The Law Freedom of Speech

Should Milo Yiannopoulos be denied entry to Australia?


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Royal Flush

Norm Smith Medallist
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I don't think they're a hate group. They're lobbyists, plain and simple, in pursuit of power and influence; they're not even true social reformers, because there is no backbone, no leadership, no real influence. They're unworthy successors of 'feminism', because it's less about ideals than it is power and shame.


Ad hominem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies) is very specifically attacking the character from which an argument originates instead of their argument/ideas. It's a fallacy because the character of the person stating something isn't relevant to what they're saying, not from a logical standpoint; a person can be blind, and have no conception of what colour is beyond descriptions they read from a description of a Van Gough painting (from one of his more psychedelic works) yet be absolutely correct when they say that the sky is blue; responding with, "How would you know, you're blind!" is ad hominem.

I'm not necessarily talking about your quote, nor am I saying that the ad hominem is yours, or at least yours alone. I'm talking about both sides here, how 'feminists' like Clementine Ford love to insult those that disagree with them in a wide variety of ways, and how both you and EasternTiger between you agreed that third wave feminists became that way because they're ugly and/or stupid. If either side were to actually bother to attack each other's arguments/ideas, then there would be opportunity for progress; instead, what we're left in is an ideological impasse, with both sides being too antagonistic and too pridefull to actually commit their ideas to the task of defeating their opponent, and to allow for the possibility of loss.
Ugly....
Came about as discussion around Milo making that statement. We elaborated on it.

I define ugly as a state of being , hatred, resentment, lack of emotional intelligence .
It manifests to the physical.

Yes they tend to be unattractive but I'd go further to say unattractive is not important. ugly for (lack of a better word and my limited vocabulary) enhances a person's physical traits to resemble ugliness.



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Gethelred

Norm Smith Medallist
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200 protesters blocking my path and shouting in my face, and you want me to justify why I'm 'allowing them' to restrict my freedom? They are not all languid, mangina students. Some of them are violent arseholes.

As I said, if I had to run this gauntlet to get into a game of footy I would not attend either. But of course that would never happen. You'd get Gil, Andrews and Ashton on the front page telling us what a disgrace it was and it needed to be clamped down on immediately.
I'm at a loss as to what you want. Do you want for the state to imprison those who step across the line? I'm all for that. Do you want the police to clamp down on non-peaceful protest? I'm for that too.

If what you're asking for is for the protests to be banned, I'm never going to be for that, ever. If what you're asking for is for protesters to be forced to pay for their protests, I'd be interested in theory right up until you couldn't protest without applying for a permit that came attached to a processing fee. If what you're asking for is the state paying for protection for obnoxious right wing speakers at their own cost, I'd be a little miffed, but from an ideological standpoint I'd be able to intellectualise it as being a component of protecting his/her right to freedom of speech and those who went along's freedom of association, expression etc.

If you want to attend these events, you need to be able to wear the consequences of attending them. If you object to being called names, whether at volume or quietly, whether from range or up close, that is your own issue; it is violence that I abhor. As long as they do not break the law, you are being thin-skinned by not attending these speeches, and you are allowing the protesters to restrict your freedom, thereby setting a price on your freedom. You need to find a way to come to terms with that, because I cannot help you there.
 

Gethelred

Norm Smith Medallist
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Ugly....
Came about as discussion around Milo making that statement. We elaborated on it.

I define ugly as a state of being , hatred, resentment, lack of emotional intelligence .
It manifests to the physical.

Yes they tend to be unattractive but I'd go further to say unattractive is not important. ugly for (lack of a better word and my limited vocabulary) enhances a person's physical traits to resemble ugliness.



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So their behaviour is ugly rather than their person?
 

Craze

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Not sure if this point has been made, but I'd argue that people expressing a negative view about Islam isn't alt right. It isn't alt anything. In fact it runs the risk of being seen as pro-Israel, which is hardly consistent with the views of a traditional right-wing bigot.

Just as the (entirely justified) criticism of the Catholic Church for covering-up sexual abuse of children, by the ABC and The Age, does not make those organisations alt left.

In fact I would love to know why/how Milo, who is in a relationship with a black man, can be considered alt right for expressing negative views about a religion (Islam) which is rightly criticised for denying women in Muslim countries fundamental human rights.

Why are Australian and American feminists so reluctant to criticise Islam? If you were wanting to improve the rights of women in Australia, wouldn't the starting point be to speak out against arranged marriage; against the wearing of burqas; and dare I say the ridiculously high domestic violence rates in Australia's indigenous communities?
 

Royal Flush

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So their behaviour is ugly rather than their person?
Yes.

There is also an element of truth to sayings Ike you are what you eat.
Same with you are what you think , feel , say act.

I'm going out on a limb here to say this, but it is a free speech thread.

I think unattractiveness can enhance your state of ugliness, if your experience with the world is negative one to begin with.

And the opposite spectrum to that, a person with unattractive features can become incredibly attractive based on their level of charisma.

I could have used better words, to say what I meant.


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Craze

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It limits the potential for racists to be publicly racist.

For what it's worth, I think 18c should be repealed, if only so that those who want to be publicly racist can get publicly humiliated when people don't accept their nonsense. You cannot disprove an unspoken concept, and you cannot argue with silence.
Well said. Give them enough rope ...
 

sorted

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I'm at a loss as to what you want. Do you want for the state to imprison those who step across the line? I'm all for that. Do you want the police to clamp down on non-peaceful protest? I'm for that too.

If what you're asking for is for the protests to be banned, I'm never going to be for that, ever. If what you're asking for is for protesters to be forced to pay for their protests, I'd be interested in theory right up until you couldn't protest without applying for a permit that came attached to a processing fee. If what you're asking for is the state paying for protection for obnoxious right wing speakers at their own cost, I'd be a little miffed, but from an ideological standpoint I'd be able to intellectualise it as being a component of protecting his/her right to freedom of speech and those who went along's freedom of association, expression etc.
What I'd like is to be able to attend speaking events of my choice, like I attend sporting events, without being intimidated from doing so. This isn't controversial. So if protesters attempt to block attendees from attending an event they should be issued with a banning notice that 'allows police to prohibit a person from a designated area for 24 hours where they suspect a person has committed an offence, or is acting in an offensive or drunken manner'. Acting Assistant Commissioner Andrew Crisp said banning notices ''allow police to remove troublemakers and drunks from an area, allowing people who are doing the right thing to enjoy themselves in a safe environment''.

Police also now have antisocial behaviour powers that allow for $234-on-the-spot fines for people who are drunk, drunk and disorderly, who fail to move on after being directed to by police and for disorderly conduct.

I don't want the state to pay for protection to listen to what you perceive as 'obnoxious right wing speakers'. I want the state to protect me to allow me to attend what I might find interesting.
 

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Gethelred

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What I'd like is to be able to attend speaking events of my choice, like I attend sporting events, without being intimidated from doing so. This isn't controversial. So if protesters attempt to block attendees from attending an event they should be issued with a banning notice that 'allows police to prohibit a person from a designated area for 24 hours where they suspect a person has committed an offence, or is acting in an offensive or drunken manner'. Acting Assistant Commissioner Andrew Crisp said banning notices ''allow police to remove troublemakers and drunks from an area, allowing people who are doing the right thing to enjoy themselves in a safe environment''.

Police also now have antisocial behaviour powers that allow for $234-on-the-spot fines for people who are drunk, drunk and disorderly, who fail to move on after being directed to by police and for disorderly conduct.

I don't want the state to pay for protection to listen to what you perceive as 'obnoxious right wing speakers'. I want the state to protect me to allow me to attend what I might find interesting.
... all of which could and would be used to silence political protest by politicians, given half the chance.

If someone breaks the law, charge them; until that point and that point alone, they are innocent. You cannot prohibit someone's freedom until they infringe upon another's freedom. Beyond certain and active evidence that proves someone will break the law, I'm completely against charging them with attempted crimes, too.

Put simply, I do not trust police and government with the powers you are seeking to provide for them, and I do not see their ideology as attractive. They would start to misuse them within a year of their being written into law; they are also being drawn from an ideology of fear. Making decisions whilst afraid is the shortest route to atrocity, and it is through fear that monsters are made; the powerful, in condemning the other to being a monster and treating them as such, and the weaker, by being beaten until they cannot bear it any longer.
 

Gethelred

Norm Smith Medallist
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I guess Anonymous doesn't exist either. You've painted yourself into a corner now, and you're coming across as very dishonest.

Do you think antifa australia should be labelled a terrorist group?
???

I legitimately do not know what you mean, or what you are saying. You seem to be invoking things that you are 100% certain of, that simply do not exist. Anonymous is a collection of people who can and have hacked numerous government and private entities for the purpose of bringing to light their misdeeds and potentially bringing them to some form of social justice; they lack a nation per say, instead associating with each other. Just as there is not an American Anonymous, there is not an Australian Anonymous; to say more than that, you would have to be intimately acquainted with their goings on, from within the organisation.

Antifa, though, has had a presence a numerous American protests, and has public representation there. They have had members go to prison, and they have people who call themselves members of 'Antifa'. That cannot be said in an Australian context, and that's your issue. You are conflating American and Australian contexts without any evidence to say why or even to make the case that they should be similar. You are relying either on no-one picking you up on it, or vague references to conspiracy theories being accepted as passable reasoning.

There is no Australian Antifa. Feel free to prove me wrong, if you can, without vague references to some bogeyman to frighten children off to bed.
 

EasternTiger

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???

I legitimately do not know what you mean, or what you are saying. You seem to be invoking things that you are 100% certain of, that simply do not exist. Anonymous is a collection of people who can and have hacked numerous government and private entities for the purpose of bringing to light their misdeeds and potentially bringing them to some form of social justice; they lack a nation per say, instead associating with each other. Just as there is not an American Anonymous, there is not an Australian Anonymous; to say more than that, you would have to be intimately acquainted with their goings on, from within the organisation.

Antifa, though, has had a presence a numerous American protests, and has public representation there. They have had members go to prison, and they have people who call themselves members of 'Antifa'. That cannot be said in an Australian context, and that's your issue. You are conflating American and Australian contexts without any evidence to say why or even to make the case that they should be similar. You are relying either on no-one picking you up on it, or vague references to conspiracy theories being accepted as passable reasoning.

There is no Australian Antifa. Feel free to prove me wrong, if you can, without vague references to some bogeyman to frighten children off to bed.
Noted.

I don't mind you playing make believe, as long as you're consistent and concede there is no official Nazi presence or neo-nazi party in Australia.

We are all sick of these imaginary Nazis that are going to destroy our Australian way of life.
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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You wanted Manning executed. If the state pledged to begin executing biological racists, you would not find the policy as rosy.
Lol you are struggling. The law Manning was charged under had a penalty of execution. Instead, Manning got seven years. This all powerful state you think must be stopped doesn’t seem that powerful.

Manning is now jailed under contempt of court. You think this is politically incorrect and an example of the state abusing its power. If the state really wanted to use the full force of its power, legally, Manning would be dead.

You don’t know how good you and people like you have got it. This is why you think dumb things like your freedom of speech being abused when you are sacked for pointing out asbestos, when the state provides multiple avenues for you to remedy it.
 
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Gethelred

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Noted.

I don't mind you playing make believe, as long as you're consistent and concede there is no official Nazi presence or neo-nazi party in Australia.

We are all sick of these imaginary Nazis that are going to destroy our Australian way of life.
I've never said there are nazis in Australia, nor do I frequent the threads that say they do.

Nor, might I add, do I participate in whatever magical world you're living in. I hope the toadstools and Great A'Tuin are copacetic with you sharing their secrets.
 

Gethelred

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I agree with you on repealing it, but I think it's had no impact.

We have a neo-nazi senator dropping final solution references in parliament.
... which is the only place he can do it, due to parliamentary privilege.

If you have an issue with what Anning said, be loud about it, but above all else be logical. It is not enough to condemn his ideas as disgusting, his ignorance breathtaking, his views vile; it needs to be said, above and beyond all else, that he is incorrect, about the path forward, about the past as he sees it, and about his attitude to other races.

His ideas need to be disproven over and over (and as publicly as possible) above how they make people feel.
 

Goosecat

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I was wondering, given some of the more recent events surrounding various Australian media/legal systems and vilification/racial profiling/incitement etc.
Would the below seemingly fairly well educated/researched response receive some kind of legal sanction if disseminated on Australian free to air television.
I do find myself wondering at times, just how far has Australia's repression of information actually gone?
 

Snake_Baker

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I knew all you shitbag lefties really were free speech lovers deep down. Welcome to the new right wing (apparently). There's cake in the fridge.

This is the thing that shits me the most about them.

The "liberalism" becomes deathly silence when totalitarian bullshit facilitates the contemporary left's political views. It's the same silence that accompanies the idiotic elements in their own identity groups.

For **** sake people of the contemporary left:

1) Be ideologically consistent!
2) Clean your ****ing house! There's white ants EVERYWHERE!

I might just return IF you could do that!
 

CheapCharlie

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Let'd not pretend some supporters aren't looking for a fight. One poster on here admitted as much.

I still don't see any way of holding protests financially accountable.
Be good if some were held accountable. All those middle and upper middle class Antifa goons could go crying to the bank of mommy and daddy.
 
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