the efforts of our Coaches ? Or perhaps it is a combination of both ? Whatever the answer I think any review needs to apply to our entire Football Department not simply the Coaching staff.
Click to expand...
I think for what ever reason, once they have been in the Port Adelaide system, something happens and they never reach their potential, which ever club they go to. Players can come to our club with reasonable skills and after a couple of years in our system their skills drop to below AFL standard.
 
Macca19 said:
This is a good post but I don't necessarily agree.

I think recently our recruiting has been significantly better than it was. As I posted a couple of weeks back and said on the podcast, our issue lies in development, not recruiting. Drafting Mitch Harvey was a ******* ridiculous decision but outside of that, I feel our drafting has been good for the last 4-5 years.

The problem is we are able to get the likes of Young, O'Shea, Impey, AhChee, Moore et al up to a certain level, but they never go beyond that level. To win premierships you need to turn decent talent into very good dependable players. We get decent talent and get them to a certain level of AFL competence, but no more.

Hawthorn were able to turn late draft picks or no-name trades of the likes of Clint Young, Brent Guerra, Luke Breust, Matt Suckling, Ben Stratton, Taylor Duryea, Paul Puopolo into premiership heroes. All those names have played great games on the biggest stage.

That is our issue. So is it money? Is it a lack of resource? Is it a lack of development staff or innovation? This is why we haven't been able to take the next step and why we've stagnated at an under achieving level over the last 3 years.
Click to expand...

Robbie gray himself said he only became elite once he got seriously injured with that knee and it made him realise what he wanted from his career and that he could be training a lot harder. It's like we either can't impress on the squad the intense work ethic required to become elite, or we don't recruit players that have the work ethic.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
wharfie_1870 said:
We didn't actually trade either of those players, both were delisted, but I get your point. :)
Click to expand...

Sorry my mistake but the point is made. As REH says we couldn't trade these guys because the other clubs knew were going to delist them anyway and simply waited until they were delisted.
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
Why do we recruit so many flankers first as forward flankers and then try and turn them into back flankers and vice versa.

There is your fundamental problem I think. A philosophy that doesn't get in enough of the right players. We seem to hate drafting enough ruckmen, enough KPF's and tall enough KPD's. We have only just started to recruit enough hard nuts to play in the middle.
Click to expand...

At least we put a couple of talls on the Rookie List this year but it seems we have to learn the hard way.

I remember that we both made the point at the end of 2015 that our list managers put the seven dwarfs on the Rookie List then we lost Paddy Ryder (who we knew was a chance to be suspended) then Lobbe went down which left us with one untried skinny kid as the Club's only recognised ruckman. We were fortunate that Trengove stepped up which was more good fortune than good list managementt. At the time we re-Rookie Listed 179cm Sam Russell who was going nowhere at the expense of a fourth ruckman. What makes this more mind boggling is at the end of 2014 after Matthew Lobbe had his best season as our lone ruckman and came through without injury Ken made the comment, 'we dodged a bullet there' when asked about our playing one ruckman. Admittedly we went and got Ryder to ease the situation but we lost that lesson one season later.

We can file all that alongside the Lobbe non trade and the multi year Hartlett deal as examples of poor list management.

From the responses to my original post I think that many of us recognise that something is flawed and it needs to be fixed. The problem is identifying exactly what it is. Maybe replacing a Coach or two will fix the problem but I think many of us suspect it goes deeper than that.
 
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