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igon value

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If Neale's hands in close are elite, are his handball skills in the contest as good as Simon Black or Greg Williams?
 

igon value

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Do you define elite as "best of all time"?

Otherwise, that is a ridiculous question.
Isn't that what elite means?

I'm rating him against elite midfielders that made up past great midfields - Williams, Black, Voss, Judd, Cousins, Ablett, Pendlebury, Fyfe - is he in that class of players or is he more of a Scott West type?
 

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If Neale's hands in close are elite, are his handball skills in the contest as good as Simon Black or Greg Williams?
At a young age of 24 I will said maybe he can reach their height this year,next or 2019 where he is at his peak age of 26.
 

Clems Knee

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Isn't that what elite means?

I'm rating him against elite midfielders that made up past great midfields - Williams, Black, Voss, Judd, Cousins, Ablett, Pendlebury, Fyfe - is he in that class of players or is he more of a Scott West type?

I would think that elite means among the best of their peers.

So comparing to Williams or Black is not fair. Nobody said Neale was of Legend status. Comparing to Pendlebury, Fyfe, Ablett Jnr and other midfielders is fairer.
 

igon value

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I would think that elite means among the best of their peers.

So comparing to Williams or Black is not fair. Nobody said Neale was of Legend status. Comparing to Pendlebury, Fyfe, Ablett Jnr and other midfielders is fairer.
Is he as good as those?

I don't think his hands in close are even elite among his contemporaries. Eg I would rate Bontempelli and Liberatore as far better at creative handball (if you can call what Liberatore does "handball", but the umpires do, so it counts)
 

meima

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Most of the players I listed above had Brownlows and/or Norm Smiths by 24
Well depend on his current injury , he might get his brownlow this year. A lot depend on whether fyfe play more forward . As there is only one ball on the field. Vote will be share by both team on the field.
 

Clems Knee

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Is he as good as those?

I don't think his hands in close are even elite among his contemporaries. Eg I would rate Bontempelli and Liberatore as far better at creative handball (if you can call what Liberatore does "handball", but the umpires do, so it counts)

I think Liberatore is a clearance machine, he has destroyed Freo the last two times he has played against us (over three years, I believe). So based on that, I think Liberatore is the best contemporary handballer.

Bontempelli has more strings to his bow, but I think Neale is a better extractor of the ball.

What can not be denied is that Neale is the greatest ball magnet of all time.
 
Apr 16, 2014
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Probably say best to rate him along side his current competition. Last year he was top 3 for contested possessions and clearances along with having a good DE% compared to other inside mids.

If you're inside the top 1% for the two most important stats based on your position I'd say that would be classed as elite by most.

I'd say Neale is an elite extractor.
 

igon value

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What can not be denied is that Neale is the greatest ball magnet of all time.
This is the kind of hyperbole that leads to disappointment once the season is underway. Most of our players aren't as good as we hope they are. I think Neale's a very good extractor who starred in a very poor team last year. Is he the best in his class, or even top five? For starters he's not the best in his team at winning the ball in congestion or being creative with handball.
 
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This is the kind of hyperbole that leads to disappointment once the season is underway. Most of our players aren't as good as we hope they are. I think Neale's a very good extractor who starred in a very poor team last year. Is he the best in his class, or even top five? For starters he's not the best in his team at winning the ball in congestion or being creative with handball.
So because he's not as good as the best player in the comp he's overrated. He is in the top 1% of his peers for clearances and contested disposals. Sorry but I think you argument is really poor.
 

igon value

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So because he's not as good as the best player in the comp he's overrated. He is in the top 1% of his peers for clearances and contested disposals. Sorry but I think you argument is really poor.
What do you mean 'top 1% of his peers'? Are you comparing him with key defenders and half back flankers?

There are maybe 100 midfielders that could be counted as first choice mids. If he is in the top 1% of those he is the best.
 

Clems Knee

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This is the kind of hyperbole that leads to disappointment once the season is underway. Most of our players aren't as good as we hope they are. I think Neale's a very good extractor who starred in a very poor team last year. Is he the best in his class, or even top five? For starters he's not the best in his team at winning the ball in congestion or being creative with handball.

I was simply acknowledging that he broke the record for the most disposals in the season. No hyperbole there. Just numbers.

I have already said that I think Liberatore is the best handballer currently. Read the rest of the post.
 

igon value

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I was simply acknowledging that he broke the record for the most disposals in the season. No hyperbole there. Just numbers.
Does that actually mean he is the greatest ball magnet of all time, or just had an outstanding season?
 

Clems Knee

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What do you mean 'top 1% of his peers'? Are you comparing him with key defenders and half back flankers?

There are maybe 100 midfielders that could be counted as first choice mids. If he is in the top 1% of those he is the best.

You are being disingenuous now.
This seems to be your thought process:

"I don't like Lachie Neale.
I will call him overrated.
I will make up classifications that can exclude him so that I can justify my dislike. This includes the term elite and top 1% of his peers."
According to these definitions, elite means one or two players in the history of football, and top 1% means one person.

In my opinion, based on what you've said, Lachie Neale is underrated.
 

igon value

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You are being disingenuous now.
This seems to be your thought process:

"I don't like Lachie Neale.
I will call him overrated.
I will make up classifications that can exclude him so that I can justify my dislike. This includes the term elite and top 1% of his peers."
According to these definitions, elite means one or two players in the history of football, and top 1% means one person.

In my opinion, based on what you've said, Lachie Neale is underrated.
Maybe try to discuss what I've actually said. If he has elite hands and extraction, then who is he currently better than at those skills? Fyfe? Pendlebury? Liberatore? Kennedy? Bontempelli? Ablett? Mitchell?

I've listed six players I'd suggest are perhaps better at those things than Neale. Others may feel there are more. Seven out of ~600 footballers that played 1 game in 2016 is 1%.

So what is elite? Is it being in the top 1% of footballers? Top 10%? Top 50%? How do we categorise elite?
 
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What do you mean 'top 1% of his peers'? Are you comparing him with key defenders and half back flankers?

There are maybe 100 midfielders that could be counted as first choice mids. If he is in the top 1% of those he is the best.
Your argument is getting worse by the post. So you say there are 100 midfielders give or take in the comp and he has to be in the top 1% to be considered elite? So by your standards there is only 1 elite midfielder?

FWIW Neale was 1st for disposals, 3rd for clearances, 3rd for contested possessions and had a DE 72.9% which is in the top bracket for inside mids. 6% higher than Kennedy for example.
 

igon value

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Your argument is getting worse by the post. So you say there are 100 midfielders give or take in the comp and he has to be in the top 1% to be considered elite? So by your standards there is only 1 elite midfielder?

I'm asking what you consider to be elite. You said he was in the top 1%, not me.

FWIW Neale was 1st for disposals, 3rd for clearances, 3rd for contested possessions and had a DE 72.9% which is in the top bracket for inside mids. 6% higher than Kennedy for example.
As I keep saying, he had a very good year in a very poor team, that had a depleted midfield due to injury and bad form. Does this mean he should be bracketed with the best in the comp? If the team improves, will his figures stay the same? What do his figures mean in context?

Whose year would you have rathered - Bontempelli (way down on the list for disposals, clearances, contested possessions) or Neale's?
 

Clems Knee

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Maybe try to discuss what I've actually said. If he has elite hands and extraction, then who is he currently better than at those skills? Fyfe? Pendlebury? Liberatore? Kennedy? Bontempelli? Ablett? Mitchell?

I've listed six players I'd suggest are perhaps better at those things than Neale. Others may feel there are more. Six out of ~600 footballers that played 1 game in 2016 is 1%.

So what is elite? Is it being in the top 1% of footballers? Top 10%? Top 50%? How do we categorise elite?

Well at least this time you quoted my whole post. Makes it harder for you to misrepresent me.

You have now named 7 (not 6) footballers to compare with. I already answered you regarding the two Bulldogs players. I find it interesting that even you choose to compare Neale with the best midfielders of the league over the last ten years.

I think Neale is a more limited footballer than those greats. But he is a clearance machine, up there with the best in the business. At this (and at getting possessions where he has just produced the best season of all time) he is elite. So yes Neale would fit into the top 6 of the league at this skill. But nowhere near, overall.

What you have said is that Neale is overrated. You have then used completely restrictive definitions of the terms other posters have used.
 

igon value

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Well at least this time you quoted my whole post. Makes it harder for you to misrepresent me.
I have not misrepresented you. Your posts are still there for anyone to read. Tell me what you feel I need to address.

You have now named 7 (not 6) footballers to compare with.

Post now edited. Is he better than those at handball and extracting the ball? I don't want raw numbers - if there was a one-on-one contest between Sam Mitchell and Lachie Neale for winning the contest and handballing out of congestion into space, who do you think would win? Swap Sam Mitchell for any of the players I've listed.

at getting possessions where he has just produced the best season of all time
Are we really hanging our hat on him accumulating disposals in a team that finish third last making him an elite extractor?
 

meima

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Are we really hanging our hat on him accumulating disposals in a team that finish third last making him an elite extractor?

I do get your point , if Neale to be in elite group he need to perform consistently with those players you compare . But he only 24 this years , maybe with the return of fyfe he can continue further improve his game, but consider he is playing for a bottom 3 team I think he did really good last season.
 
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