Future of Super Rugby

[chibimatty]

I always thought, at the very least, there could be a one-for-one transfer system between the original three nations.

 

[robbieando]

I’ve always thought that was a strange rule. Long term open movement is better - sometimes a fringe player needs more opportunity

Players have been going to France, England and Japan in the numbers they have to get more opportunity for years, the fact that money is also there helps. The Wallabies opened up selection to those players who moved overseas who had 60 caps. Being able to compete with League that have twice the salary cap is going to be a challenge regardless if national selection in closed or open

The problem with such an idea of open selection within Super Rugby is that as long as it would benefit Australian Rugby in improving on the field, New Zealand Rugby would block it as they don't need to open up their Super Rugby teams anymore than they already have.

If you look at world football, the best players tend to stick to playing in the best domestic competitions - even if it’s their own nation by default. And funnily enough the last three European World Cup winners (Germany, Spain and Italy) all had most of their best XI coming from their own domestic leagues.

All Rugby World Cup winners can point to the same thing, their players come from their own domestic clubs.

 

[Scotland]

If SR allowed free movement of players it would benefit NZ the most.

They have 5 teams, so they have 5 starting scrum halves, 5 starting fly halves, 5 starting full backs etc. competing for spots in the All Blacks XV.

The 6th best Kiwi is going to be better than the 3rd or 4th best Aussie in many positions, so we'd see a few Aussie players being dropped back to club rugby so the Aussie SR teams can field Kiwi players, so some guy who is playing 10-20 minutes a game for the Crusaders will instead be getting 60-70 minutes for the Reds and able to show the All Black coach what he's got.

 

[Hap Hapablap]

wow forrest wants to play against the rebels sh*t move

 

[chibimatty]

wow forrest wants to play against the rebels sh*t move

Yeah, I'm not too keen on that either, considering Wessels and a bunch of Force guys will have to come here and play as our opposition. Having said that, I also have misgivings about the Crusaders game, it would be a shame to see the new Force and their fans, after all they've been through, getting booed at home yet again by the local NZ-expat community.

But hey, I can't just poo-poo everything; sometimes things aren't perfect

 

[fumbler]

Yeah, I'm not too keen on that either, considering Wessels and a bunch of Force guys will have to come here and play as our opposition. Having said that, I also have misgivings about the Crusaders game, it would be a shame to see the new Force and their fans, after all they've been through, getting booed at home yet again by the local NZ-expat community.

But hey, I can't just poo-poo everything; sometimes things aren't perfect

Why did they decide to go with Pacific Nations and not Singapore, Philippines, UAE, Indonesia, Korea, Hong Kong (China) and Japan (not Sunwolves)?

 

[chibimatty]

Why did they decide to go with Pacific Nations and not Singapore, Philippines, UAE, Indonesia, Korea, Hong Kong (China) and Japan (not Sunwolves)?

Well we are going to play the Hong Kong national side, and like Hong Kong, the Pacific sides were looking for "test matches" to add to their season as they've been out of the loop this year. I also believe that because we weren't getting a test match this year, they wanted to hit the ground running by bringing recognised rugby nations with name value to Perth, in essence letting us see four "test" teams instead of our allocated none. Also, Hong Kong and those three Pacific Island teams were part of the proposed IPRC plans from it's inception.

Note too, that there is also one "to be confirmed" opponent to round the season off before the NRC starts. Rumour has it, that it may be a Japan Top-League team or a French club. We also may look into a South African team of some sort, one of the provinces or an U-23 or an "A" team. However, there has been talk that this last fixture might be the "surprising opponent" that was touted last year, some have thought it may be the Barbarians, New Zealand Maori or the full Japan national team. One thing I will say, we've never ever seen France play in Perth, so that would be something special indeed if he managed to pull that off.

 

[robbieando]

Well we are going to play the Hong Kong national side, and like Hong Kong, the Pacific sides were looking for "test matches" to add to their season as they've been out of the loop this year.

But none of these matches are "Test Matches" nor are you getting Full Strength sides for all of them (you certainly aren't for the Fiji and Tonga games with their European players not available for selection) and besides giving Fiji and Tonga a look at their home grown depth, Hong Kong and Samoa are still playing in World Cup Qualifiers until June with the prospect of more later in the year. That isn't out of the loop.

I also believe that because we weren't getting a test match this year, they wanted to hit the ground running by bringing recognised rugby nations with name value to Perth, in essence letting us see four "test" teams instead of our allocated none. Also, Hong Kong and those three Pacific Island teams were part of the proposed IPRC plans from it's inception.

Thats a fair point, you do need to hit the ground running this year for the start of IPRC/WSR next year and regardless of the teams you play this year and their strength (or lack thereof), your marketing games at the Perth market to say that the Force is still here and will be bigger than ever next year.

Note too, that there is also one "to be confirmed" opponent to round the season off before the NRC starts. Rumour has it, that it may be a Japan Top-League team or a French club. We also may look into a South African team of some sort, one of the provinces or an U-23 or an "A" team. However, there has been talk that this last fixture might be the "surprising opponent" that was touted last year, some have thought it may be the Barbarians, New Zealand Maori or the full Japan national team. One thing I will say, we've never ever seen France play in Perth, so that would be something special indeed if he managed to pull that off.

Its August it won't be a Test team from the North, its outside the European Test window and about a fortnight before the start of the club season. The BaaBaa's would be a good shout and so would a French Club (Racing 92 and Toulon have both played friendly games against New Zealand teams in Hong Kong during the 6 Nations break in the past few years if you want to link things), the others don't really match up as much.

 

[chibimatty]

But none of these matches are "Test Matches" nor are you getting Full Strength sides for all of them (you certainly aren't for the Fiji and Tonga games with their European players not available for selection) and besides giving Fiji and Tonga a look at their home grown depth, Hong Kong and Samoa are still playing in World Cup Qualifiers until June with the prospect of more later in the year. That isn't out of the loop.

Well, I did write "test matches" in inverted commas

 

[balmainforever]

wow forrest wants to play against the rebels sh*t move

It'll be more of a rising playing group. Australia play Ireland in Brisbane the same weekend.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

All Blacks coach says weak Australian teams have no place in trans-Tasman rugby competition

Senior New Zealand rugby figures are questioning whether Australia deserves as many teams as it wants in any future competition involving both countries.

abc.net.au

 

[RedV3x]

All Blacks coach says weak Australian teams have no place in trans-Tasman rugby competition

Senior New Zealand rugby figures are questioning whether Australia deserves as many teams as it wants in any future competition involving both countries.

abc.net.au

Two mainland teams in a N.Z. competition.
Kiwis finally get redemption.

 

[Walshawk]

Kiwis have suggested 5 x NW, Pacific Island and two AU teams. Pacific won’t be ready for 2021, so reckon we might see an 8 team comp with NSW, Qld & ACT. NZ have asked for AU clubs to apply.

 

[General Giant]

Kiwis have suggested 5 x NW, Pacific Island and two AU teams. Pacific won’t be ready for 2021, so reckon we might see an 8 team comp with NSW, Qld & ACT. NZ have asked for AU clubs to apply.

We should tell them to go and get f’ed

 

[Walshawk]

We should tell them to go and get f’ed

Australia doesn’t have the depth for a 8 team national comp. ARU knows that would create too big a step up between SuperAU and test rugby. Three AU teams would be about right if we want them to be competitive.

Aratipu Report: 'Huge desire' for Pasifika side in 8-10 team Super Rugby competition

NZR calls for expressions of interest from Australia to complement five NZ teams and a Pacific Island side.

www.stuff.co.nz

 

[General Giant]

Australia doesn’t have the depth for a 8 team national comp. ARU knows that would create too big a step up between SuperAU and test rugby. Three AU teams would be about right if we want them to be competitive.

Aratipu Report: 'Huge desire' for Pasifika side in 8-10 team Super Rugby competition

NZR calls for expressions of interest from Australia to complement five NZ teams and a Pacific Island side.

www.stuff.co.nz

2 teams in a professional comp would kill the sport here.

Concentrate on ourselves. In it the Japanese and Fiji(they play in the NRC) and see how we go.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

So a 4th or/and 3rd Australian team is too crap but a "Pacific Island" team where the game isn't even professional is up to standard? Sounds... odd. Who'd be funding this "Pacific Island" team?

 

[Walshawk]

So a 4th or/and 3rd Australian team is too crap but a "Pacific Island" team where the game isn't even professional is up to standard? Sounds... odd. Who'd be funding this "Pacific Island" team?

I believe Pasifika would be made up of Samoan, Fijian and Tongan players and based in NZ. NZ are setting the agenda here.

 

[Walshawk]

2 teams in a professional comp would kill the sport here.

Concentrate on ourselves. In it the Japanese and Fiji(they play in the NRC) and see how we go.

The Fijian players will be playing for Pasifika in NZ.
ARL is taking about a six or eight team local comp if they knock back NZ. That would be a very poor standard and a mistake.

 

[Scotland]

A Pacific Island team would just be funded by the NZRU and would be a feeder team for the NZRU.

SR with 5 NZ, 1 PI and 2 AU would be a disaster for Australian rugby.

A domestic comp of 8 teams here would be a disaster for Australian rugby.

 

[General Giant]

The Fijian players will be playing for Pasifika in NZ.
ARL is taking about a six or eight team local comp if they knock back NZ. That would be a very poor standard and a mistake.

No more a mistake than 3 clubs in a kiwi comp.

 

[Walshawk]

No more a mistake than 3 clubs in a kiwi comp.

Oz Rugby was much better with just NSW, Qld & ACT. Better standard. We would be largely uncompetitive with four or five Oz teams v the NZ teams.

 

[Scotland]

Oz Rugby was much better with just NSW, Qld & ACT. Better standard. We would be largely uncompetitive with four or five Oz teams v the NZ teams.

Are you talking tests or SR results? From 1996-2005 when it was the Super 12 the Brumbies were champions twice and the other two never. From 2006 to present the Waratahs and Reds have both won it.

There is an argument that there isn't enough talent to go around 4 or 5 teams, but the counter to that is that we now have two new markets producing players. Godwin, Hardwick, Haylett-Petty came through a pathway from school/club rugby in Perth to representing the Force to playing for the Wallabies. Rebels have similar. Also with 5 teams more players get a chance to vie for positions at SR level with (in theory) the best of those progressing to test level. Early days the talent pool was thin because WA then Vic had no players. We took Sharpe, Cannon, Mitchell, Giteau etc from existing SR teams - but they were still there for Wallaby selection.

The bigger problem is player drain overseas. George Gregan played 11 years for the Brumbies from SR inception until he was 34. He then played for Toulon and finished up in Japan. Stephen Larkham did similar and played a couple of years with Ricoh Black Rams. Now guys like Barnes, Pocock, O'Connor, Cummins, Skelton - whoever - all fu** off to Europe in their prime because the money is so good. We even changed the rules so Giteau (and Mitchell, White, A-C came back...) to play for the Wallabies without playing in SR.

 

[Seedsfan]

Yeah, I'm not too keen on that either, considering Wessels and a bunch of Force guys will have to come here and play as our opposition. Having said that, I also have misgivings about the Crusaders game, it would be a shame to see the new Force and their fans, after all they've been through, getting booed at home yet again by the local NZ-expat community.

But hey, I can't just poo-poo everything; sometimes things aren't perfect

Look it was a terrible decision axing the Force only made worse by how they turned the clubs on each other. I would assume if the Force comes back the WA locals would return

Personally I hope that we end up with a 10 side super Rugby with everyone playing each other twice

 

[Seedsfan]

Are you talking tests or SR results? From 1996-2005 when it was the Super 12 the Brumbies were champions twice and the other two never. From 2006 to present the Waratahs and Reds have both won it.

There is an argument that there isn't enough talent to go around 4 or 5 teams, but the counter to that is that we now have two new markets producing players. Godwin, Hardwick, Haylett-Petty came through a pathway from school/club rugby in Perth to representing the Force to playing for the Wallabies. Rebels have similar. Also with 5 teams more players get a chance to vie for positions at SR level with (in theory) the best of those progressing to test level. Early days the talent pool was thin because WA then Vic had no players. We took Sharpe, Cannon, Mitchell, Giteau etc from existing SR teams - but they were still there for Wallaby selection.

The bigger problem is player drain overseas. George Gregan played 11 years for the Brumbies from SR inception until he was 34. He then played for Toulon and finished up in Japan. Stephen Larkham did similar and played a couple of years with Ricoh Black Rams. Now guys like Barnes, Pocock, O'Connor, Cummins, Skelton - whoever - all fu** off to Europe in their prime because the money is so good. We even changed the rules so Giteau (and Mitchell, White, A-C came back...) to play for the Wallabies without playing in SR.

100% agree with this.