Prediction Future of Josh has gone to the Dogs.

Where's Schack at in 2018?

  • Brisbane

    Votes: 173 42.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 141 34.5%
  • Does anybody even care anymore?

    Votes: 95 23.2%

  • Total voters
    409
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pod17

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Jul 2, 2007
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Schache has all the physical attributes to make it. Tall (199 cm), a good mark on the lead and he's has an excellent tank, so can run all day. He's barely out of his teens so still needs to put on weight and muscle. He had a good season last year, but even this year in the game against Richmond (which I attended), he moved up the ground well, picked up a few possessions, presented well as a moving target and kicked a couple of goals. On that day he was certainly on a par with Hipwood that day, although Hipwood certainly had the far better season overall. For a 19 year old key forward, (as he was at the time) there was no real reason to suggest he wouldn't get better in the coming years.

I still see no real physical reason why he shouldn't continue to improve in a key forward role next season and beyond. If there's doubts about his mental capacity to play good football at an AFL level, then he's been given every opportunity to address that aspect by being traded back to Victoria.

I know that KPP's take time to develop, but I feel as if Schache is actually lacking most of the attributes required to really make it. Did he test at the 2015 combine? I cannot recall, but Hipwood did, and he showed far more to suggest he is more suited to the modern game through his agility and leap testing. Combine results aren't everything, but they add substance to support a recruiter's thinking. If he did test, I would have liked to have seen something to suggest he had more strings to his bow than his size.

For the most part. Schache's work ethic in games (ones and twos) has been atrocious whilst at the Lions (for reasons that have been discussed at length), and his goal kicking - supposedly a feature - has been poor too. The unders we received for him yesterday stings, but for me, I'm more concerned that our top 10 draftees in recent years (excluding last year) have been fairly so-so.
 
So what changed? Watching that Bulldogs clip of Schache, sounds like he had thrown in the towel at the Lions a LONG LONG time ago. Bizarre watching him thank the Lions (seemed genuine), but staring at the ground as he said it the whole time. Then smiling and discussing how one of the biggest drawcards with being at the Doggies is to play in a young group - strange comments putting into perspective the young group at the Lions.

Sad that the club didn't pick up on the massive flight risk that he was when drafting him. Perhaps they did, but hedged their bets that he'd come good. I guess we will never know.
I noticed this aswell, when talking about the doggies he was all smiles and happy and then when talking about the Lions (although thanking them) his mood and facial expressions changed to be quite a sombre look.
I do wish him the best, but at the same time I wouldn't be dissapointed if he turns into another Aish!
 
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I know that KPP's take time to develop, but I feel as if Schache is actually lacking most of the attributes required to really make it. Did he test at the 2015 combine?

At the time of his recruitiing Schache was noted for his top-end endurance for a player his size (he ran a 14.1 beep test - although that wasn't in the combine). In the U/18s Schache generated most of his shots on goal by getting the ball on the lead or through sheer work ethic by outrunning his opponent. And certainly against Richmond, that's the type of play I observed from him, ranging far up the ground to get possessions and leading out. In this year's pre-season he and Harris Andrews were the top end runners in the squad. After his re-signing mid-year he apparently trained the house down and forced his way back into the seniors.

Yeah he needs to put on muscle and bulk to compete more strongly in one on one contests, but so do many key position forwards just out of their teens. Key forwards take time for primarily that reason and if Schache were to continue his AFL career he'll reach his physical prime in 4-5 years. Unfortunately it just won't be with the Lions.
 
I think it's really clear that Schache was never going to work with us so I won't feel upset at all if he goes on to be the best forward in the comp.

Just really really hope he can get everything together in his head and not put so much pressure on himself. It's a blessing for him that the dogs didn't give up a 1st rounder as I imagine the dogs fans will be patient with him.

I can't judge him for leaving and I can be comfortable that the club did everything it could.

Easier to stomach today than yesterday. If we get Ballenden in and 2-3 young mids we'll be in a good spot.

Thanks for your time at the club Josh. See you in 2025 when you want to come back and help us push for the last leg of our 4peat.

Thanks to Daniels Riches for giving us all insight into the challenges these young players face. Hopefully we can carry that knowledge into discussions about the next player that wants to leave.
 

pod17

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At the time of his recruitiing Schache was noted for his top-end endurance for a player his size (he ran a 14.1 beep test - although that wasn't in the combine).

Thanks Roylion. I did see him reaching over the top of shorter opponents quite a lot, and Weitering toweling him was interesting. But 14.1 is impressive for a bigger player. I guess we will wait and see if he turns out to be a good addition to the Dogs.
 

lioninthesand

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He is just an exterme introvert. I chatted with him on the fence line at training one afternoon for about 2 minutes and he was so nervous talking to me and other fans, he just looked so uncomfortable like it was public speaking in front of 10 thousand people. Really nice Guy, seemed genuinely down to earth but just sensed a very high level of uncomfortability having any attention on him. It's just his nature. Club would have detected that in the interview for sure, but most of the time that more shy, introverted, out of the spotlight nature would suite what we are looking for, it would ususally be the cocky self assured Guys that would be of concern.
 
Gee watching that Dogs interview he didn't look or speak like that once in any of our media - he looked petrified the whole time, now I am thinking... how did we not detect his inability to move away from home when interviewing him.. lol
I would suspect he is happy with the trade and being closer to Seymour and that is showing through. I truly wonder if he can sustain that.
 
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Thanks Roylion. I did see him reaching over the top of shorter opponents quite a lot, and Weitering toweling him was interesting. But 14.1 is impressive for a bigger player. I guess we will wait and see if he turns out to be a good addition to the Dogs.

I think he will be. But I wouldn't expect it instantly.

John Longmire once said of Lance Franklin that "his athleticism for his size is what makes him a really unique forward if you’re comparing eras". I see Josh Schache, if he reaches his full potential, being the same type of player. That doesn't mean (as some have suggested elsewhere) that I think Schache will be necessarily as good as Franklin when he reaches his prime, or that they are exactly the same type of player right now. Schache is barely 20 and just starting out, Franklin is 30 with over a decade in the system. Rather they have the same type of strengths for 199cm key position forwards. When Franklin started his AFL career he had many of the same attributes as Schache does - height, good kicking skills, excellent athleticism and endurance for his size in terms of roaming up the ground and back. When he was 18, Franklin was also (like Schache is now) quite slightly built for his height. However Franklin developed over a few seasons into a hulk of a player but still keeping his speed, athleticism and ground level skills.

Can Schache show considerable development in those areas? Probably, if his head is right. (Other than that I'm not going to make - and haven't made - comments on the state of his emotions - that's completely out of my knowledge)

Will Schache be as good as Franklin? Probably not. Franklin is a one in a generation key posiiton forward.

But even if Schache develops into say 75% of the player Franklin is / has been, he'll be a very handy key position forward for his club over a number of years.
 

lioninthesand

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I would suspect he is happy with the trade and being closer to Seymour and that is showing through. I truly wonder if he can sustain that.

He had the skill level to be elite, just not sure if he has the temperament. Being in the Melbourne footy world is gong to be a big adjustment, being known on every street you walk down, being asked for photos, people milling around your table asking for photos and chatting while you are out for dinner.. Seymour is a long way away from Melbourne still.

I genuinely am comfortable that we can't predict what he could have been with us, even if he goes onto be All Australian or whatever, because he was on a terrible trajectory with us, we have no idea how it would have turned out, but it wasn't tracking well.
 
We got a pick equivalent in points between the 13-14 range so wasn't far off.

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I'd just like to pull up this point for a second. Noble said 12 or 13 when he was trying to spin it, but I think some basic analysis shows that it's complete crap.

We trade Schache for 25 and 40. That's points around pick 13-14 according to the draft points system.
We then immediately traded [20 and 25] for [15 and 52].

These trades were so dependent on each other that, realistically, it's better to look at them (from our point of view) as one trade.

For starters, it shows that regardless of the draft points system, the balancing was way off.

We did not trade Schache for 25 and 40.
We ended up with:
Out: Schache and 20
In: 15, 40, 52

For starters, on the points system, that indicates that, not 13-14, but that we traded Schache for 875 draft points. About pick 21.

Realistically though, what we actually traded was Schache and pick 20 for pick 15 and change that may or may not be necessary for Ballenden. Really it was the pick upgrade.

I've decided that having Noble as our head of football means that there are various things that will be done better, including spin/marketing, and well as contracting, and he seems to run a smooth department. But after considering some of Adelaide's trades while he was there, and looking at how shockingly the trades of Cameron and Schache were managed, I don't think he's good at the trade table. Undervalues his own stock and overvalues other stock.

I'm also disappointed in the club, that they sold the narrative of "oh, we told Schache we'd be open to trading him. It was a mature conversation. We'd be happy to have him back". It's clear after yesterday that this is a blatant lie. However you frame it, Josh was never coming back to the club. They may as well have come out and said "he's put in the trade request". I get the "trying to maximise value" argument, but clearly behind closed doors, it was always a fire sale, and so he wasn't deceiving other clubs, he was deceiving the media and the supporters, which makes it nothing more than sales puff.
 

lioninthesand

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I'd just like to pull up this point for a second. Noble said 12 or 13 when he was trying to spin it, but I think some basic analysis shows that it's complete crap.

We trade Schache for 25 and 40. That's points around pick 13-14 according to the draft points system.
We then immediately traded [20 and 25] for [15 and 52].

These trades were so dependent on each other that, realistically, it's better to look at them (from our point of view) as one trade.

For starters, it shows that regardless of the draft points system, the balancing was way off.

We did not trade Schache for 25 and 40.
We ended up with:
Out: Schache and 20
In: 15, 40, 52

For starters, on the points system, that indicates that, not 13-14, but that we traded Schache for 875 draft points. About pick 21.

Realistically though, what we actually traded was Schache and pick 20 for pick 15 and change that may or may not be necessary for Ballenden. Really it was the pick upgrade.

I've decided that having Noble as our head of football means that there are various things that will be done better, including spin/marketing, and well as contracting, and he seems to run a smooth department. But after considering some of Adelaide's trades while he was there, and looking at how shockingly the trades of Cameron and Schache were managed, I don't think he's good at the trade table. Undervalues his own stock and overvalues other stock.

I'm also disappointed in the club, that they sold the narrative of "oh, we told Schache we'd be open to trading him. It was a mature conversation. We'd be happy to have him back". It's clear after yesterday that this is a blatant lie. However you frame it, Josh was never coming back to the club. They may as well have come out and said "he's put in the trade request". I get the "trying to maximise value" argument, but clearly behind closed doors, it was always a fire sale, and so he wasn't deceiving other clubs, he was deceiving the media and the supporters, which makes it nothing more than sales puff.

I think Noble had a point when he said you can't just attach a strict value to each pick, you need to evaluate if what you use it on fills a need. We need speed next year, we can't afford to go backwards and throw Fagen under the microscope in his third year. 12 was overs, but it fills a need, we spent it. We also need to take our overall position into account. Adding Hodge (experience) and Cameron (speed) were our 2 biggest needs, then 1,15,18 + Bellenden (all going well) is an incredibly good position to be going into 2018 with.

We got for Josh what the market determined he was worth, end of story. Bugger bringing him back and the depressing s*** storm that would have inevitably led to for fans and our young playing group over the next 12 months, even if he 'may of' turned it around (nothing logically suggested he would).

I said the whole time 'there's no way Schache is coming back next year' and I am surprised fans bought so far into the notion that notion we would take him back. It was on par with the Aish preseason draft threat. But what was Noble to do? totally destroy any leverage we had by publicly declaring that we weren't going to take him back and further kill his value just to appease fans? I think it is on the fans, especially the more informed Bigfooty folk, to know how these things work - you make public statements to sure up your position and call other teams bluff, then you take what they are worth at the end. We lost out not because we are weak or it was poorly managed, we lost out because Schache was vitrually worthless and Cameron was contracted. had we gone to the trade table with a player with worth like Hipwood the outcome would have been more like that of Lever. we also had the 2 boys wellbeing in mind when making those deals and I commend the club for doing so.
 

Bjorn Again

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I'd just like to pull up this point for a second. Noble said 12 or 13 when he was trying to spin it, but I think some basic analysis shows that it's complete crap.

We trade Schache for 25 and 40. That's points around pick 13-14 according to the draft points system.
We then immediately traded [20 and 25] for [15 and 52].

These trades were so dependent on each other that, realistically, it's better to look at them (from our point of view) as one trade.

For starters, it shows that regardless of the draft points system, the balancing was way off.

We did not trade Schache for 25 and 40.
We ended up with:
Out: Schache and 20
In: 15, 40, 52

For starters, on the points system, that indicates that, not 13-14, but that we traded Schache for 875 draft points. About pick 21.

Realistically though, what we actually traded was Schache and pick 20 for pick 15 and change that may or may not be necessary for Ballenden. Really it was the pick upgrade.

I've decided that having Noble as our head of football means that there are various things that will be done better, including spin/marketing, and well as contracting, and he seems to run a smooth department. But after considering some of Adelaide's trades while he was there, and looking at how shockingly the trades of Cameron and Schache were managed, I don't think he's good at the trade table. Undervalues his own stock and overvalues other stock.

I'm also disappointed in the club, that they sold the narrative of "oh, we told Schache we'd be open to trading him. It was a mature conversation. We'd be happy to have him back". It's clear after yesterday that this is a blatant lie. However you frame it, Josh was never coming back to the club. They may as well have come out and said "he's put in the trade request". I get the "trying to maximise value" argument, but clearly behind closed doors, it was always a fire sale, and so he wasn't deceiving other clubs, he was deceiving the media and the supporters, which makes it nothing more than sales puff.

Nonsense.
He built the Crows list who were minor premiers this year. His prior successes include Eddie Betts (best trade of all time - at Carlton he was average and Crows put in best offer), Tom Lynch, Josh Jenkins and Matt Crouch. The Crows supporters universally bagged Nobes for trading favourite son Bernie Vince for pick 23 during the year they were banned over Tippettgate. He used this for All-Australian Matt Crouch. This was a masterstroke of genius. Yet all Crows supporters forget he ever did this now.
The club clearly sees Schache as a list-clogger and not up to it mentally. Nobes got what he could for him. Note that Nobes was not involved in picking Schache in the first place. I'd be very surprised to see Josh succeed at AFL level at any club.
Give Nobes a couple of years at least before bagging him. I think in future years this year's drafting and trading will be looked at completely differently to how you perceive it now.

EDIT: Not to forget Brad Crouch and Luke Brown, also done off a trade with GWS.
 

M Malice

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Nonsense.
He built the Crows list who were minor premiers this year. His prior successes include Eddie Betts (best trade of all time - at Carlton he was average and Crows put in best offer), Tom Lynch, Josh Jenkins and Matt Crouch. The Crows supporters universally bagged Nobes for trading favourite son Bernie Vince for pick 23 during the year they were banned over Tippettgate. He used this for All-Australian Matt Crouch. This was a masterstroke of genius. Yet all Crows supporters forget he ever did this now.
The club clearly sees Schache as a list-clogger and not up to it mentally. Nobes got what he could for him. Note that Nobes was not involved in picking Schache in the first place. I'd be very surprised to see Josh succeed at AFL level at any club.
Give Nobes a couple of years at least before bagging him. I think in future years this year's drafting and trading will be looked at completely differently to how you perceive it now.

EDIT: Not to forget Brad Crouch and Luke Brown, also done off a trade with GWS.
The only part of that I disagree with is mentioning Josh Jenkins in the same breath as Lynch and Crouch, Jenkins is as soft as butter.
 
I would suspect he is happy with the trade and being closer to Seymour and that is showing through. I truly wonder if he can sustain that.

Yeah the challenge will be when the grind starts again and that awesome feeling he has right now from finally getting home starts to dissipate.

Doggies fans need to be patient. This won't be a simple fix for him and they have to understand that.

Again, wish him all the best and hope he can kick a bag early next year to convince himself he belongs in the AFL. Would hate to see him continue to struggle.
 
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I'd just like to pull up this point for a second. Noble said 12 or 13 when he was trying to spin it, but I think some basic analysis shows that it's complete crap.

We trade Schache for 25 and 40. That's points around pick 13-14 according to the draft points system.
We then immediately traded [20 and 25] for [15 and 52].

These trades were so dependent on each other that, realistically, it's better to look at them (from our point of view) as one trade.

For starters, it shows that regardless of the draft points system, the balancing was way off.

We did not trade Schache for 25 and 40.
We ended up with:
Out: Schache and 20
In: 15, 40, 52

For starters, on the points system, that indicates that, not 13-14, but that we traded Schache for 875 draft points. About pick 21.

Realistically though, what we actually traded was Schache and pick 20 for pick 15 and change that may or may not be necessary for Ballenden. Really it was the pick upgrade.

I've decided that having Noble as our head of football means that there are various things that will be done better, including spin/marketing, and well as contracting, and he seems to run a smooth department. But after considering some of Adelaide's trades while he was there, and looking at how shockingly the trades of Cameron and Schache were managed, I don't think he's good at the trade table. Undervalues his own stock and overvalues other stock.

I'm also disappointed in the club, that they sold the narrative of "oh, we told Schache we'd be open to trading him. It was a mature conversation. We'd be happy to have him back". It's clear after yesterday that this is a blatant lie. However you frame it, Josh was never coming back to the club. They may as well have come out and said "he's put in the trade request". I get the "trying to maximise value" argument, but clearly behind closed doors, it was always a fire sale, and so he wasn't deceiving other clubs, he was deceiving the media and the supporters, which makes it nothing more than sales puff.
My guess is that you wouldn't be happy with whatever way the club spun it. He's gone, lets move on.
 
I think Noble had a point when he said you can't just attach a strict value to each pick, you need to evaluate if what you use it on fills a need. We need speed next year, we can't afford to go backwards and throw Fagen under the microscope in his third year. 12 was overs, but it fills a need, we spent it. We also need to take our overall position into account. Adding Hodge (experience) and Cameron (speed) were our 2 biggest needs, then 1,15,18 + Bellenden (all going well) is an incredibly good position to be going into 2018 with.

We got for Josh what the market determined he was worth, end of story. Bugger bringing him back and the depressing s*** storm that would have inevitably led to for fans and our young playing group over the next 12 months, even if he 'may of' turned it around (nothing logically suggested he would).

I said the whole time 'there's no way Schache is coming back next year' and I am surprised fans bought so far into the notion that notion we would take him back. It was on par with the Aish preseason draft threat. But what was Noble to do? totally destroy any leverage we had by publicly declaring that we weren't going to take him back and further kill his value just to appease fans? I think it is on the fans, especially the more informed Bigfooty folk, to know how these things work - you make public statements to sure up your position and call other teams bluff, then you take what they are worth at the end. We lost out not because we are weak or it was poorly managed, we lost out because Schache was vitrually worthless and Cameron was contracted. had we gone to the trade table with a player with worth like Hipwood the outcome would have been more like that of Lever. we also had the 2 boys wellbeing in mind when making those deals and I commend the club for doing so.
Player signs a new contract mid-year, and you're surprised when fans consider that it shouldn't be a fire sale?

I agree that we need to take our overall position into account. But I actually consider what the 'before' was, rather than just saying the 'after looks good'.

If we say that we didn't have much option on the Rocky FA compo, then we end up with:

Before: 1, 12, 18, 20, Schache
After: 1, 15, 18, Cameron

Effectively, we traded: Schache, pick 20, and a downgrade from 12 to 15. And received: Cameron.

How does that look? Not quite as good, huh? For that trade, I'd have tried a few more things with Schache. Maybe he could do with some tough love. I think it was Lethal used to say that players didn't get over homesickness until their 3rd year. Regardless I'd have said he was worth persevering with. If he was worthless, try him for 2 more years. His worth might have improved. Certainly couldn't get much worse.

And Cameron - we already looked like the good guys, we did everything right. Let him play his last year with Adelaide, then pick him up for a pick in the 30s or 40s next year (even if he plays his one good game of the year right before trade period, like he did this year - seriously, go check the game review threads on the Adelaide board for the year).
 
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Nonsense.
He built the Crows list who were minor premiers this year. His prior successes include Eddie Betts (best trade of all time - at Carlton he was average and Crows put in best offer), Tom Lynch, Josh Jenkins and Matt Crouch. The Crows supporters universally bagged Nobes for trading favourite son Bernie Vince for pick 23 during the year they were banned over Tippettgate. He used this for All-Australian Matt Crouch. This was a masterstroke of genius. Yet all Crows supporters forget he ever did this now.
The club clearly sees Schache as a list-clogger and not up to it mentally. Nobes got what he could for him. Note that Nobes was not involved in picking Schache in the first place. I'd be very surprised to see Josh succeed at AFL level at any club.
Give Nobes a couple of years at least before bagging him. I think in future years this year's drafting and trading will be looked at completely differently to how you perceive it now.

EDIT: Not to forget Brad Crouch and Luke Brown, also done off a trade with GWS.
Well said
 
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Gee watching that Dogs interview he didn't look or speak like that once in any of our media - he looked petrified the whole time, now I am thinking... how did we not detect his inability to move away from home when interviewing him.. lol

I thought the video looked almost identical to the one he did after re-signing with us this year.
 
He will be 'sore' for our game, mark my words.

Probably for the best given our own fans were booing him this year, he'll be in for a frosty reception unfortunately.
 
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