From Elite to "Mediocre": A Dockers Third of the Season Report Card

slicedndiced

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#26
Credit where it's due, Hawthorn played the best footy played by anyone this year against us in that game.

They were clinical, precise and irresistable.

No team could have stayed with them in that first half.
 

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yoong

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#27
Credit where it's due, Hawthorn played the best footy played by anyone this year against us in that game.

They were clinical, precise and irresistable.

No team could have stayed with them in that first half.
Yeah, and before this week, Sydney's best game to date was against us, and so is norf's.

Teams are lifting their game when they play us, we have to find a way to lift our's as well somehow...
 

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#28
Good mate of mine is a Hawks supporter who observes that Hawthorn is vulnerable to Geelong and Sydney pressure.

Why not ours?

In Rd 3, Hawks ran riot through the corridor like a thundering herd of gazelles on the Kenyan savanna, as any Hawk with the footy in hand had one or two teammates running alongside to handball to, or someone ahead to kick to. Different sport analogy, but they looked like the '80s "Showtime" Lakers in the NBA wiping the floor with the talented, but flatfooted Celtics.

Granted, we were already without Barlow and Fyfe and Mayne, Ibbo and Son-Son all went down with injuries, but still.

Oh and I definitely see the merits of other posters who rate the home loss to North as a worse defeat than getting poleaxed by Hawthorn. I also was livid, considering we held the Roos last year to 29 points. But y'know Coach Lyon's mantra: "The past counts for nothing."

Still see Hawthorn loss as worse, as we had a chance to show the world we could hang with and beat those guys. Hope we get our hurt boys back for late-season matches against them and Port, are in ripping form and beat them so badly they'll answer "Freo!" when we ask 'em, "who's your daddy?!" :mad:
As a C's fan, I take offence to that :D ...though it's kind of true, and not bad analogy. The problem is that, our Denis Johnson, Parish, Ainge type players (i.e. not Bird c.f. Fyfe) are not all hitting their straps consistently, particularly offensively, as one would expect so the 'flat footedness' is being exposed where normally it isn't.

Back to AFL, our ability to cover the spread, particularly when the other team gets a sniff has been an issue all season. We're not organising ourselves well from stoppages - I'm not entirely sure what it is, whether it's just a pace thing, but I don't think it is. Similar personnel managed to defensively organise last year that such runs were rare. I just think we're not working the machine well enough for long enough.

In the game just gone, in the 4th quarter smashing, we constantly drove players to the contest to pressure the ball, but we tended to overcommit and, for whatever reason, a select few players didn't remain defensive side where they normally would - I'm not saying individuals, I'm saying as a collective I've seen us much better organised so that our pressure is manic for sure, but balanced so that if the ball does come out of congestion we're not totally exposed as we have been in pretty much all our games at some point bar the first couple.
 

pokerspiv

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#29
Good mate of mine is a Hawks supporter who observes that Hawthorn is vulnerable to Geelong and Sydney pressure.

Why not ours?

In Rd 3, Hawks ran riot through the corridor like a thundering herd of gazelles on the Kenyan savanna, as any Hawk with the footy in hand had one or two teammates running alongside to handball to, or someone ahead to kick to. Different sport analogy, but they looked like the '80s "Showtime" Lakers in the NBA wiping the floor with the talented, but flatfooted Celtics.

Granted, we were already without Barlow and Fyfe and Mayne, Ibbo and Son-Son all went down with injuries, but still.

Oh and I definitely see the merits of other posters who rate the home loss to North as a worse defeat than getting poleaxed by Hawthorn. I also was livid, considering we held the Roos last year to 29 points. But y'know Coach Lyon's mantra: "The past counts for nothing."

Still see Hawthorn loss as worse, as we had a chance to show the world we could hang with and beat those guys. Hope we get our hurt boys back for late-season matches against them and Port, are in ripping form and beat them so badly they'll answer "Freo!" when we ask 'em, "who's your daddy?!" :mad:
Our game style is too defensive to come back from a large deficit. Teams know that once they get a lead on us they are home. That's the key difference between us and Geelong/Sydney.
 

slicedndiced

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#30
Our game style is too defensive to come back from a large deficit. Teams know that once they get a lead on us they are home. That's the key difference between us and Geelong/Sydney.
Which, of course, is why we came back from the dead against Sydney, (admittedly for a draw), last year.

Seriously, could you be any more consistently wrong about everything if you tried?
 

yoong

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#31
Our style is not unlike the full coast press used in basketball. When implemented correctly, it is suppose to create quick turnover which makes scoring easier and faster.

Problem is if there is a hole (player didn't know where to run, too slow to cover...) it gets easy to break though and became an easy score for the opposition.
 

clogged

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#32
Good mate of mine is a Hawks supporter who observes that Hawthorn is vulnerable to Geelong and Sydney pressure.

Why not ours?
Basically it comes down to scoring ability. Hawthorn's defence one on one is probably still its weakest area, but Fremantle aren't capable of exploiting it, nor does the midfield do enough damage by itself.
 

GilG

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Thread starter #33
Our style is not unlike the full coast press used in basketball. When implemented correctly, it is suppose to create quick turnover which makes scoring easier and faster.

Problem is if there is a hole (player didn't know where to run, too slow to cover...) it gets easy to break though and became an easy score for the opposition.
Yup, lots of similarities between our defense and a basketball team's full court press -- though it's used more in college basketball here. What I've noticed in ours is that sending too many players on the ground to one opponent will leave one totally free. Seems that teams that chip the footy around, avoiding kicking to too many contests and slowly working their way into their forward 50 works against us. In the pre-game commentary on the preliminary final broadcast against Sydney, Cameron Ling, using video examples from the winning qualifying final at Geelong, really broke down how our pressure is most effective.
 

Dirty_banchez

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#34
We are being beaten in a number of areas:

1. Skills. We aren't hitting targets with handballs, and kicks and it is just killing us. The team works hard to defend and cause a turnover, only for a crap kick to undo the good work. We will always be murdered by turnovers as our zones haven't been set up; this is especially prevalent with teams who have speedy forwards/flankers.

2. Crowley is not beating his opponents. At the minimum Crowley should be drawing even with the man he is tagging, but right now they are getting off the chain. Now, this might not be Crowley's fault, he does rely on his team mates for help and support, so is he getting the support he needs?

3. The switch is killing us. Teams are just continually switching to create holes in the zone, then with some pinpoint kicking they are finding their men.

4. We are just being out pressured. There is no intensity. Players like Suban, De Boer etc... Play the odd 'good' game every few weeks, but that is simply not good enough. We have too many players who are happy to let players like Barlow, Fyfe, Mundy, Pav etc... carry them.

5. This will be the third time I have mentioned this, but our entry into the forward line is diabolical. This goes back to point #1, but even worse now is we are missing key cogs to the forward line: Walters and now Ballantyne. Missing players is no excuse though, it isn't for Hawthorn, and it shouldn't be for us either.

We have problems, but they are easily fixable. Have other teams gone past us? Not really, we just aren't playing at our potential.
 

PapaJ

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#35
Basically it comes down to scoring ability. Hawthorn's defence one on one is probably still its weakest area, but Fremantle aren't capable of exploiting it, nor does the midfield do enough damage by itself.
Yeah, this. Especially without Lake, but even with him.

Hawks will leak goals if you can keep the ball out of their hands for a reasonable time and if you have an ability to run goals on in a hurry. Geelong, have shown that, so have Essendon this year. Attacking, score orientated midfields like Richmonds have done it too.
 

clogged

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#36
Yeah, this. Especially without Lake, but even with him.

Hawks will leak goals if you can keep the ball out of their hands for a reasonable time and if you have an ability to run goals on in a hurry. Geelong, have shown that, so have Essendon this year. Attacking, score orientated midfields like Richmonds have done it too.
I think it's no coincidence that despite being around the top end for five years their best year comes with Lake in the side.

I have to say that I thought their 22-3 season last year was one of the least dominant seasons I can remember for a side that had lost so few games. They have a lot of flaws in their best 22, but they have the best coach in the game.
 

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PapaJ

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#37
I think it's no coincidence that despite being around the top end for five years their best year comes with Lake in the side.

I have to say that I thought their 22-3 season last year was one of the least dominant seasons I can remember for a side that had lost so few games. They have a lot of flaws in their best 22, but they have the best coach in the game.
Up until very recently, I think Clarkson has been underrated by many, and probably still is. I remember having a back-and-forth with a Hawks fan on BF about it last year - I think it's because his public persona is a bit gruff and unsophisticated, but he's more savvy than he lets on. One thing about Clarkson sides is that they are well drilled and organised. Clearly the results are speaking for themselves now, he's a good coach.

As for being unconvincing ... I'm not sure, maybe, I kind of know what you mean, they got away with a number of wins that could have gone either way and weren't always at their best. Even the GF, we played half a game of footy and still could have won it with the odd straight kick. But on the other hand, the good teams find ways to win even if they're not on song. That's what separates top 4 from the rest etc. - it's why we are 4-4 instead of being say 5-3 or 6-2 which is probably where ability says we should be at.
 
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clogged

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#38
As for being unconvincing ... I'm not sure, maybe, I kind of know what you mean, they got away with a number of wins that could have gone either way and weren't always at their best. Even the GF, we played half a game of footy and still could have won it with the odd straight kick. But on the other hand, the good teams find ways to win even if they're not on song. That's what separates top 4 from the rest etc. - it's why we are 4-4 instead of being say 5-3 or 6-2 which is probably where ability says we should be at.
I think it's more that their season was exceptionally well paced. Other sides have gone 20-2 in home and away i recent years (St Kilda 2009, Collingwood 2011) and the thinking has been its theirs to lose because of how awesome they have been compared to the rest of the competition.

At no stage did Hawthorn set a gap between themselves and the rest of the competition, despite only losing to two teams all year and three games in total. Any one of the top four could have beaten them, which is rare in most finals series, but Hawthorn got the job done.
 

sij1981

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#39
Good mate of mine is a Hawks supporter who observes that Hawthorn is vulnerable to Geelong and Sydney pressure.

Why not ours?

In Rd 3, Hawks ran riot through the corridor like a thundering herd of gazelles on the Kenyan savanna, as any Hawk with the footy in hand had one or two teammates running alongside to handball to, or someone ahead to kick to. Different sport analogy, but they looked like the '80s "Showtime" Lakers in the NBA wiping the floor with the talented, but flatfooted Celtics.

Granted, we were already without Barlow and Fyfe and Mayne, Ibbo and Son-Son all went down with injuries, but still.

Oh and I definitely see the merits of other posters who rate the home loss to North as a worse defeat than getting poleaxed by Hawthorn. I also was livid, considering we held the Roos last year to 29 points. But y'know Coach Lyon's mantra: "The past counts for nothing."

Still see Hawthorn loss as worse, as we had a chance to show the world we could hang with and beat those guys. Hope we get our hurt boys back for late-season matches against them and Port, are in ripping form and beat them so badly they'll answer "Freo!" when we ask 'em, "who's your daddy?!" :mad:
love that classic - hit them hard when it counts.
 

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#40
Our descent to mediocrity is because our supporting cast has failed to elevate their game whereas other teams' have risen. We consistently rely on our guns to get the job done and unfortunately that's not going to cut it especially on the offensive side of the ball. The RTB system will always have us in the game but we need contributions from all to get a score on the board.
 

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#41
Our descent to mediocrity is because our supporting cast has failed to elevate their game whereas other teams' have risen. We consistently rely on our guns to get the job done and unfortunately that's not going to cut it especially on the offensive side of the ball. The RTB system will always have us in the game but we need contributions from all to get a score on the board.
Yeap. When our top midfielders - i.e. Barlow, Fyfe, Mundy, Sandi - are around the clearances together we look great. When they're not we are vulnerable. There is a big gap between our top 10 players and our bottom half dozen.

Also, we shouldn't underestimate the influence of Walters. I remember seeing stats of our win percentage with him in the team vs him not in the team. With Walters in we win 75% or something of the time, without him it's in the 40s.

Great original post Gil btw.
 

sij1981

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#42
Yeap. When our top midfielders - i.e. Barlow, Fyfe, Mundy, Sandi - are around the clearances together we look great. When they're not we are vulnerable. There is a big gap between our top 10 players and our bottom half dozen.

Also, we shouldn't underestimate the influence of Walters. I remember seeing stats of our win percentage with him in the team vs him not in the team. With Walters in we win 75% or something of the time, without him it's in the 40s.

Great original post Gil btw.
agree on the importance of micky walters his pressure accurate kicking and speed is just too valuable. can feel it now if ballantyne is off micky is on and vice versa, forward line pressure is something we miss this year.
 

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#43
Losing Sonny is big alright.
Leading goal scorer for starters but then it wouldn't surprise me if he was top three in assists.
Then on top of that the amount of pressure he places on opposition defence.What they have to concede to keep him from kicking double figures week after week etc etc.
 

sij1981

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#44
Losing Sonny is big alright.
Leading goal scorer for starters but then it wouldn't surprise me if he was top three in assists.
Then on top of that the amount of pressure he places on opposition defence.What they have to concede to keep him from kicking double figures week after week etc etc.
heel be back come finals time !!!!
 

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#45
Yeah, and before this week, Sydney's best game to date was against us, and so is norf's.

Teams are lifting their game when they play us, we have to find a way to lift our's as well somehow...
Agree. We are no doubt the hunted now (as much as I HATE that term...).
 

Wigarus

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#46
Yeap. When our top midfielders - i.e. Barlow, Fyfe, Mundy, Sandi - are around the clearances together we look great. When they're not we are vulnerable. There is a big gap between our top 10 players and our bottom half dozen.

Also, we shouldn't underestimate the influence of Walters. I remember seeing stats of our win percentage with him in the team vs him not in the team. With Walters in we win 75% or something of the time, without him it's in the 40s.

Great original post Gil btw.

I read that stat too but it was misleading tbh. It included the first half of 2012 where Ross was experimenting and Walters was banished and also included our terrible run of 7 losses in a row at the end of Harveys reign.
 

E Shed

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#47
Losing Sonny is big alright.
Leading goal scorer for starters but then it wouldn't surprise me if he was top three in assists.
Then on top of that the amount of pressure he places on opposition defence.What they have to concede to keep him from kicking double figures week after week etc etc.
I noted in some Pav highlights I watched recently some of the lace out spoon fed delivery from Sonny to the big man.
He is a massive out.
 

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#48
Yeap. When our top midfielders - i.e. Barlow, Fyfe, Mundy, Sandi - are around the clearances together we look great. When they're not we are vulnerable. There is a big gap between our top 10 players and our bottom half dozen.

Also, we shouldn't underestimate the influence of Walters. I remember seeing stats of our win percentage with him in the team vs him not in the team. With Walters in we win 75% or something of the time, without him it's in the 40s.

Great original post Gil btw.
Agree. When he slotted into the side late 2012, things seemed to click. Every side needs a bit of a "look at me" character in their forward line. He provides that in abundance. He provides goals in abundance as well.
 

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#49
Pretty funny looking back how many people wanted to shitcan Walters. My personal favourite was that he's 'too slow'.
 

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#50
I think his pace is less than explosive and I also reckon it has improved a yard since his skinfold/lifestyle issue.
I reckon where Sonny is faster than nearly everyone around is in the head.It's a real instinct meets intelligence meets anticipation thing which allows him to see what's most likely to happen before others do.
It's not magic he has fantastic peripheral awareness and is also always very clued up about who is where around him both friend and foe.
The training watchers would be the ones who'd be able to say I guess but do you reckon him and Ballas are the same speed??
 
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