Roast Forward Structure

[son of dominator]

Wiggins and Fisher, so two players who can't kick and are poor chasers and one who is a bad tackler. How does this help us? White maybe.

We need to fix how our forwards and midfielders play when this kind of defence is implemented against us. It wont matter who we bring in who we could have still had playing for us, if we go about it that way and with that game style against those sort of opposition we will still get slaughtered. Put blugger and Carey down there, they still would struggle in an over crowded forward line and we still would open ourselves up to getting smashed on the rebound. We are pathetic, we are not up with the game styles of modern football.

We need to get to training and work our asses off on a better setup for our forwards and mids when we go forward.

At least Wiggins and Fisher know where to lead to, can read the play and can take a mark, unlike Carlos and Hampson - both Wiggins and Fisher would offer more than Carlos and Hampson at this stage.

 

[gbatman]

Maybe we need to use St. Kilda, Collingwood and the Bulldog's etc game plan. Take the opposition on, run hard move it quick like we do but hold it up when we get to half forward if the forward line is crowded and use short and sideways kicking. Make half forward our goal to get to then make the decision to go in quick or to hold it and chip it around patiently, that's what the good sides do.

 

[gbatman]

At least Wiggins and Fisher know where to lead to, can read the play and can take a mark, unlike Carlos and Hampson - both Wiggins and Fisher would offer more than Carlos and Hampson at this stage.

True, they do read the play well and might be smart enough to help open the forward line up. I would rather see Waite and Warnock come in though. Perhaps Fisher, i guess he has been scoring goals and getting the ball but we know it will only be a matter of time when hi kicking will cost us. Perhaps try Austin or White as a 3rd tall forward.

 

[Blues_FC]

Maybe we need to use St. Kilda, Collingwood and the Bulldog's etc game plan. Take the opposition on, run hard move it quick like we do but hold it up when we get to half forward if the forward line is crowded and use short and sideways kicking. Make half forward our goal to get to then make the decision to go in quick or to hold it and chip it around patiently, that's what the good sides do.

Exactly. At the moment, we'll run the ball through the corridor better than any other team, then we get near the 50 and have nobody to kick it to, so we just bomb it long and pray. DOES NOT WORK!

Slow it up, kick sideways if you have to, maintain possession and wait for a good genuine lead to kick to.

 

[gbatman]

exactly Blues FC, when we get our midfield setting up outside the forward line ready to defend and take the short sideways kicks around half forward we'll improve. Our players need to learn to hold it up and go short andsideways at half forward or to get it in there quick, this is the weakest area of our team's game at the moment.

 

[Blue Dimension]

Another issue is the indecision and inability to want to back themselves. How many times since the Hawthorn game have you seen players hesitate when attempting to take the game on.

Pauly B was like a breath of fresh air against the Dogs as he has no fear and is all class when taking the game on from the back half. The players need to take a leaf out of his book and back themselves.

Trialling Thornton as a forward would be a waste of time imo. The guy that needs to go forward is Walker. We need another KPP backman to take the second best forward and allow Bower to be the third tall back, attacking out of the backline with Armfield and Russell.

Walker's ability to take a grab and his speed and ability to provide pressure would be fantastic up forward next to Waite. Hendo should be allowed to come out and take grabs up the ground ala Riewoldt. Waite is our best chance of kicking a bag and should be leading from the square. Add your Betts, Garlett, Yarran to that, along with a decent game plan and I think that forward line is more than capable of kicking a winning score.

Oh, and i stress the need for an adequate game plan going forward... because the one we have had over the past 5-6 weeks has been disgusting. Carlton coaching staff, over to you.

 

[gbatman]

Yeah I like the idea BD. I think we need a medium sized forward who has excellent athletic ability to run hard over distance and who also can take a mark and is skilled enough to win the ball in other situations. A Chapman or Brad Johnson role.
We need someone who will start deep and push out hard up the ground.

1. Gives us an extra option at half forward.
2. Drags a man out of the forward 50 to creat space.
3. Is fit and fast enough to get back into the F50 and kick goals or hang back behind the ball and be defencive.

At this stage Garlett is our best option at this. Betts and Yarran haven't got the tank and Houlihan hasn't got the speed and is often being defencive although forcing your man to go with you by running to be dangerous is a top defencive move. Walker is possibly the best option for this. Betts has played this role in spirts and does it well but he's better closer to goal and can't sustain it.

Having good athletic forwards who can get up the ground and be dangerous could help open up the forward line, but it can also help the opposition out number us up forward, this is why sometimes we have to hold it up when we get to half forward to allow half forwards to come back, or simply get the mids and forwards to work together by having a rule where the mids can only float forward when there are less than 6 carlton players inside 50 and if the half forwards must stay out and defend if there are too many carlton players forward. I dunno, the coaches and players need to work on this.

 

[Blue since 72]

Obviously we appear to go to water when the opposition put a loose man or more into our forward line. Ratts appears reluctant to man up when this happens. Worsfold hasn't liked doing this in the past either.

Am I being simplistic here or if we go man on man when this happens we at least halve the contest rather than fighting superior numbers.

I would back our boys to at least win as many as we lose (when we've come to play of course).
At the very least we should find it easier to lock it in our forward 50 for longer.

 

[Sin City]

Am I being simplistic here or if we go man on man when this happens we at least halve the contest rather than fighting superior numbers.

No, we've been doing that and it just clogs up our forward line even worse and leaves the oppositions wide open. We need to bring their extra men out of our forward line, probably by doing what they're doing to us to stop them playing the game on their terms.

 

[Blue since 72]

No, we've been doing that and it just clogs up our forward line even worse and leaves the oppositions wide open. We need to bring their extra men out of our forward line, probably by doing what they're doing to us to stop them playing the game on their terms.

I thought man on man could force more stoppages in our forward 50 which we are pretty good at winning.

Otherwise its hardly rocket science to do what you suggest. Would love to know why this approach isn't at least tried. (rhetorical question unless you have a theory).

 

[Blue Dimension]

Yeah I like the idea BD. I think we need a medium sized forward who has excellent athletic ability to run hard over distance and who also can take a mark and is skilled enough to win the ball in other situations. A Chapman or Brad Johnson role.
We need someone who will start deep and push out hard up the ground.

1. Gives us an extra option at half forward.
2. Drags a man out of the forward 50 to creat space.
3. Is fit and fast enough to get back into the F50 and kick goals or hang back behind the ball and be defencive.

We haven't had a good medium sized forward since Matty Lappin. I see all those attributes in Walker and I've been asking for him to be played forward for 2 seasons now. In an ideal world, if we push Walker forward, our backline will require someone who can hold down CHB, allowing Bower to be the third tall. Bower could hold CHB, but I think if someone like Austin could come through, or if we go after a CHB during the trade period, that we'd only be a stronger and better team with Bower playing as the third tall.

HF: Yarran Henderson Betts
F: Walker Waite Garlett

B: Davies/Joseph if he plays there/acquired small back Jamison Bower
HB: Armfield Austin/acquired CHB Russell

​

 

[Claypigeon]

Some great points here. .. I don't however think our current forward structure is unredeemable. .. I really think that it just needs time to adapt from its new beginnings. .. This season its an all new structure that went great guns early (setting perhaps too high a standard). .. Teams have now had a chance to adapt to our structure and now comes the arms race. .. I'm not sure Carlos wont bounce back, especially after Waite re-enters the side to take the heat off. .. Hendo is tracking ok and I think we can continue to develop him. .. How about we go:

Carlos, Waite, Garlett
Houla, Hendo, Betts

and throw Yarren back into the 2s and develop his midfield and strategic kicking. .. or keep Yarren if Setanta needs to rest an injury. ..

Another option outside the square is to throw Murphy into the forward line and throw Yarren on a wing to rotate with Waite. ..

Waite is important though and it may not gel straight away this week but if he can pull his punches a little and control the aggression we can stabilise the forward line and then maybe help stabilise the midfield and its entry. .. The defence can hopefully settle if Bower and the rest can stay fit. ..

A fit McLean could be interesting. .. He might not be everyone's favourite Blue but he definitely seems to have heart and could hopefully help by passing that example onto the rest of the Midfield. ..

 

[Sin City]

I thought man on man could force more stoppages in our forward 50 which we are pretty good at winning.

Otherwise its hardly rocket science to do what you suggest. Would love to know why this approach isn't at least tried. (rhetorical question unless you have a theory).

On the first point, forwards need room to move to be creative and space to lead into so they can present. Otherwise it just plays into the oppositions hands.

On the second point, we got numbers back at times against Brisbane and it worked well for us at both ends, there were a few times I noticed when our half backs got sucked up the ground and left their forward line open and we payed for it. Lets hope we do it again on the weekend, at least until we take control of the game.

 

[gbatman]

As Sin has explained to Blue_since_72, the problem is when we go one on one, the opposition can not only go where they want but take us where they want us and that's out of the midfield and far away from their forward line.

Having a hard running medium sized marking/crumbing forward would be great. Garlett is growing in this role. Walker has been talked about for this role. At the moment he is too important for his role down back. Bower when fit could take Walker's role if Austin can get fit and hold down CHB.
I think at this stage it could help if we try pushing Yarran and Garlett up the ground. I think that often our small forwards get in the way of the tall forwards and don't work at giving them the space they need.

Quickly setting up a defencive zone when we go forward is the most important thing for the team at this stage. At least setting up so players can pick their men up as they come out of our forward line. This and getting those players who's opponants have gone in to flood loose outside half forward so we can use the sideways kicks to open up a gap and set up for a short kick.

Good sides aren't afraid to turn the ball over in their forward line because they set up a good defence and can't be hurt on the rebound so much, are more likely to get it back from the opposition and when they do they usually have an open forward line to go to because when you turn it over in your forward line all the flooding players clear out and head forward.

 

[Stamos]

The biggest problem with our forward structure is the inability to consistently get more than one fit key forward playing at the same time.

Of our 3 key forwards, one is a gun, in Jarred Waite (and he is probably not even a true key forward). However since the victory over Port Adelaide (round 8), he has only played 3 out of 7 games.

Lachie Henderson is 20, and has played 26 career matches. Since round 8, he has played 5 out of 7 matches, although was injured during Sunday's match.

Though Setanta has only missed one match, he has clearly not been fit at least since the Melbourne game in round 11.

If we get 2 of these guys fit and playing together, the smaller forwards will actually get the help they need more often than not we will at least have a chance to win. Personally, if fit, I think our best forward structure would be Setanta at FF, Hendo at CHF, Waite on the wing running forward, Hoops as a defensive HFF, and Betts, Yarran, Garlett, Simpson and Murphy rotating though.

 

[Blue since 72]

On the first point, forwards need room to move to be creative and space to lead into so they can present. Otherwise it just plays into the oppositions hands.

On the second point, we got numbers back at times against Brisbane and it worked well for us at both ends, there were a few times I noticed when our half backs got sucked up the ground and left their forward line open and we payed for it. Lets hope we do it again on the weekend, at least until we take control of the game.

Re your first point I guess thats where we've bombed it long into a crowded F50 with the hope of our talls at least bringing it to ground for our smalls but this isn't really working. Irish's lack of experience in terms of positioning and current fitness issues wouldn't help here either.

Agree with Stamos and gbatman re getting the right and fit personal on the field too.

I agree with your second point too re we seemed to get back in the Brissy game when numbers went back. Surely this isn't too hard to adhere to if the situation presents. We do look good when we run the ball out of defence in numbers ala Geelong.

 

[choo]

We haven't had a good medium sized forward since Matty Lappin.

HF: Yarran Henderson Betts
F: Walker Waite Garlett​

B: Davies/Joseph if he plays there/acquired small back Jamison Bower
HB: Armfield Austin/acquired CHB Russell​

Could we play Simmo forward in this model and move Yarran up the ground?
Simmo is better overhead and harder bodied at this stage. perhaps complements Garlett and Betts better than Yarran.
Yarran then gives us much better disposal INTO the forward line..

Simmo Waite Betts
Walker Hendo Garlett

This set up has pace, defensive skills and defensive appetite, and all 6 are good overhead.
We need people in our forward line who can mark because our disposal under pressure drops away badly.

Thoughts??

 

[Sin City]

Could we play Simmo forward in this model and move Yarran up the ground?
Simmo is better overhead and harder bodied at this stage. perhaps compements Garlett and Betts better than Yarran.
Yarran then gives us much better disposal INTO the forward line..

Simmo Waite Betts
Walker Hendo Garlett

This set up has pace, defensive skills and defensive appetite, and all 6 are good overhead.
We need people in our forward line who can mark because our disposal under pressure drops away badly.

Thoughts??

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=726132

 

[Blue since 72]

Could we play Simmo forward in this model and move Yarran up the ground?
Simmo is better overhead and harder bodied at this stage. perhaps compements Garlett and Betts better than Yarran.
Yarran then gives us much better disposal INTO the forward line..

Simmo Waite Betts
Walker Hendo Garlett

This set up has pace, defensive skills and defensive appetite, and all 6 are good overhead.
We need people in our forward line who can mark because our disposal under pressure drops away badly.

Thoughts??

Don't mind it at all. Just don't know if Yazza has the tank to play on the wing at the moment.

 

[choo]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=726132

So Wise!!

Sorry wasn't pinching your idea. Just thought of it too.
SO many threads so little time!!

I can't see any down side.
In fact i'd understand this week if we went;

IN Waite, Warnock, Grigg
OUT Setana, Hampson, Robinson

Warnock is playing this week. I think Grigg will come in to go against the hard Swans midfield. Robbo drifts out of the game too much.
Also not too sure who AJ matches up with this week so maybe he goes instead of Robbo

sorry off topic.

 

[choo]

Don't mind it at all. Just don't know if Yazza has the tank to play on the wing at the moment.

Neither do I, but with rotations it can work, particularly if he rotates some part with Betts whose clearance work at the centre bounces is excellent.
May do Yarran good to experience a midfield role and opponent.

 

[gbatman]

Yeah I like the idea of using Simmo in this role. Start deep and work hard by leeding long up the ground forcing his man to go with him.

Getting the balance of numbers in front and behind the ball is important for us, so far it's been off balance. Too many numbers forward and it's too easy to flood us and hurt us on the rebound, too many behind and we are too out numbered and struggle to get the ball to score.

 

[Blue since 72]

Send it to the MC for approval. Simmo to the forward line.
As Sin mentioned in one of his threads Simmo got us back into the Brissy game I think and TBH he does seem to come in and out of games out on the wing.

Would give more value up forward.

 

[GoBlues!]

Could we play Simmo forward in this model and move Yarran up the ground?
Simmo is better overhead and harder bodied at this stage. perhaps complements Garlett and Betts better than Yarran.
Yarran then gives us much better disposal INTO the forward line..

Simmo Waite Betts
Walker Hendo Garlett

This set up has pace, defensive skills and defensive appetite, and all 6 are good overhead.
We need people in our forward line who can mark because our disposal under pressure drops away badly.

Thoughts??

Walker has been tried on the HF line with little success. He has found his spot on the backline and provides run out of defence. Imo this is the best position for him.

I'd prefer to see Yarran on the HF line using his skill, speed and creativity. He was recruited as a forward who has the ability to create something out of nothing, and has shown that at times this year. He is only 19 and will only get better.

Also Waite and Bower have been out of the team a fair bit this year which hasn't helped our team structure. Hopefully they can both play out all the remaining games this year.

 

[Sublime]

Walker has been providing great run out of the backline, which is excellent to see.

The thing that really grinds my gears with him is his complete inability to stick a tackle. I wish they had tackle completion stats like in rugby because i'm convinced he would have the worst completion rate in the team. Whether its his shoulders or whatever i don't know but he attempts many tackles and only sticks around 1.5 per game. Its really starting to become an issue as all too often missed tackles result in a free man. Heck, even our full back has a higher tackle rate.