Coach Fremantle and Ross Lyon - where to now

Freomaniac

Brownlow Medallist
May 3, 2007
16,913
7,697
Parts Unknown
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Man City, Valencia, Lazio, Panthers
Whether viewed in isolation a particular trade is a good deal on paper is a secondary issue.

To do a good rebuild you need to a) draft well, both in terms of quality and quantity, and b) get games into quality kids as quickly as possible.

Bipolar is the perfect description for a coach who simultaneously talks up the need for rebuild and excuses dreadful results because of his inexperienced list, and also trades out draft picks and selects prime aged players who will take games away from draftees. It just makes no sense.
I guess you and I have different opinions when it comes to youth development.

the 2016 trade and draft period was pivotal for freo. After posting a 4 win and 18 loss record, you knew freo were way better than that. We had the trade and draft period to replenish and improve the playing squad. Hence why we got McCarthy, Kersten, Hamling and Brad Hill from other clubs. We got Logue, Cox, Darcy, Ryan in the draft. Duman, Nyhuis and Deluca in the Rookie draft.

I dont mid your thoughts on getting games into the good youth as possible. Again, as stated, KPPs take time to develop. Just because you get a gun 18 year old kid striaght from high school, doesnt mean his body will play 20 games in his draft year. Some players spend time in the WAFL or reserves to get their fitness up. Injuries happen too, cant do much about it. Once they are recovered, you slowly ease them back in the 22.

Sean darcy played 8 games in 2017. Missed half of 2018 with a knee injury, then played the last 7 dockers games of the season. The guy has only played 5 games this year due to injuries and being managed and rotated.

Once sandi retires this year, Darcy enters 2020 as the main ruckman. Brennan cox is a harry taylor type swingman as a CHF and CHB. 10 games in 2017, 16 in 2018 and he has played 8 games this year. Yeah he has practically played every 2nd game on average in the last 3 years due to form, injuries and rotations in the WAFL.

I wouldnt call Logue a KPP, but he was our 1st round pick in 2016. Played 13 games in 2017. Was injured for most of 2018, came back and played a handful of peel games last year. This year he was underdone due to his 2018 injuries. came back, played a month of WAFL and has played the last 2 dockers games.

Luke Ryan came in as a mature age 21 year old from Box Hill. Played 11 games in 2017, all 22 games in 2018. I think he has played every game this year.


Just a few examples of Freos kids from 2016 being developed and eased in our best 22.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Freomaniac

Brownlow Medallist
May 3, 2007
16,913
7,697
Parts Unknown
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Man City, Valencia, Lazio, Panthers
Would love to hear a jorno tell him that the majority of WC supporters want him to stay as long as possible.
I guess his wife's good mates with Pavs!
Ah Farang..... I like you quoted my post.

I love your little dig on my post on Lachie Neale. Again, happy to have traded neale as he wanted out. We made the best of a bad situation.

Felt sorry for neale last year. Averaging 30 disposals a game and cant find a quality tall forward to kick to last season.

Now go ask your self this question. Back in 2005-6 when eagles needed to trade for a KPF, would you of traded Judd or Cousins for Buddy Franklin?
 

master bate

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 13, 2006
13,223
10,620
Melbourne
AFL Club
Melbourne
In my opinion: This would be a very smart time for Freo to shake Ross' hand and say "thanks for everything, we're going with Blake Caracella/Rob Harvey/Paul Roos". I see sacking him as their biggest hope for retaining Stephen Hill, therefore encouraging Bradley to see out his contract, whilst potentially attracting Tim Kelly and/or Stephen Coniglio. In their favour they have cap space, draft picks and the go-home factor which should have them dreaming about all four, but with Ross' ability to scare the children there is serious possibility they'll have none next year.

A midfield of both Hills, Fyfe, Kelly and Coniglio (not to mention Langdon, Brayshaw and other players developing nicely), a backline that's already much more than solid, and a dynamic forward line of Hogan, Lobb, Matera, McCarthy, Cerra... with Mundy and Walters floating between mid/attack. It would be one of the best and youngest teams in the comp. They have great key position depth, lots of talented youngsters waiting for an opportunity. I think they would easily attract another quality coach. I thought Adelaide were tough on Sanderson, but ultimately they attracted Phil Walsh who instantly brought the group together to play much better footy.

How do Freo supporters feel on this? Is a new face and voice what this group needs, or is this a Hardwick/Buckley situation where next year things are expected to click for no apparent reason?
Why would Freo even want to retain Stephen Hill if he's got a fat contract and free agency compo coming from the Suns or otherwise? Brad Hill they can tell to suck it and play for a while if there isn't a big deal for him coming from a Vic club.

Why would Coniglio suddenly be interested in joining by an unproven coach?

Tim Kelly clearly has a Freo problem which might be a Ross problem but again, I'm not sure how an unproven coach works for him if the Eagles find the salary cap space and trade requirements. Even if you made Tim Kelly's best mate the coach wouldn't he either stay at the Cats or join the Eagles if he could?

If Freo could land a couple of absolute big gun recruits that would be great for them and would push them pretty close to top 4 but it's not that realistic. All the trading and mature age pick ups have accelerated Freo's rebuild but it might take until at least Darcy, Brayshaw and Cerra plus Logue and maybe even Sturt and another top 10 pick this year have played 50 games until you're looking at a list that can sign big name recruits and contend. You need a deep ball winning midfield and multiple paths to goal to win these days. Fyfe and Walters in 2 places at once isn't enough.
I think it's far more interesting to view the degree of leverage Ross seems to have over the Fremantle board.

For a guy who had won nothing, and who has been embroiled in a groping scandal, it's actually quite remarkable.

And when he says he will be coaching the club next year, I actually believe him.

I just don't quite know why the Fremantle hierarchy seems to put so much faith in him when he has all of nothing to show for it.
Ross pushed a Freo list that had good top end talent but ordinary death all the way to a Grand Final that they were a legitimate shot to win, and a St Kilda side to 2 grand finals where they easily could've won both of them. To discount that as nothing you'd also have to say if Dom Sheed missed a kick that he probably only kicks 1 in every 5 then then Adam Simpson would be a non winner too.

I was sceptical of Ross in charge of a rebuild but he seems to be going about it the right way, even with plenty of challenges. And I'm far from convinced Freo have the right footy department staff alongside him. Nor does Ross have total control over that so it's not like he has free reign.
 

_ogh

Debutant
Mar 31, 2013
53
20
AFL Club
Fremantle
Ross didn't get an extention to perform a rebuild. The club at the end of 2015 looked to enter a "sustained success" period while overlooking the holes in the squad and giving away picks for Bennell. After a diabolical 2016 the "rebuild" obsession started mainly to cover their arses.
 

benji21

Team Captain
Apr 2, 2016
512
248
AFL Club
Fremantle
I generally support WC when they are not playing Freo, just want to see WA football doing well, but with the posts in here god you make it hard.

As for Lyon, as long as I'm seeing improvement I'm happy for him to stay. Compare this year to the last few and we are well ahead.
Media always drum up a lot, if I remember right 2016 they were trying to get Hardwick fired. 2017 Buckley was the one copping it.
Last year media was saying Clarkson has rebuilt already why can't Lyon. That one aged well..
At the start of the year we were lucky to get 8 wins according to the media.

Ignore the media, look at the big picture and you will see he isn't doing a bad job.
Pretty hard to be consistent with the midfield we have. Improve that, have a little more luck with injuries and we are pushing for top 4.
 

Gavin Excell

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 22, 2007
26,508
27,262
Bentleigh
AFL Club
Geelong
Lyon has a history of giving up and throwing in the towel when it comes to Freo playing in Tasmania.

Will the master coach take a different tack this time?
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Hawk_francais

Club Legend
Sep 20, 2015
2,175
4,007
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Why would Freo even want to retain Stephen Hill if he's got a fat contract and free agency compo coming from the Suns or otherwise? Brad Hill they can tell to suck it and play for a while if there isn't a big deal for him coming from a Vic club.

Why would Coniglio suddenly be interested in joining by an unproven coach?

Tim Kelly clearly has a Freo problem which might be a Ross problem but again, I'm not sure how an unproven coach works for him if the Eagles find the salary cap space and trade requirements. Even if you made Tim Kelly's best mate the coach wouldn't he either stay at the Cats or join the Eagles if he could?

If Freo could land a couple of absolute big gun recruits that would be great for them and would push them pretty close to top 4 but it's not that realistic. All the trading and mature age pick ups have accelerated Freo's rebuild but it might take until at least Darcy, Brayshaw and Cerra plus Logue and maybe even Sturt and another top 10 pick this year have played 50 games until you're looking at a list that can sign big name recruits and contend. You need a deep ball winning midfield and multiple paths to goal to win these days. Fyfe and Walters in 2 places at once isn't enough.

Ross pushed a Freo list that had good top end talent but ordinary death all the way to a Grand Final that they were a legitimate shot to win, and a St Kilda side to 2 grand finals where they easily could've won both of them. To discount that as nothing you'd also have to say if Dom Sheed missed a kick that he probably only kicks 1 in every 5 then then Adam Simpson would be a non winner too.

I was sceptical of Ross in charge of a rebuild but he seems to be going about it the right way, even with plenty of challenges. And I'm far from convinced Freo have the right footy department staff alongside him. Nor does Ross have total control over that so it's not like he has free reign.
He wouldn't be, but players have all sorts of connections to coaches and assistants that they might be interested to work with again. Freo are playing low risk low reward on field and off. Something has to change.
 

The wily weagle

All Australian
Oct 16, 2014
828
1,538
AFL Club
West Coast
Ross pushed a Freo list that had good top end talent but ordinary death all the way to a Grand Final that they were a legitimate shot to win, and a St Kilda side to 2 grand finals where they easily could've won both of them. To discount that as nothing you'd also have to say if Dom Sheed missed a kick that he probably only kicks 1 in every 5 then then Adam Simpson would be a non winner too.
Expect Sheed did kick it. And we did win it. That's the difference.

Are you guys happy with "almost" winning a flag, or do you want to hold the premiership cup aloft? Is fremantle happy with close enough, or do you want the ultimate success?

The reality is, that even though Ross has got his team's into finals, he has won nothing. Almost winning a premiership isn't the same as actually winning it.
 

Forward Press

Premium Platinum
Jul 5, 2011
27,139
35,304
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Man Utd
Yeah not sure why Simmo is brought into this. Sure, Sheed's kick could have slid left and history could have shown Simmo as a two time premiership loser - but it didn't, and now he has 'premiership coach' next to his name.

Close enough isn't the same as actually winning one. 'Could've won' might give you the credits for a contract extension but is that the level Freo fans (or all fans, come to think of it) should be aiming at?
 

woosha24

Premium Platinum
Apr 5, 2015
2,462
3,972
AFL Club
West Coast
Yeah not sure why Simmo is brought into this.
I can think of a good reason to bring Simmo into it:

Simpson took us to a Grand Final in 2015 and had us playing finals in 2016 and 2017, and he was still under scrutiny by the club because he wasn't seen to be "successful enough".

That's the difference between West Coast and Fremantle. "Near enough" isn't considered good enough. West Coast coaches either win Premierships, or they get sacked. At Freo they apparently double-tap the "Rebuild" card and get gifted 5 years without much scrutiny.

Ross Lyon's a problem, but Freo have deeper issues at the fundamental club level. Where is the scrutiny coming from within? What is being done to address the now going on 4 years of mediocrity? You have gun players like Tim Kelly coming out and saying "I wont play at Freo", and that's apparently ok? You have a head coach accused of sexual harassment by an employee of the club, and that just gets swept under the rug? You get run down by f*cken CARLTON at home and then turn around the next week and present your backsides to your cross-town rival in one of the worst Derby smashings on record, and the narrative out of the club is "oh the boys are hurting" instead of "we have identified these issues and we will be addressing them"? FFS.
 

Randomizor

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 20, 2010
10,821
14,401
AFL Club
Fremantle
I can think of a good reason to bring Simmo into it:

Simpson took us to a Grand Final in 2015 and had us playing finals in 2016 and 2017, and he was still under scrutiny by the club because he wasn't seen to be "successful enough".

That's the difference between West Coast and Fremantle. "Near enough" isn't considered good enough. West Coast coaches either win Premierships, or they get sacked. At Freo they apparently double-tap the "Rebuild" card and get gifted 5 years without much scrutiny.

Ross Lyon's a problem, but Freo have deeper issues at the fundamental club level. Where is the scrutiny coming from within? What is being done to address the now going on 4 years of mediocrity? You have gun players like Tim Kelly coming out and saying "I wont play at Freo", and that's apparently ok? You have a head coach accused of sexual harassment by an employee of the club, and that just gets swept under the rug? You get run down by f*cken CARLTON at home and then turn around the next week and present your backsides to your cross-town rival in one of the worst Derby smashings on record, and the narrative out of the club is "oh the boys are hurting" instead of "we have identified these issues and we will be addressing them"? FFS.
I completely agree. Our board right now is full of fans making every excuse they can think of. Reframing their expectations to convince themselves we’ve improved. It’s getting tiresome for this particular Freo supporter.
 

Freomaniac

Brownlow Medallist
May 3, 2007
16,913
7,697
Parts Unknown
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Man City, Valencia, Lazio, Panthers
Logue is a bust

Thought that on the day he was drafted
Well considering what happened.....

Freo traded pick 3 in 2016 for Cam McCarthy, Pick 8 (Griffen Logue), Pick 32 (Sean Darcy) and pick 72 (luke Ryan). So it want a bad deal, Regardless if Logue was a dud or not.

But again it depends on what the team does with the picks and certain situations.

I will get laughed on here. I would consider trading picks 4 and 40 which is a 1st and 3rd rounder for another teams 10, 28 and 26, that teams 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Saying that, your mob did a similar trade in 2013. West coast traded pick 6 and 44 for collingwoods 11, 31 and 49. Pick 11 was Dom Sheed, 31 was malcolm Karpany and pick 49 was dylan main
 

kane249

New cup, who dis?
Oct 27, 2006
40,606
38,427
Behind enemy Lines
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Sth Freo, Liverpool, Chicago Bulls
Saying that, your mob did a similar trade in 2013. West coast traded pick 6 and 44 for collingwoods 11, 31 and 49. Pick 11 was Dom Sheed, 31 was malcolm Karpany and pick 49 was dylan main
Eagles did that deal with a few things in mind:
-They wanted Sheed, and figured he would be there at 11 so didn't have a problem trading down
-Brisbane were demanding our existing pick 28 for Yeo, so we wanted pick 31 to get back into the second round.

On the whole Main and Karpany didn't pan out, but getting Sheed and Yeo have definitely made it worth it given how it paid off.
 

master bate

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 13, 2006
13,223
10,620
Melbourne
AFL Club
Melbourne
He wouldn't be, but players have all sorts of connections to coaches and assistants that they might be interested to work with again. Freo are playing low risk low reward on field and off. Something has to change.
Freo are pretty much on the same rebuilding timeline as the Hawks. Both probably peaked in 2013, hung around as contenders until 2015 and have really been rebuilding since. The Hawks have gone about it in a far different way but as both teams sit now they're in a similar spot on the ladder both with issues with the game plan and issues on the list. Freo have kicked good scores against a number of the better sides, they've also had some shockers against good and bad sides. Hawthorn the same. Obviously Clarko gets a lot of benefit of the doubt due to his success but no one is suggesting Hawthorn make a risky move in turfing a coach who's had success just to shake things up.
 

VicBased

Debutant
May 3, 2019
130
132
AFL Club
West Coast
I generally support WC when they are not playing Freo, just want to see WA football doing well, but with the posts in here god you make it hard.
Being a WC supporter in Vic i also support Freo when they play, except when playing us of course. And same reason applies, i want to see West Aussie footy doing well. Wish it did not have to be a S#*tfight all the time. I think though that they need a new coach and think Simmo would do wonders with them.
 
Top Bottom