Fremantle in Disarray

[Clay Davis]

Taking 6 picks in a shallow draft still suggests a clean out, for mine. IMO, a club like West Coast looks like deciding it's done with the rebuild and is only topping up this year to somewhere in the mid 20s. We're going another two-three rounds deeper.

 

[Lach72]

With what I've said, Thornton, Grover, Hayden, Headland and O'Brien would still be available to cut next year. Players like Hinkley and Bucovaz could also be looked at depending how they go next season. The year after, which will lso be compromised, we'd be able to make the call on young guys taken this year along with the likes of Tarrant and McPharlin.

I have Murphy, Headland, Solomon, Dodd, Thornton, Obrien, Grover and possibly Hinkley.
We would be looking to upgrade De Boer and Pearce.
Leaving 6 picks plus 2-4 rookies.
That's another 10 players, whcih would make it, what 30 or so in 3 years? Is that not a rebuild?

 

[Moo]

I have Murphy, Headland, Solomon, Dodd, Thornton, Obrien, Grover and possibly Hinkley.
We would be looking to upgrade De Boer and Pearce.
Leaving 6 picks plus 2-4 rookies.
That's another 10 players, whcih would make it, what 30 or so in 3 years? Is that not a rebuild?

No beacuse we took McPhee

 

[Slattery_20]

no beacuse we took mcphee

1 player a year???!?!???

 

[prattsta]

I have Murphy, Headland, Solomon, Dodd, Thornton, Obrien, Grover and possibly Hinkley.
We would be looking to upgrade De Boer and Pearce.
Leaving 6 picks plus 2-4 rookies.
That's another 10 players, whcih would make it, what 30 or so in 3 years?

Firstly, I should of had Solomon on my list, not Headland, as I would've cut DJ this season. Next year if all goes to plan I'd be upgrading a combination of Sibosado, Shepheard and VB or de-listing them.

I'd be cutting 6 as a worst case in 2010, you're looking at possibly 10 is that right? I just don't get why you'd drag it out longer than you need to. I realise next year is supposed to be 'deeper' or at least back to normal, but is that any better than this year considering most of the top end talent won't be available?

Also, if Hayden doesn't retire after this season I'd be very surprised.

Is that not a rebuild?

Of course it's a rebuild, I just think Harvey has taken a middle of the road approach in 2 of the 3 trade/draft periods that he's been in charge. The bulk of the rebuild could more or less be over this season. WC and Melbourne are also rebuilding how many draft picks will they be taking this season? What about next year? The longer we drag it out the worse it gets; we'll have more rubbish seasons like 2009, not less.

No beacuse we took McPhee

I'm all for taking McPhee, where did I say I wasn't?

My issue is, McPhee can play the same role as Dodd, Grover, Headland, Solomon and Thornton. They are all senior players, they all provide the same thing and they are ALL still on our list. That's ordinary list management. Every single one of those players will be in our 22 next season, you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. How does that help us rebuild?

 

[Clay Davis]

McPhee's younger than Thornton.

How sad is that?

 

[sabre_ac]

McPhee's younger than Thornton.

How sad is that?

Thornton is afraid of kicking and useless overhead..The one thing he has going for him is pace and a willingness to break the lines.

I don't really consider the two a fair comparison and surely the likes of Murphy would loose his spot long before Thornton did.

Considering the list turn over (Drum/Peake), I think we will find that McPhee and Thornton both line up in the same team.

 

[Moo]

My issue is, McPhee can play the same role as Dodd, Grover, Headland, Solomon and Thornton. They are all senior players, they all provide the same thing and they are ALL still on our list. That's ordinary list management. Every single one of those players will be in our 22 next season, you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. How does that help us rebuild?

Ordinary list management but not by Harvey - by his predeccessor.

You can't cut 30 players in 2 years and by this you can't drop Dodd, Grover, Headland, Solomon, Campbell, Dodd, Thornton, Murphy, Gilmore, Browne etc in 2 seasons or you just end up recruiting at pick 100 and take the next Gilmore, Head, Browne.

You cut equivalent to the talent to replace them - otherwise we are just going down the Stribling, Moursih, Collard road.

 

[prattsta]

Ordinary list management but not by Harvey - by his predeccessor.

Harvey has been in charge of 3 trade periods now, in a few days he'll have had the reigns for 3 drafts as well. At what point does it become his responsibility?

You can't cut 30 players in 2 years and by this you can't drop Dodd, Grover, Headland, Solomon, Campbell, Dodd, Thornton, Murphy, Gilmore, Browne etc in 2 seasons or you just end up recruiting at pick 100 and take the next Gilmore, Head, Browne.

Pick 100? Don't be silly, I've gone to pick #68 this year. I'd still be picking up McPhee in the PSD. We'd only be taking 4 extra players this year, 2 of them would be rookies, 1 would be a Skeletor. I'd also be taking less players next year, than what we're going to need to.

What will pick #68 be in real terms anyway? No doubt several other teams will no longer be making selections.

You cut equivalent to the talent to replace them - otherwise we are just going down the Stribling, Moursih, Collard road.

That's why it's so easy for us to cut so many players. They are all void of talent.

 

[Lach72]

Harvey has been in charge of 3 trade periods now, in a few days he'll have had the reigns for 3 drafts as well. At what point does it become his responsibility?

About now is reasonable... If we win 8/9 games that is a good step in the right direction

 

[DizzyHB]

Seriously just no point taking more than 6 picks in the ND unless you want to be delisting them in 2 years anyway.

6 picks in the ND
2 picks in the RD
= 8 new players not including McPhee
+ the 14 from last year and we've got 22 young players over two years not even including Palmer, Hinkley, Mayne.

007 is doing just fine from my POV.

 

[dominguez]

Considering the list turn over (Drum/Peake), I think we will find that McPhee and Thornton both line up in the same team.

I'll be very disappointed if Thornton plays round one, I have 29 players on the list ahead of Scottie.

 

[DizzyHB]

Yeah not really sure where Scotty would fit in anymore.

FB: Hayden McPhee Grover
HB: Duffield Tarrant Broughton

HF: Mayne Pavlich Headland
FF: Ballantyne McPharlin Johnson

Depth at best.

 

[dominguez]

If we win 8/9 games that is a good step in the right direction

Will you give a 9 win season the Rick Hart "Big tick"?

I'd say 9 wins is par, any less will be disappointing and more than 10 will be a good season.

Look at Essendon's best 22, it's the definition of mediocre and they made the 8 this year.

 

[Lach72]

Yeah not really sure where Scotty would fit in anymore.

FB: Hayden McPhee Grover
HB: Duffield Tarrant Broughton

HF: Mayne Pavlich Headland
FF: Ballantyne McPharlin Johnson

Depth at best.

Swap Flinchy and McPharlin

 

[prattsta]

About now is reasonable... If we win 8/9 games that is a good step in the right direction

If we're rebuilding W/L ratio shouldn't matter. If the club is measuring improvement based on wins then they're doing it wrong. Theoretically we could lose every game and have a successful year.

I'll be very disappointed if Thornton plays round one, I have 29 players on the list ahead of Scottie.

I got the impression last season that Thornton was purely a depth player. Hopefully that doesn't change.

 

[Lach72]

Will you give a 9 win season the Rick Hart "Big tick"?

I'd say 9 wins is par, any less will be disappointing and more than 10 will be a good season.

Look at Essendon's best 22, it's the definition of mediocre and they made the 8 this year.

And we belted them by what, 10 goals? Consistency is the issue for us. 8 or 9 wins with more close games is a step in the right direction and would get him another 2 years...If we have a dream run 10 -12 wins could happen...

 

[Lach72]

If we're rebuilding W/L ratio shouldn't matter. If the club is measuring improvement based on wins then they're doing it wrong. Theoretically we could lose every game and have a successful year.

Oh well...Damian Drum will be pleased.

 

[dominguez]

If we're rebuilding W/L ratio shouldn't matter. If the club is measuring improvement based on wins then they're doing it wrong. Theoretically we could lose every game and have a successful year.

That would be correct if we had turned over the whole list since Connolly left, but there will be plenty of experience in the round one side. Infact our team for the opening week will probably be older than many.

 

[prattsta]

Oh well...Damian Drum will be pleased.

Depends on how you are measuring the rebuild. If we won 8/9 wins on the back of a young improving side I'd be happy. More than likely though, it'll be more games to Headland, Hayden, Crowley and Johnson along with the addition of McPhee that makes the biggest contribution to our W/L record.

That would be correct if we had turned over the whole list since Connolly left, but there will be plenty of experience in the round one side. Infact our team for the opening week will probably be older than many.

There will be heaps of experience in our round 1 side, and in our squad. There shouldn't be as much as there is though, which is the problem.

 

[Moo]

Harvey has been in charge of 3 trade periods now, in a few days he'll have had the reigns for 3 drafts as well. At what point does it become his responsibility?.

With every year he gets more responsibility, however whilst the bulk of his delistings constitute players brought in by CC and they are being replaced by guys drafted by Harvey/Bond - totally responsibility is yet to be handed over.

Certainly now on a list mgmt side of thing Harvey is well over half way.

I still say harvey has done very little wrong in terms of trading and drafting - we all would have opinions on what could be done differently hbowever the core decisions are pretty good.

Pick 100? Don't be silly, I've gone to pick #68 this year. I'd still be picking up McPhee in the PSD. We'd only be taking 4 extra players this year, 2 of them would be rookies, 1 would be a Skeletor. I'd also be taking less players next year, than what we're going to need to..

At what overall pick do you think your rookie picks are going to be? Combine that with the reduced pool of talent ....100 is being kind.

What will pick #68 be in real terms anyway? No doubt several other teams will no longer be making selections..

There is a reason for that.

That's why it's so easy for us to cut so many players. They are all void of talent.

If you replace them with immature players void of talent - how is that moving
us forward?

Our cuts are around the right mark ...you can't clean out 30 players in less than 4 drafts and not just re-circle on yourself to a list that needs a cleanout.

In 3 years time if McPhee is the worst player on our list - we will be playing finals.

 

[Lach72]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16327172&postcount=1
Interesting in the context of our discussion...

And if the draft is weak would be the next variable

 

[prattsta]

With every year he gets more responsibility, however whilst the bulk of his delistings constitute players brought in by CC and they are being replaced by guys drafted by Harvey/Bond - totally responsibility is yet to be handed over.

Certainly now on a list mgmt side of thing Harvey is well over half way.

I still say harvey has done very little wrong in terms of trading and drafting - we all would have opinions on what could be done differently hbowever the core decisions are pretty good.

Harvey has actually done very little. Period. Not making ridiculously stupid trades, like every single club, in every single sport around the world is hardly revolutionary. It's the easiest choice in the world. To do nothing.

The core decision is apparently that Fremantle needs to rebuild. Unfortunately, for every decision that is made towards that strategy, another is made in the opposite direction.

"I'm going the youth route, kinda...just ignore MJ, oh and McPhee, forget about Solomon as well...Drum ummm...he didn't really errr...ummm earn a call up like Thornton and Murphy did..."

Harvey is on the fence, he wants to be competitive, he wants to rebuild, he wants Fremantle to win a flag, he still wants to have a job when we do.

At what overall pick do you think your rookie picks are going to be? Combine that with the reduced pool of talent ....100 is being kind.

They're rookies who cares what pick they are. We essentially have a 50% chance of getting the rookies we want as we only have to compete with WC. Most clubs don't rookie kids from interstate. The cost versus benefit just isn't worth it.

Either way I'd rather be delisting and paying our rookie contracts than doing it to guys on the main list.

There is a reason for that.

It's a shit draft.

That's why the smart teams traded into the earlier rounds e.g. Port, Melbourne and West Coast.

The good teams are pretty much sitting out of this draft all together.

Of teams who may be picking after we're done, Richmond is Richmond and Brisbane topped up there list with senior players in the trade period.

Again, we're taking a middle of the road approach. We didn't trade, we aren't sitting it out, we did nothing.

If you replace them with immature players void of talent - how is that moving us forward?

I'm not suggesting we replace them with players void of talent, the players I want to cut are the ones without talent. Well, not 'leading us to our first flag' kind of talent anyway. Average players who won't be around in 1-2 seasons time.

How is having 6 senior guys on the list that perform the same role, helping us move forward?

How is selecting 5 of those guys week in, week out instead of a former #10 draft pick helping to move us forward?

Our cuts are around the right mark ...you can't clean out 30 players in less than 4 drafts and not just re-circle on yourself to a list that needs a cleanout.

Yes you can. We have the talent on our rookie list capable of replacing the likes of Headland, BOB and Murphy. Dodd would be replaced by McPhee. Use a rookie pick to re-draft Luke Pratt and we're left with 3 rookie spots to fill (currently 2) and 1 extra main list spot to fill. It's hardly drastic.

In 3 years time if McPhee is the worst player on our list - we will be playing finals.

We need to be playing finals in 3 years. Tarrant, McPharlin and Pavlich may be gone and this cycle could very well start again.

 

[dominguez]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16327172&postcount=1
Interesting in the context of our discussion...

And if the draft is weak would be the next variable


1-10: 16.8%
11-20: 13.1%
21-30: 9.8%
31-40: 10.7%
41-50: 9.3%
51-60: 7.8%
71+: 4.0%

Sorry, I don't get it. What are those percentages indicating, that 16.8% of draftees play between 1 and ten games???

 

[4n20]

Sorry, I don't get it. What are those percentages indicating, that 16.8% of draftees play between 1 and ten games???

picks 1 - 10 have played 16.8% of total games (of all players) played between 1999-2008

and so on.