Football in Australia responds magnificently to World Cup disappointment.

le dominateur

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#26
I don't think the suns will have an issue, there's a huge expat Victorian community in Gold Coast to draw on. Their only problem will be converting them from their old Victorian club they follow to supporting the suns instead.

As for GWS - they are doomed already. Go to Sydney and you will speak with people who tell stories of the AFL offering local councils money under the table to erect AFL goalposts on ovals to "give the appearance that AFL is being played". Many pubs refuse to screen Aussie Rules fixtures - something like 100,000 viewers in Sydney only watched the AFL Grand Final and most of them would be ex Victorians. It makes much more sense for the AFL to start a club in Tassie IMO or even merge North with a new team down there, and have them play 1/2 their games in Tassie and 1/2 in Melbourne/Ballarat.
The delusion is getting stronger. Choking back the tears princess after the failed WC bid. Here's the ratings, Sydney is highlighted.

1 Seven’s AFL: Grand Final Re-Match: Collingwood V St Kilda Seven 2,679,000 405,000 1,311,000 375,000 274,000 314,000

2 Seven’s AFL: Grand Final: Collingwood V St Kilda Seven 2,777,000 368,000 1,475,000 283,000 314,000 338,000.

:)
 

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#27
The delusion is getting stronger. Choking back the tears princess after the failed WC bid. Here's the ratings, Sydney is highlighted.

1 Seven’s AFL: Grand Final Re-Match: Collingwood V St Kilda Seven 2,679,000 405,000 1,311,000 375,000 274,000 314,000

2 Seven’s AFL: Grand Final: Collingwood V St Kilda Seven 2,777,000 368,000 1,475,000 283,000 314,000 338,000.

:)
Yeah, but there'll be some reason why those figures aren't accurate though
 

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#28
The Giants is very much a necessary evil.

In 20 years time might be when you gauge success or not. In 50 years time you'd hope people say that they got it 100% right.

QUOTE]

This is exactly how the success of the A League should be measured. The entire league is 6 years old. With a new league there was always going to be peaks and troughs.

The AFL are not going to can GWS if attendances decline in the first few years. It is a long term project that is going to need a huge amount of work. The A League is also a long term project. With the distraction of the World Cup bid gone the FFA should be able to apply more focus on improving the A League
 

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#29
Melbourne Victory and Brisbane Roar have just played out a pulsating draw with an excellent crowd. Superb atmosphere, it really sounded like there was 50,000 fans there. The passion and support was enormous, and just goes to show that the World Cup was viewed as a bonus, not essentlial to the development of the league.
A slight improvement on the 1600 the Heart had :)
 

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#30
The Giants is very much a necessary evil.

In 20 years time might be when you gauge success or not. In 50 years time you'd hope people say that they got it 100% right.

QUOTE]

This is exactly how the success of the A League should be measured. The entire league is 6 years old. With a new league there was always going to be peaks and troughs.

The AFL are not going to can GWS if attendances decline in the first few years. It is a long term project that is going to need a huge amount of work. The A League is also a long term project. With the distraction of the World Cup bid gone the FFA should be able to apply more focus on improving the A League

There's a massive, massive difference between bringing in, in this case, one new club that is deemed a risk, into a League that is averaging 38K attendances across 16 clubs currently and 176 H&A matches (plus the better avg for the finals series), for a league with the nations highest broadcast rights package, etc etc......compared to the A-League where, yes, it's only 6 years in, (although the old NSL struggled along for 25 years before imploding).

The biggest problem by far for the A-League is that there's no 'home fortress' market. The NRL has Sydney/NSW, the AFL has Melbourne. The AFL is pretty well fortified in SA and WA as well. The NRL is relatively fortified in QLD - - so, primary and secondary fortress markets. All are streets ahead of the A-League.

So, comparing a single club attached to a successful league is vastly different to an entire league that is struggling and not quite sure how to present itself. The 'necessity' of a 2nd Melb and Syd team really should've been apparent from the outset. Why on earth they opted for a side in NZ is astounding. However, to insert Hearts now and look at a 2nd Sydney side is seriously not affordable. And why a team in Townsville was ever thought to be a good idea???

And, sad to say, MVFC used to have 'blockbuster' matches vs SFC, and Ade Reds, ......, now that's all been eroded and it seems only the local derbies will be the must attend games in Melbourne now.
 

mustapha

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#31
There's a massive, massive difference between bringing in, in this case, one new club that is deemed a risk, into a League that is averaging 38K attendances across 16 clubs currently and 176 H&A matches (plus the better avg for the finals series), for a league with the nations highest broadcast rights package, etc etc......compared to the A-League where, yes, it's only 6 years in, (although the old NSL struggled along for 25 years before imploding).

The biggest problem by far for the A-League is that there's no 'home fortress' market. The NRL has Sydney/NSW, the AFL has Melbourne. The AFL is pretty well fortified in SA and WA as well. The NRL is relatively fortified in QLD - - so, primary and secondary fortress markets. All are streets ahead of the A-League.

So, comparing a single club attached to a successful league is vastly different to an entire league that is struggling and not quite sure how to present itself. The 'necessity' of a 2nd Melb and Syd team really should've been apparent from the outset. Why on earth they opted for a side in NZ is astounding. However, to insert Hearts now and look at a 2nd Sydney side is seriously not affordable. And why a team in Townsville was ever thought to be a good idea???

And, sad to say, MVFC used to have 'blockbuster' matches vs SFC, and Ade Reds, ......, now that's all been eroded and it seems only the local derbies will be the must attend games in Melbourne now.
The A League was always going to face the challenge of competing against codes and teams that have been established for years. The sports market is not a blank canvas. If it becomes the second code of choice in every state it will be considered a resounding success.

Success of a new league or club should be measured over at least twenty to thirty years. Of course a six year old league is going to have more instabilty than a league that is over one hundred years old. If you are prepared to make sensible judgements on GWS only after considering an appropriate period of time why do you dismiss the A League after such a short period of time?
 

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#32
The A League was always going to face the challenge of competing against codes and teams that have been established for years. The sports market is not a blank canvas. If it becomes the second code of choice in every state it will be considered a resounding success.

Success of a new league or club should be measured over at least twenty to thirty years. Of course a six year old league is going to have more instabilty than a league that is over one hundred years old. If you are prepared to make sensible judgements on GWS only after considering an appropriate period of time why do you dismiss the A League after such a short period of time?
ah, but, here you need to be careful of your standards.

The AFL as a league is not over 100 years old, nor the NRL.

Sure, the AFL morphed out of the VFL, and the NRL morphed out of the NSWRL.
And, in reality, with Glory, Roar and almost Adelaide, the old NSL morphed into the NSL. At very least - there was a national soccer league competing in the market - so, whilst the current 'packaging' is different - it's not a brand new market presence. Not even the move to summer - that'd happened in the NSL days. (granted, the VFL to AFL was more 'stable', and the NSWRL to NRL was more stable OTHER than the little Superleague episode!!!!).

We've had over 30 years of a national soccer comp without one really looking like succeeding other than V3 of the HAL??

The key point though is the lack of a sporting vacuum. Where some A-League advocates a couple of years ago got carried away and said, look at the J-League, or even the MLS in the US,........the reality is, there is not really a domestic 'football' market like Australia anywhere in the world. And the Melbourne and Sydney markets are probably the 2 most contested football markets in the world.

Running 2nd is a big enough challenge. IN Melbourne, perhaps, in Sydney, well, the Swans and 'Tahs are well ahead of SFC, although in NSW you have 3 HAL clubs vs soon to be 2 AFL and the 'Tahs and Canberra can sorta be counted.
In QLD, is the Roar ahead of the Lions? Do either of the GCU and Fury surpass the yet to play a senior game Suns?
Mebbe #2 in Perth, although the Force would contest that. And, clearly number 2 in SA.
 

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Thread starter #33
Have a look at how the J League developed, up against professional baseball and Sumo Wrestling. First 3 or 4 seasons were a success, and then the league suffered a drop in attendances and profile for the next 5 or 6 years. Now, the J League is averaging almost 20K despite being only 20 years old and competing in a crowded market. Clubs are turning over on average 42 million dollars each, more then the average AFL club despite the league being only 18 years old.
 

le dominateur

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#35
Have a look at how the J League developed, up against professional baseball and Sumo Wrestling. First 3 or 4 seasons were a success, and then the league suffered a drop in attendances and profile for the next 5 or 6 years. Now, the J League is averaging almost 20K despite being only 20 years old and competing in a crowded market. Clubs are turning over on average 42 million dollars each, more then the average AFL club despite the league being only 18 years old.
Just goes to show that soccer only becomes the no1 sport in a country when there is no credible established sports. Thanks for pointing that out Einstein.
 
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#36
Just goes to show that soccer only becomes the no1 sport in a country when there is no credible established sports. Thanks for pointing that out Einstein.
Uhh... mate... baseball is monumental in Japan. That's why they're two-time and reigning champions.

Your theory of ranking codes is bunk. The strongest code in any country is almost always the first to arrive. That's why rugby isn't a big deal in Germany, or why AFL isn't successful anywhere bar Australia.
 

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Subprime

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#38
Uhh... mate... baseball is monumental in Japan. That's why they're two-time and reigning champions.

Your theory of ranking codes is bunk. The strongest code in any country is almost always the first to arrive. That's why rugby isn't a big deal in Germany, or why AFL isn't successful anywhere bar Australia.
Need to bookmark this one for when you ask why isn't footy played anywhere else in the world
 

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#40
Have a look at how the J League developed, up against professional baseball and Sumo Wrestling. First 3 or 4 seasons were a success, and then the league suffered a drop in attendances and profile for the next 5 or 6 years. Now, the J League is averaging almost 20K despite being only 20 years old and competing in a crowded market. Clubs are turning over on average 42 million dollars each, more then the average AFL club despite the league being only 18 years old.

and that's relevant to Australia how?

There are 3 other professional football codes in Australia that makes the comparison to Japan pretty lame.

That's the point here - - it ain't just gonna happen. Most the hopes and dreams were pivoted around winning the rights to host a WC.

The main danger for you is that all your best players will be lured to the J-League!!! For interest, with footy back in 2008 it was reported the average turn over was $32 million per AFL club. Not bad for just one of 4 football codes in a nation of just over 20 million.
 

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#41
I don't think Football fans have been magnificent at all this year. They're AWOL, and it's starting to piss me off! I'm less confident about the A-League's future than I used to be a couple of years ago. I agree with those who compare it to GWS as whole - in that it is a generational endeavour.

But the question is will the A-League be able to sustain the $20m losses in the medium term? We don't have 20yrs to turn it around. It's out of cash now. And a couple of thousand people turning up to watch the new Franchises that were supposed to justify an increased TV deal just doesn't equate for me.

I wonder what else the FFA can really do at this point? They plead it wasn't World Cup or bust (fingers crossed they were right) but I it sure felt like it to me. We've technically bankrupted ourselves with aggressive expansion (aimed at hopefully doubling the TV rights deal). And now we have Franchises that can only survive as playthings for billionaires & multi-millionaires.

I'm worried it'll be the "new tv deal or bust" strategy now.

Pundits like Cockerill are basically saying the solution is throw more buckets of money at the problem - perhaps by getting Lowy to fund the League. But we'd be talking about a $50m injection just to get the League back on a even keel. And after all that $$ goes down the plug hole, we'd still have a League losing millions of dollars a year unless something drastically changes.

Syd FC may well have move out of the SFS now. We lost $6m last year and we won the comp. God know what the bottom line will look like this year. :(
 

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Thread starter #42
and that's relevant to Australia how?

There are 3 other professional football codes in Australia that makes the comparison to Japan pretty lame.

That's the point here - - it ain't just gonna happen. Most the hopes and dreams were pivoted around winning the rights to host a WC.

The main danger for you is that all your best players will be lured to the J-League!!! For interest, with footy back in 2008 it was reported the average turn over was $32 million per AFL club. Not bad for just one of 4 football codes in a nation of just over 20 million.
Typical bs speak from AFL fanboys as usual. At no stage were all the hopes and dreams of football pinned on hosting a World Cup. A World Cup was always viewed as a bonus to the development of football rather then essential to the development of football.

An average turnover of $32 million per club for a league that is 100 plus years old ain't that special at all. Blackburn Rovers, a small club in England, turns over 50 million pounds per year. And that's in a country of 47 million residents and 92 professional football clubs. AFL clubs have a relatively poor turnover compared to the size of their crowds.
 

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#43
Typical bs speak from AFL fanboys as usual. At no stage were all the hopes and dreams of football pinned on hosting a World Cup. A World Cup was always viewed as a bonus to the development of football rather then essential to the development of football.
I think the truth lies somewhere between those two extremes. In FFA's own words they were hoping that winning the bid would "turbocharge" the development of the game in Australia. So it was at least a significant part of the picture.
 

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#45
Typical bs speak from AFL fanboys as usual. At no stage were all the hopes and dreams of football pinned on hosting a World Cup. A World Cup was always viewed as a bonus to the development of football rather then essential to the development of football.

An average turnover of $32 million per club for a league that is 100 plus years old ain't that special at all. Blackburn Rovers, a small club in England, turns over 50 million pounds per year. And that's in a country of 47 million residents and 92 professional football clubs. AFL clubs have a relatively poor turnover compared to the size of their crowds.
I said 'most',

not 'all'.

It's back to the drawing board now that the best case scenario has to be rather drastically down graded, because, prior to the WC bid vote - the potential 'best case' was a once in a lifetime scenario that CAN NOT be replicated.

btw - half your problem is you keep jumping off shore for your consolation or modelling, but, even then get it wrong.

Japan had a Japan Soccer League back in 1965. Clubs dating back to the 50s. So, to claim the J-League is only 18 years old and then crap on about AFL being 100 years plus old - - that doesn't work. The AFL as a league is only 20 years old.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. How smooth a transition the JSL had to the J-League, or the NSL had to the A-League, or the VFL had to the AFL (and VFA to VFL) etc etc - that's part of the codes journey.
 

Zidane98

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Thread starter #46
I said 'most',

not 'all'.

It's back to the drawing board now that the best case scenario has to be rather drastically down graded, because, prior to the WC bid vote - the potential 'best case' was a once in a lifetime scenario that CAN NOT be replicated.

btw - half your problem is you keep jumping off shore for your consolation or modelling, but, even then get it wrong.

Japan had a Japan Soccer League back in 1965. Clubs dating back to the 50s. So, to claim the J-League is only 18 years old and then crap on about AFL being 100 years plus old - - that doesn't work. The AFL as a league is only 20 years old.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. How smooth a transition the JSL had to the J-League, or the NSL had to the A-League, or the VFL had to the AFL (and VFA to VFL) etc etc - that's part of the codes journey.
VFL & AFL are the same organisation with a different name. The only clubs that compete in the AFL that weren't in the original VFL are Adelaide Crows, Port Power and Freo. Every other team was in the VFL.

NSL & A League are two completely different organisations with almost nothing in common. Only 2 teams survived - Adelaide United (who started up in 2003 anyway) and Perth Glory (who started in 1996). In other words, the 2 newest clubs in the NSL who had the least historical connection to the league.

A League is 5 years old, AFL is 100 years old. Surely you aren't comparing the change from NSL to A League to the VFL changing its name to AFL?

JSL to J League is a different kettle of fish; JSL was an amateur competition and Japan didn't have a serious football competition until the J League began in 1992.
 
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#47
NSL & A League are two completely different organisations with almost nothing in common. Only 2 teams survived - Adelaide United (who started up in 2003 anyway) and Perth Glory (who started in 1996). In other words, the 2 newest clubs in the NSL who had the least historical connection to the league.
You know that I'm on your side, but have to correct you there.

- Brisbane Roar were originally the Queensland Lions, who played in the NSL at one point, but I believe that by the time the A-League was founded they were in the state league. Completely rebranded.

- New Zealand Knights played in the NSL as the Football Kingz. Completely rebranded.

- Newcastle United Jets played in the NSL as Newcastle United. Completely rebranded.
 

McCrann

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#48
You know that I'm on your side, but have to correct you there.

- Brisbane Roar were originally the Queensland Lions, who played in the NSL at one point, but I believe that by the time the A-League was founded they were in the state league. Completely rebranded.

- New Zealand Knights played in the NSL as the Football Kingz. Completely rebranded.

- Newcastle United Jets played in the NSL as Newcastle United. Completely rebranded.
Dimenhydrinate is right.

The only new clubs in A-League Season 1 were Melbourne Victory (to move past the South Melbourne/ Melbourne Knights rivalry), Sydney FC (to do a similar thing with all the Sydney NSW clubs) and Central Coast Mariners.

That's not a criticism of the A-League - it would be virtually impossible to start a viable competition up with 8 start-up clubs - but it is a fact.


Newcastle Jets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_United_Jets_FC

The club was formed in 2000 when it joined the National Soccer League (NSL) as Newcastle United,[3] and is one of only three former NSL clubs to appear in the A-League.


Brisbane Roar/ Queensland Roar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisbane_Roar_FC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queensland_Lions_Soccer_Club

The club was founded in 1957 as Hollandia-Inala Soccer Club by Dutch immigrants. From the start they were based at grounds in the Brisbane suburb of Richlands, where they still play. In the early 1970s, all clubs were required to abandon 'ethnic' names and they then adopted the name Brisbane Lions.


In 1977 the Lions were invited to play in the National Soccer League and played in the league as Brisbane Lions until the end of the 1988 season. Former Manchester United and Ireland legend George Best made four appearances for the team during the 1983/84 season. From 1989 the Brisbane Lions played in the Brisbane Premier League. After coming to an agreement with the newly formed Brisbane Lions AFL club, they changed their name to the current Queensland Lions.


In 2004 it was announced that the Lions had won the right to compete in the A-League. Operating as Queensland Roar the club was once again represented in an Australian national league.


New Zealand Knights
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Knights_FC

Football Kingz FC (promoted as Auckland Kingz within Australia) joined the Australian National Soccer League in 1999 and proceeded to play in the last five seasons of the NSL, failing to qualify for the playoffs in every season. The club was originally to use the spelling of "Kings", however this was changed to the Kingz after receiving legal threats from another Australian sporting franchise.

Restructuring Football Kingz into New Zealand Knights

Football Kingz then had a name change into New Zealand Knights as a new restructured franchise for Australia's new national football competition called the Hyundai A-League. Market research carried out by the club, to determine the viability of a new identity for the team, indicated that 76% of respondents were in favour of a name change. When that research was focused on those aged 35 and under, the percentage in favour of a change rose to 90%. Further to that, the name of "Knights" were polled best of all names suggested in the survey, a clear 30% higher than any other option.[1]




Perth Glory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perth_Glory_FC

In 1995, another consortium led by Nick Tana made a bid for entry into the National Soccer League. Perth Glory was subsequently licensed to join the 1996/7 NSL season.


Adelaide United
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelaide_United_FC

The club was founded in 2003 to fill the place vacated by Adelaide City in the former National Soccer League (NSL).

A-League

Adelaide United were announced as one of eight teams to compete in the first season of the A-League, and are, along with the Perth Glory and Newcastle Jets, one of only three teams to survive from the National Soccer League's last season. - New Zealand Knights no longer compete in the A-League and Brisbane Roar did not compete in the last season of the NSL.


Yep - 5/8 A-League clubs were not new at all, its actually a good piece of trivia that most people wouldn't be aware of - they marketed it pretty well as a "brand new competition", it was more of a repackaging.
 

Zidane98

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Thread starter #49
You know that I'm on your side, but have to correct you there.

- Brisbane Roar were originally the Queensland Lions, who played in the NSL at one point, but I believe that by the time the A-League was founded they were in the state league. Completely rebranded.

- New Zealand Knights played in the NSL as the Football Kingz. Completely rebranded.

- Newcastle United Jets played in the NSL as Newcastle United. Completely rebranded.
I am talking about clubs which competed in both the A League & the NSL in their current form - that's Adelaide United & Perth Glory.
 
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