Opinion Fremantle's terrible development of youth.

[dockshark]

We have all sorts of quantitative measures when it comes to physical fitness:
- skinfolds
- running time trials

I'm sure the club knows what, say, the bench press PB is for every players.

If your are behind expectations physically you get put on a remedial program to sort that out. In the past "fat" players like Walters and Sylvia were given strong feedback about their physical preparation.

Hmm ... do we do the same for ball skills? The answer is obviously no.

I would like to see a coach bring in some quantitative measures for ball skills.

Alongside the 2km time trial first day of preseason, I'd like to see some kind of goal kicking and field kicking test.

Don't pass the test? You are in the kicking program until you do.

Ball skills should be just as much a priority as physical fitness.

I 100% agree. Game plan and structure aside, we were cut apart yesterday by a much more skilful side. Even Carlton looked more skilled by foot than us last week. This is actually my biggest frustration that year after year we don't seem to be competitive in terms of skills. When we do win we grunt the wins in the most part over the line through effort and defensive pressure.

It feels almost certain that Lyon will go now, am really hoping that his replacement places a higher value on skills...

 

[wild side]

Yeah skills should be a pre-requisite. I remember Duffield saying that when he watches West Coast train they practice skills, when he watches Freo they practice structures.
We saw last night which one gets the chocolates

 

[Scham]

Webb is in charge, Guerra, Hayden and Read.

This is according to our website but it still has Tom Morris on there so who knows how accurate it is.


I saw a lot of Roger at the Peel game yesterday, not much of the others.

 

[Dale147]

We have all sorts of quantitative measures when it comes to physical fitness:
- skinfolds
- running time trials

I'm sure the club knows what, say, the bench press PB is for every players.

If your are behind expectations physically you get put on a remedial program to sort that out. In the past "fat" players like Walters and Sylvia were given strong feedback about their physical preparation.

Hmm ... do we do the same for ball skills? The answer is obviously no.

I would like to see a coach bring in some quantitative measures for ball skills.

Alongside the 2km time trial first day of preseason, I'd like to see some kind of goal kicking and field kicking test.

Don't pass the test? You are in the kicking program until you do.

Ball skills should be just as much a priority as physical fitness.

Yes, just like they do in American football.

 

[Joao]

Yeah skills should be a pre-requisite. I remember Duffield saying that when he watches West Coast train they practice skills, when he watches Freo they practice structures.
We saw last night which one gets the chocolates

You get the luxury of training skills more when most of your players have played in your structures for 5+ years.

I suspect all mature sides have more time to train skills.

 

[Cameron_K]

Shepherd after the game on 6PR mentioned how they practice the fundamental skills over and over at training so when they play in conditions like that they come naturally. Who would have thought?

 

[FreoRicci]

McCarthy, Hogan & Bennell cost us plenty could easily have equated to Naughton, English & Kelly. Lobb, Wilson, B Hill are ticks Conca & Matera ???.
Colyer & Kersten are not best 22 and not even good depth players. My point is that recruiting recyled players very seldom works for us, I would much prefer to try our luck with home grown local talent like Kelly, Stack, Naughton, English, Rioli, Ryan, etc who were all available to us.

Agree. Just because they’re home grown talent doesn’t mean we have to bring them home.
Kersten particularly. Gifted him a spot back home, even though he was 3/4 in line in the forward line with Geelong. Failed at Freo in that time. Colyer isnt looking like he ll be anything more then C grade.
McCarthy has struggled.
Hogan has time and worth persisting. He’s a gun.
Missing out on drafting home grown talent is unavoidable but we’ve been doing it for a while now. Seeing them perform in the East sucks. Then having to pay overs for them to come back.

Exactly, you need to get 50 games into them first before you really know what you've got.

Not necessarily. You’d know who isn’t up to it early.
Crowden, Jones, Meek isn’t AFL standard.
Bewley is borderline. Schulz about the same.

 

[tonygeeks]

You get the luxury of training skills more when most of your players have played in your structures for 5+ years.

I suspect all mature sides have more time to train skills.

Would you say our mature 13-15 sides were particularly skilled or many players improved a lot during that time ?

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

You get the luxury of training skills more when most of your players have played in your structures for 5+ years.

I suspect all mature sides have more time to train skills.

It really frustrates me to see great team players like Ed Langdon & Giro and previously DeBoer, Sheridan, and Barlow run so well but butcher the ball.

I'm sure these guys are athletically talented, but the real reason they gut run so well in a game is because they work on it. They have/had a high work ethic and makes sure--both in training but also before preseason starts--that they are maximising their running potential.

They do this not to be a "rebel" but because they can see that part of their game is valued and prioritised by our program.

I reckon if they thought that foot skills were equally as valued, they would all work their arses off with their kicking the same way they worked their arses off to get fit and stay lean.

Perhaps their gut running would drop off a little but their kicking execution would most likely improve. Not Burgoyne good (skills don't magically get that much better for adults) but with better execution than they are/were known for.

The attributes and flaws of these hard working professionals are/were a direct result of what they perceive the club's footy values to be. Their skill execution reflects poorly on how their training has been prioritised.

 

[Jezzitizle]

Honestly don’t think our development is too bad at the moment, apart from training skills and composure, which is absolutely necessary.

The likes of Cerra and Crowden are clearly too young for AFL footy at the moment, they need more time to judge. Some players are ready made, not these blokes though

 

[Scham]

Shepherd after the game on 6PR mentioned how they practice the fundamental skills over and over at training so when they play in conditions like that they come naturally. Who would have thought?

The Peel players or Freo players?

 

[dockerfemme]

The Peel players or Freo players?

I think this references Brad Shepherd and what the Eagles do.

 

[BlueE]

We have all sorts of quantitative measures when it comes to physical fitness:
- skinfolds
- running time trials

I'm sure the club knows what, say, the bench press PB is for every players.

If your are behind expectations physically you get put on a remedial program to sort that out. In the past "fat" players like Walters and Sylvia were given strong feedback about their physical preparation.

Hmm ... do we do the same for ball skills? The answer is obviously no.

I would like to see a coach bring in some quantitative measures for ball skills.

Alongside the 2km time trial first day of preseason, I'd like to see some kind of goal kicking and field kicking test.

Don't pass the test? You are in the kicking program until you do.

Ball skills should be just as much a priority as physical fitness.

Good idea. Most already have baseline skill scores from pre draft testing, so it would be very interesting once a month to retest these skills (or make new skill tests up) as a guide . However you then need drills that will improve the skills and improve them under pressure they could expect in a game.

Although training are run very professionally with drills set out and cones placed and picked up and replaced so the next set of drills can run seamlessly there are almost no drills for goal kicking whether they are set shots or on the run. I've described one that is based on the Australian men's basketball training for set shots in some of my very early posts. What if WC are using this as well as other drills for shots in play and we're not?

 

[Scham]

I think this references Brad Shepherd and what the Eagles do.

Ahh, thanks. Thought it was Cam Shepherd saying it.

 

[Taylor]

Alex Pearce is AA quality key back. Lachie Neale is AA quality mid. Lachie Weller is playing good footy as is Blakely, but I'll avoid going through all our successful youth development to talk about how Brayshaw and Cerra aren't gun AFL players already..

 

[PapaJ]

If you want into be an AFL player, pull your finger out and play as hard as you can in whichever position/role you are given. Cerra doesn’t deserve to be in the team at the moment, let alone being gifted a midfield role when he hasn’t put serious effort in

I think Cerra has hit that point where his reliance on talent alone has reached its end. Talent and getting 'high praise' when you're a relatively big fish in a small pond is fine, but when you hit those 2-3+ years in an AFL system, it becomes about hard work and mental discipline and working on your craft. I get the sense that his tallent which got him this far is getting found out, it's time to build some substance on that good foundation.

In terms of how we develop players, I think we're fine, you can pick the duds if you want, but as others have said, there's pleanty of wins too. There's a pick 58 doing just fine for Bris today after developing at Freo.

 

[Joao]

Would you say our mature 13-15 sides were particularly skilled or many players improved a lot during that time ?

Not all the players were gifted but most knew their limits and stuck to them - which is all you can ask of any player. In terms of improvement, I genuinely don't remember.

It really frustrates me to see great team players like Ed Langdon & Giro and previously DeBoer, Sheridan, and Barlow run so well but butcher the ball.

I'm sure these guys are athletically talented, but the real reason they gut run so well in a game is because they work on it. They have/had a high work ethic and makes sure--both in training but also before preseason starts--that they are maximising their running potential.

They do this not to be a "rebel" but because they can see that part of their game is valued and prioritised by our program.

I reckon if they thought that foot skills were equally as valued, they would all work their arses off with their kicking the same way they worked their arses off to get fit and stay lean.

Perhaps their gut running would drop off a little but their kicking execution would most likely improve. Not Burgoyne good (skills don't magically get that much better for adults) but with better execution than they are/were known for.

The attributes and flaws of these hard working professionals are/were a direct result of what they perceive the club's footy values to be. Their skill execution reflects poorly on how their training has been prioritised.

I am not looking it up because I can't be ****ed, but the great Clarko himself said if you want good/great kicks in your team you need to draft them. You will not turn poor/average kicks into good ones in the AFL system (I am sure there are a handful of exceptions). You can't turn Ed into Hurn once he hits the AFL system, you need to have done it in his junior days.

Side note: you hear Paul Roos bang on about it all the time and he is clearly frustrated with the lack of contact hours coaches actually get with the players. For full time pros, they don't seem to spend that long on the track each week. Probably has a fair bit to do with it I reckon.

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

Not all the players were gifted but most knew their limits and stuck to them - which is all you can ask of any player. In terms of improvement, I genuinely don't remember.


I am not looking it up because I can't be ****ed, but the great Clarko himself said if you want good/great kicks in your team you need to draft them. You will not turn poor/average kicks into good ones in the AFL system (I am sure there are a handful of exceptions). You can't turn Ed into Hurn once he hits the AFL system, you need to have done it in his junior days.

Side note: you hear Paul Roos bang on about it all the time and he is clearly frustrated with the lack of contact hours coaches actually get with the players. For full time pros, they don't seem to spend that long on the track each week. Probably has a fair bit to do with it I reckon.

Yep totally agree with about the level of motor skill improvement that is possible for professional adult athletes. DeBoer and Langdon are never going to kick as well as Burgoyne or Hurn. But st*ff me how many times have we seen, say, Ed miss a target from 20m? That is definitely improvable.

Not prioritizing skill execution means:

1) The players have to work harder since their play will be less efficient; for instance, our score from turnover will be less since we can't maintain a possession chain from the turnover to the eventual score
2) We gift scoring opportunities to our opponents
3) We reduce our tactical flexibility because our players can't, for instance, reliably use short precision kicks to get through a defensive zone. Or use long kicks to go over or around a zone.
4) Related to #3, we are much easier to play against. The oppo know if they can pause our forward movement at half-back the lack of kicking skill for many of our players means that the only realistic option is the down the line kick, which they can easily defend. As a result Key Defenders and Half-Backers keep doing well against us.
5) We exhaust ourselves because the ball spends less time in our possession and more time in either their possession or dispute.

Not maximizing whatever skill we have is a severely limiting strategy.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

I am not looking it up because I can't be ****ed, but the great Clarko himself said if you want good/great kicks in your team you need to draft them. You will not turn poor/average kicks into good ones in the AFL system (I am sure there are a handful of exceptions). You can't turn Ed into Hurn once he hits the AFL system, you need to have done it in his junior days.

Side note: you hear Paul Roos bang on about it all the time and he is clearly frustrated with the lack of contact hours coaches actually get with the players. For full time pros, they don't seem to spend that long on the track each week. Probably has a fair bit to do with it I reckon.

Agree with this. You're not turning a bad kick into a good one. Mechanically it is ******* difficult to change. You can't teach skills. Andy Brayshaw is never going to be able to hit kicks Walters can.

You can practice them though. I trust Duffield when he says he watches WC train and they practice skills an we don't. I think that could be a factor in why our consistency of execution is so bad. Andy was rated as being a decent kick in junior. Not elite, decent. Yet for us he has been wildly inconsistent. As a singular example, maybe this is an area we are failing in and could be why the skills are there one second gone the next and visa verca.

 

[Joao]

Yep totally agree with about the level of motor skill improvement that is possible for professional adult athletes. DeBoer and Langdon are never going to kick as well as Burgoyne or Hurn. But st*ff me how many times have we seen, say, Ed miss a target from 20m? That is definitely improvable.

Not prioritizing skill execution means:

1) The players have to work harder since their play will be less efficient; for instance, our score from turnover will be less since we can't maintain a possession chain from the turnover to the eventual score
2) We gift scoring opportunities to our opponents
3) We reduce our tactical flexibility because our players can't, for instance, reliably use short precision kicks to get through a defensive zone. Or use long kicks to go over or around a zone.
4) Related to #3, we are much easier to play against. The oppo know if they can pause our forward movement at half-back the lack of kicking skill for many of our players means that the only realistic option is the down the line kick, which they can easily defend. As a result Key Defenders and Half-Backers keep doing well against us.
5) We exhaust ourselves because the ball spends less time in our possession and more time in either their possession or dispute.

Not maximizing whatever skill we have is a severely limiting strategy.

Ed misses targets because his technique is gash. That's why it is so hard to improve because you basically have to unteach them and start from scratch. There simply isn't enough time to do that.

The rest is conjecture, you don't know what would happen if we spent more time doing skills and less doing whatever it is we do. If you truly believe it, do serious research in the area and demonstrate it. Then someone that matters might actually listen to you. Otherwise it just sounds like a massive case of this to me:

Agree with this. You're not turning a bad kick into a good one. Mechanically it is ******* difficult to change. You can't teach skills. Andy Brayshaw is never going to be able to hit kicks Walters can.

You can practice them though. I trust Duffield when he says he watches WC train and they practice skills an we don't. I think that could be a factor in why our consistency of execution is so bad. Andy was rated as being a decent kick in junior. Not elite, decent. Yet for us he has been wildly inconsistent. As a singular example, maybe this is an area we are failing in and could be why the skills are there one second gone the next and visa verca.

Agree practice is important. I still think mature teams have the luxury of training skills more because they don't have to spend as much time on the basics that young teams do, because 95% of the list already knows that stuff.

On Andy, he was a tidy/good kick as a junior (no penetration though) and has been much worse than that so far. That said, he has noticeably improved in the latter part of this season so I am not too worried. Also, he is a model pro so he will probably bust his chops in the off seasons working on that sort of stuff.

 

[eastfreo75]

Just like you I would love to see us have more faith in local talent too. But I think it is more if a drafting problem than a trading problem

McCarthy cost us the equivalent of something like #81 when you factor in the package of picks we got in the deal. He didn't cost us English because we picked Logue ahead of English -- and if you believe Brad Lloyd we would have still picked Logue at #3 anyhow.

Hogan cost us #5 and a 2nd. That is a lot but I don't think anyone would argue that we paid massive overs -- that us simply the price for a good young forward like Hogan. (Who was a #2 who actually had runs on the board)

Bennell was a reasonable trade of a very late first and a downgrade of a 2nd(?). The Bennell trade was very similiar to what the Hawks gave up for Jono Rourke who was a #2 from GWS. (Both have been busts.)

Guys like Colyer and Kersten were questionable trades. Not because we paid a lot (we didn't) but because it's really hard to see how they improved our list in the 1st place.

For me the expensive trade last year was Lobb. We gave up a 1st and downgraded another 1st. That could have got us both Jordy Clark and Port's Duursma. Sure Lobb has been good in the short term, but in the long term that was a lot to give up.

We didn't get Naughton because we picked Cerra.
We didn't get English because of Logue.

We could have got Kelly, Stack, Ryan, and both the McGoverns for absolute peanuts : rookie picks would have picked them all up because they were all overlooked in main drafts.

Especially since it seems that we were twice keen on Kelly and both times didn't pick him up with a late pick/rookie pick.

We have made some clangers with locals at draft :
- Sheridan & Crozier ahead of both B.Hill and Yeo
- Pitt ahead of Jack Darling
- Apeness ahead of Lobb

One of the few times we did back in a local kid with a 1st rounder we picked Josh Simpson ... ahead of Brodie Grundy (not a local, but a v.questionable choice)

To miss out on some of these picks, sure OK. Nobody expects perfection. But too miss all of the above? It beggars belief.

Long winded I know, but I suppose I'm saying that our drafting has been more questionable than our trading when it comes to local talent.

You making great picks.

Sturt was pick 17 and Duursma was pick 18.

Both Lobb and Apeness would have been a reach at the time.

 

[Cameron_K]

The Peel players or Freo players?

Brad Shepherd

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

You making great picks.

Sturt was pick 17 and Duursma was pick 18.

Both Lobb and Apeness would have been a reach at the time.

Ah fair enough on Duursma. We picked Sturt over him anyway. I think Lobb will be a really good player for us, but the opportunity cost was high -- I would have loved Jordy Clark in our team for the next ten years.

And Apeness is more unfortunate than anything. He suffered some collision injuries with us that couldn't, of course, be predicted at draft time. Without those injuries he had the talent and intent to be a good long term player for us.

I wouldn't expect anyone to make all the picks I was talking about. If I was a recruiter I certainly wouldn't have. But when you see them all lined up it is nevertheless true that there is a pattern of having faith in kids that developed elsewhere.

More important than some of the high-end picks are those missed rookie opportunities. Kelly, Stack, Ryan, both McGoverns would all be walk-up B22 for us; were all known to us; and all missed by us. Yes there were missed by every other team as well. But I didn't care about _their_ recruiters. I care about ours.

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

Ed misses targets because his technique is gash. That's why it is so hard to improve because you basically have to unteach them and start from scratch. There simply isn't enough time to do that.

The rest is conjecture, you don't know what would happen if we spent more time doing skills and less doing whatever it is we do. If you truly believe it, do serious research in the area and demonstrate it. Then someone that matters might actually listen to you. Otherwise it just sounds like a massive case of this to me:

View attachment 705358


Agree practice is important. I still think mature teams have the luxury of training skills more because they don't have to spend as much time on the basics that young teams do, because 95% of the list already knows that stuff.

On Andy, he was a tidy/good kick as a junior (no penetration though) and has been much worse than that so far. That said, he has noticeably improved in the latter part of this season so I am not too worried. Also, he is a model pro so he will probably bust his chops in the off seasons working on that sort of stuff.

Well I'm not a sports scientist and I don't have the knowledge to do a literature review on the topic. But then I don't have too ... this is big footy

But what I do know is that early in his career Cyril Rioli had a series of hamstring injuries. And the Hawks determined that these injuries were caused by his running technique. In other words: Rioli had a skill problem.

They let him recover from his latest hammy, and put him on a special program to work on his running technique (ie, a specialist program to maximise whatever running skill he had). Only after the end of the remedial program did he return to footy.

I'm sure it was something he had to work on for the rest of his career. I'm sure Rioli isn't as good a runner as, say, Sheridan or Masten. But the Hawks didn't just shrug their shoulders and say "we can't change his running skill, so we'll just have to put up with it"

 

[Cesoir]

Ed misses targets because his technique is gash. That's why it is so hard to improve because you basically have to unteach them and start from scratch. There simply isn't enough time to do that.

I am completely at a loss as to why we don't tell guys like Langdon, Hill, Tucker - all of our wingers and mids to take a shot when they are in range. For me Ed has just got a complete mental block when it comes to decision making inside 50, to the point where two weeks in a row he has changed his mind mid-kick and just dropped the ball.

Ed is a great runner, gets himself into fantastic positions then tries to pass off with a dinky little kick, often to someone in a worse position. Ed, mate, if you are running at goal and are at or near the 50, just take a few more steps, settle and HAVE A ******* SHOT!!!

What are we really risking? That we become inaccurate if we shoot from a less than perfect position?