Forward Structures In 2010

[The Royal Sampler]

For the purposes of this analysis, I'm only looking at our four marking options in Cloke, Dawes, Anthony and Medhurst. Various combinations of these have been utilised throughout the season but I'm looking at the team's output.

Cloke: played all games
Dawes: Rounds 5-10
Medhurst: Rounds 1-7
Anthony: Rounds 1, 2, 8, 10

Cloke/Medhurst/Anthony - 2 games (Rd. 1 and 2); 19.15.129 and 12.14.86. Average 107.5 points.
Cloke/Medhurst - 2 games (Rd. 3 and 4); 4.17.41 and 17.21.123. Average 82 points.
Cloke/Medhurst/Dawes - 3 games (Rd. 5-7); 18.12.120, 24.11.155, 23.19.157. Average 144 points.
Cloke/Dawes/Anthony - 2 games (Rd. 8 and 10); 20.13.133, 11.14.80. Average 106.5 points.
Cloke/Dawes - 1 game (Rd. 9); 6.14.50. Average 50 points.

Now obviously the sample sizes we're dealing with are very small, but do you think any conclusions can be drawn on the above information? Certainly, when we have only two marking forwards, we seem to struggle, with an overall average with this structure of 71.3 points. On closer inspection, however, two of those games came against Geelong and St. Kilda.

 

[TradeDraft]

So looking at those Stats we need Medders back ASAP because our FWD line works the best with Medders as the 3rd Marking Option

 

[HFF]

What I would like to see is this:

HF: Didak-Cloke-Davis
FF: Medhurst- Anthony-Dawes.

That is our best structure for mine.

Davis/Medhurst replace O'Bree and Macaffer.

That way, it will free up Beams to play more of a midfield role rather than in the forward line where he spends alot of time as of late, Rusty too.

O'Bree has been playing as forward all year so to replace him with another genuine forward makes much more sense to me. He is gone.

Macaffer has been playing as a midfield rotation, however, with Davis and Medhurst back to play in attack, it releases Beams back into the midfield where he does his best work. Rusty can have a run in there too as part of the rotations.

Macaffer has been good and I like him but for team balance he needs to make way because we have others that are better than him in his midfield role and we have forwards that are better than our current "resting mids" who are playing in attack to do that role.

Medhurst isn't just a "marking option". He is very creative and damaging with goal assists too and his service into other forwards is top notch. Cloke, Dawes and Anthony would enjoy it whilst playing deep inside 50- particularly Anthony who does his best work deep and his goal kicking is sensational.

 

[StillWaiting5689]

I wonder if they would play all four together, last year we played Cloke, Anthony, Lbrown and Medders. If we do that with Dawes instead of Lbrown then we would obviously need to drop the second ruckman and have Dawes and Cloke chop out Jolly when required. When Fraser was in the team he plays a fourth tall so they have tried it before.
I think for it to work though we would need a fit Dick and fit Davis in the team and probably Didak to spend more time in his best spot the HFF and less on the ball.
Anthony from the square, Dawes plays the lead up the ground CHF, Cloke stays within 55 of goal with Medders floating around. Could work but not sure. When Jolly rests from the ruck he pushes to the square and Anthony moves to Clokes spot, who either goes to the Dawes position or has a run in the ruck. Not sure though

 

[TradeDraft]

I wonder if they would play all four together, last year we played Cloke, Anthony, Lbrown and Medders. If we do that with Dawes instead of Lbrown then we would obviously need to drop the second ruckman and have Dawes and Cloke chop out Jolly when required. When Fraser was in the team he plays a fourth tall so they have tried it before.
I think for it to work though we would need a fit Dick and fit Davis in the team and probably Didak to spend more time in his best spot the HFF and less on the ball.
Anthony from the square, Dawes plays the lead up the ground CHF, Cloke stays within 55 of goal with Medders floating around. Could work but not sure. When Jolly rests from the ruck he pushes to the square and Anthony moves to Clokes spot, who either goes to the Dawes position or has a run in the ruck. Not sure though

NO WAY would we play all 4 the rebounding out of Defense would be really simple and we would get Destroyed

 

[HFF]

NO WAY would we play all 4 the rebounding out of Defense would be really simple and we would get Destroyed

Why?

It's not like Medders is 196cm and 110kg.

He is a small/medium forward capable of playing tall because of his overhead ability ala Porplyzia.

He tackles ferociously and his pressure is always hot.

Davis is a genuine crumber and ranks #1 at our club for tackles inside F50 this season so his pressure is hot too.

Didak is the clever HFF type. He too is a small capable of chasing and applying pressure on his direct opponent.

The other three in Dawes-Cloke-Anthony would all be playing on key defenders, not small back pockets who could sweep the ball away with ease at ground level.

Also, don't forget there will be periods where players come to the bench etc and not all three talls will be inside 50 at the same time, especially if you see how we move the ball and our reliance on at least one key forward to present up towards the wings/centre of the ground. That means, we would have two key forwards staying at home at ALL times.

 

[StillWaiting5689]

NO WAY would we play all 4 the rebounding out of Defense would be really simple and we would get Destroyed

That would be the fear, but we did play four last year and when Fraser is down forward we have done it this year. I think we could do it but would need for dick to come in.
Defenders can't just stroll around medhurst, so with him Dick and one of Davis or Didak (the two of them rotating through the middle) the pressure would be decent. Plus I don't understand why people don't think Anthony chases, I'd say he is our best forward in that sense, much better than Cloke who whilst he does lay some bone crunching tackles isn't as good in the chasing department.
Geelong play Moons, Jpod, Hawkins and SJ which is the equivalent of our four. Then they have Byrnes, Varcoe, Stokes, Chapman and Ablett who rotate through as the smalls which is the equivalent of our Davis, Didak, Dick, Caff, Lockyer (when he plays), Beams and Steele. Teams don't just run it out of the Geelong forward line so they shouldn't be able to run it out of ours. I think coupled with the zone which creates a Collingwood wall of players to lock the ball in this could be a viable option.

 

[The Zone]

No mention of Davis? And our best performances have seen 10+ goal kickers.

I reckon Leon and Meds are under-rated for the pressure they apply on backlines. Often, when they appear to have ordinary games the stats don't reveal their impact on the psyche of opponents. The harrying inside our F50 helps and oppositions cannot afford to disrespect these two so they get quality opponents and this also frees up the bigs a bit.

We have plenty of players who chip in when our tails are up but it's when the pressure is on that we get found out. My main criticism is that our big forwards need plenty of work.

Jolly, Wood and Fraser can all be handy on their day when rested in the F50 and it unsettles back lines but we shouldn't need to rely on that. It's a bonus when it works.

Anthony - not AFL standard...falls over all the time, spills beans (which would be OK if he ran onto the ball but usually he's already fallen over), poor decision making. I don't think I'd persevere. Needs a LOT of work. (suspect he's a bit psychologically fragile)

Dawes - a bit green but plenty of potential if he is mentored. He could make a gun forward. (should've snapped on his left last night)

Cloke - I'd given up on him earlier this year but I reckon he's been very good lately. He might finally have realised what this game is about. If he could get some consistency in his kicking at goal he'd be fantastic.

Do Bucks and MM work together on strategies for forward entries? It doesn't look like it! A combination of poor delivery and forward positioning has killed us in the last 2 weeks.

I'd have the forwards spending time every week learning how to lead, make space for team mates, kick straight, improvise, bust packs etc. These basics seem to be missing. Can you teach players to have a footy brain? What are McKenna, Taylor, Daicos et al up to these days? Relay enough knowledge to the current forwards and it's bound to have some dividends.

The bones of a good forward set up are there. It's just not firing.

I'd also emphasise how to deliver to the forwards so that they have a chance!

 

[danielnajdek]

In other words we need the Cloke/Dawes/Medhurst forward setup. But I've a feeling it's not as simple as that.

 

[TradeDraft]

In other words we need the Cloke/Dawes/Medhurst forward setup. But I've a feeling it's not as simple as that.

Hope it's that Simple but I agree there is more than that

 

[HFF]

Anthony - not AFL standard...falls over all the time, spills beans (which would be OK if he ran onto the ball but usually he's already fallen over), poor decision making. I don't think I'd persevere. Needs a LOT of work. (suspect he's a bit psychologically fragile)

Dawes - a bit green but plenty of potential if he is mentored. He could make a gun forward. (should've snapped on his left last night)

Why is everyone falling for this Robert Walls bullshit about Jack being on "borrowed time"?

Seriously, how many young key forwards are there out there that have kicked 80 career goals from 40 games including a 50 goal season?

If Jack is not worth "perservering" with, we may as well cut Dawes now because he won't get even close to 50 goals for this season.

 

[The Zone]

Why is everyone falling for this Robert Walls bullshit about Jack being on "borrowed time"?

Seriously, how many young key forwards are there out there that have kicked 80 career goals from 40 games including a 50 goal season?

If Jack is not worth "perservering" with, we may as well cut Dawes now because he won't get even close to 50 goals for this season.

The stats are flattering.

Goals against:

Cats 1
Hawks 3
Saints 5
Lions 2
Dogs 2

Never have so many delivered so much for so little.

 

[StillWaiting5689]

The stats are flattering.

Goals against:

Cats 1
Hawks 3
Saints 5
Lions 2
Dogs 2

Never have so many delivered so much for so little.

Dogs he plays against Lake every time, against Geelong he gets Scarlett. He hasn't even played 50 games and he gets the oppositions best defender every week, so I'm not going to criticise him for not performing against the best 2 defenders in the league. The 2 games he has played against the Hawks we have lost by 10 goals so its not like he had much chance to kick anything considering he sits in the square.
Saints are always tough to score against, good solid backline. Usually when we play them our midfield don't give the forwards the best service. He has kicked 3 against them before though in one of 3 games.
Brisbane I can't really explain, but his output against them is about the same as Clokes on average.

He has played less than 50 games and has been getting the number one defender each week since last year, and now he doesn't even get played in his best position and people wonder why his numbers may be down this year.

 

[StillWaiting5689]

3 key forwards doesn't work in the modern era, just look at Geelong and the move of Hawkins into the ruck, they had no defensive pressure in the forwardline with 3 keys. Luckily for us both Cloke and Dawes have enormous tanks, Davis and Dick are exceptional at defensive pressure and Medhurst and Didak are no slouches either and all are capable of multiple goals.

Pretty sure Hawkins spends most of his time up forward, just look at his numbers on the weekend. 6 HO and 4 goals, doesn't look like ruckmans numbers but a forward who pinch hits in the ruck. Mark Blake still does majority of the rucking.

 

[Ickirus]

Our forwards are only as good as the ball coming into them. I cringe every time we just bomb it in as it always goes to a 2 vs 1.

What I'd like to see in terms of forward structure.

HF: Didak Cloke Dawes
FF: Medhurst Anthony Dick


Dawes is simply not a FF, he is CHF. He does not possess any attributes of a FF besides being big. He is not quick enough off the mark to burn off his opponent within the 50 metre arc, and is terrible overhead, and relies on long leading to beat opponents, and mark on his chest. I'd prefer at the moment for Dawes to play as a third tall where he can get a smaller opponent that he can outmuscle, otherwise he is too easily beaten in the air. I'd also consider moving Dawes to pinch hit in the ruck, and only going in with Jolly as a pure ruckmen.

Anthony is a FF, he needs to be played there and needs to lead out of the square. The myth about his defensive pressure is the big load of tripe, he provides far more defensive pressure than either Cloke or Dawes. Cloke needs to play CHF, but needs to just stop bombing it every time he gets it up on the HFF/Wing.

Medhurst while a marking type as well, provides good defensive pressure and creativity. Dick should come into the team when ready for Caff/O'Bree and provide the crumbing option. When Davis comes back he in can move into the midfield/wing rotations. Didak is much better off a forward flank where he can use his footskills, rather then being a liability in the middle because of his pea heart.

All our talls are playing too high currently, and when we do get a turnover because of our zone, we have no one in the forward line to kick to. I'd much rather we leave 1 or 2 players, such as Anthony/Cloke, and a Didak/Medhurst in the forward 50 when we are employing the zone.

 

[mdc]

Our forwards are only as good as the ball coming into them. I cringe every time we just bomb it in as it always goes to a 2 vs 1.

What I'd like to see in terms of forward structure.

HF: Didak Cloke Dawes
FF: Medhurst Anthony Dick


Dawes is simply not a FF, he is CHF. He does not possess any attributes of a FF besides being big. He is not quick enough off the mark to burn off his opponent within the 50 metre arc, and is terrible overhead, and relies on long leading to beat opponents, and mark on his chest. I'd prefer at the moment for Dawes to play as a third tall where he can get a smaller opponent that he can outmuscle, otherwise he is too easily beaten in the air. I'd also consider moving Dawes to pinch hit in the ruck, and only going in with Jolly as a pure ruckmen.

Anthony is a FF, he needs to be played there and needs to lead out of the square. The myth about his defensive pressure is the big load of tripe, he provides far more defensive pressure than either Cloke or Dawes. Cloke needs to play CHF, but needs to just stop bombing it every time he gets it up on the HFF/Wing.

Medhurst while a marking type as well, provides good defensive pressure and creativity. Dick should come into the team when ready for Caff/O'Bree and provide the crumbing option. When Davis comes back he in can move into the midfield/wing rotations. Didak is much better off a forward flank where he can use his footskills, rather then being a liability in the middle because of his pea heart.

All our talls are playing too high currently, and when we do get a turnover because of our zone, we have no one in the forward line to kick to. I'd much rather we leave 1 or 2 players, such as Anthony/Cloke, and a Didak/Medhurst in the forward 50 when we are employing the zone.

I endorse this entire post.

I'd only add that if Medhurst is out, we need Thomas or Macaffer in the forward line to apply pressure, as Cloke and Dawes are both hopeless, and O'Bree can only tackle inside a 3 metre radius.

Personally, the way I'd work both Cloke and Dawes across the HF line is to have Cloke on the right wing (looking towards goal), and Dawes on the left wing. If the ball is being pushed up the right side, Cloke stays near the boundary, and Dawes leads centrally. On the left side, that's reversed. I don't see why it couldn't work.

 

[StillWaiting5689]

Our forwards are only as good as the ball coming into them. I cringe every time we just bomb it in as it always goes to a 2 vs 1.

What I'd like to see in terms of forward structure.

HF: Didak Cloke Dawes
FF: Medhurst Anthony Dick


Dawes is simply not a FF, he is CHF. He does not possess any attributes of a FF besides being big. He is not quick enough off the mark to burn off his opponent within the 50 metre arc, and is terrible overhead, and relies on long leading to beat opponents, and mark on his chest. I'd prefer at the moment for Dawes to play as a third tall where he can get a smaller opponent that he can outmuscle, otherwise he is too easily beaten in the air. I'd also consider moving Dawes to pinch hit in the ruck, and only going in with Jolly as a pure ruckmen.

Anthony is a FF, he needs to be played there and needs to lead out of the square. The myth about his defensive pressure is the big load of tripe, he provides far more defensive pressure than either Cloke or Dawes. Cloke needs to play CHF, but needs to just stop bombing it every time he gets it up on the HFF/Wing.

Medhurst while a marking type as well, provides good defensive pressure and creativity. Dick should come into the team when ready for Caff/O'Bree and provide the crumbing option. When Davis comes back he in can move into the midfield/wing rotations. Didak is much better off a forward flank where he can use his footskills, rather then being a liability in the middle because of his pea heart.

All our talls are playing too high currently, and when we do get a turnover because of our zone, we have no one in the forward line to kick to. I'd much rather we leave 1 or 2 players, such as Anthony/Cloke, and a Didak/Medhurst in the forward 50 when we are employing the zone.

This is pretty much exactly what I was getting at earlier in thread better said. The more I think about it the better this set up seems.

 

[Snag Breac]

I hope Nathan's reading this thread, and I'm doing a few decades of the rosary that the ball is delivered in such as way as to allow our forwards to mark next week. Bring back Medhurst!

 

[shawthing09]

Ickirus has summed it up really well.

On top of that I'd add that the Dawes / Cloke / Medhurst stats are heavily inflated by playing in the 2 most offensive games I have seen in a long time. Essendon and Carlton really lacked any kind of meaningful defensive structure or pressure in their games against us

Also whilst it's unlikely I think moving Ried to the fowardline again or at least trying it shouldn't be ruled out.

I think between Presti, Brown, Harry and Maxwell we have enough tall defenders. Whilst I don't love the idea of throwing Ried foward just as he has started to find his place in the backline I think he is potentially the most dangeous foward on our list.

He has the height, pace and marking ability. A long and generally accurate field kick and whilst people will mention his goal kicking, I think his field kicking has improved massively from neat to dangerous and there is no reason to think his goal kicking wouldn't of / can't improve and secondly I doubt his goal kicking could be worse then Cloke but I am confident his field kicking will be better.

 

[Bay Pie]

Our best structure is if we have a fit Josh Fraser to play as a 3rd target or linkman.

Dawes, Cloke-Talls

Leon (fit), Medders, Dick (when fit), Jolly/Fraser resting or midfielder rotating (pick any of Sidey/Beams/Daisy/Dids/Swan etc

It is so much better for team balance.Allows us 4 runners on the bench or 3 with resting Fraser or Jolly from time to time.

It's difficult when our 3 best crumbrs/small forwards are all out.

 

[Medders123]

We could have a forward line like this:

HF: Davis, Cloke, Didak
F: Medhurst, Anthony, Dick
INT: Dawes

But without a second ruck