Game Day: NAB Cup round 1 v Carlton/Port

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twentydollarnote

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It might only be NAB cup which can be deceiving but we look soooo raw, at least 3 years off being a top 4 side which is kinda disappointing considering how long we have been rebuilding.
 

spenze

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It might only be NAB cup which can be deceiving but we look soooo raw, at least 3 years off being a top 4 side which is kinda disappointing considering how long we have been rebuilding.
How long have we really been rebuilding?

When the tough decisions had to be made after the semi loss to Collingwood, Craig didn't make them and left them in the hands of the players. To me that was a little weird as he had always been on the front foot before that.

As it was we carried five people through when we should have brought through two ( I'm fine with people saying that is great hindsight and I will give Craig some leeway for putting Edwards through but how he thought Burton or Hentschell were pieces of a premiership jigsaw is beyond me.

Given that, we have really only rebuilt from last year and I think your call on us being raw and at least three years from a top 4 side is pretty much spot on. We have turned over our list pretty strongly in the last couple of years which leaves us with a solid group of players under 24

24: Tippett
23: Henderson, Jacobs, Jenkins, Mackay, Martin, Dowdell ®
22: Jaensch, Otten, Petrenko, Sloane, Wright, McIntyre ®
21: Dangerfield, Johnston, Lynch, McKernan, L. Thompson, Walker, Young ®
20: Riley, Shaw, Smith, Talia, Craig ®
19: Brown, Ellis-Yolmen, Grigg, Lyons, Martyn ®
18: Crouch, Joyce, Kerridge, Laird ®, Orval ®


When you add Van Berlo, Vince and Knights being in the 25-26 year old age group, our list is young and talent laden. To play top 4 football they will have to become bigger, so our first 22 will have to be mainly in the 22-28 age group for that to happen.

Just like to point out I don't consider Hendo to be a solid player, he just happens to be under 25
 

Marty64

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24: Tippett
Sellar, Mackay, Gill and Campbell were out picks also that year and we missed out on Bryce Squibs F/S pick. I would rate that as 2/5 for us even though Sellar did show a bit for a while before becoming a list clogger.

The positives from the games, the forward movement rather than backwards/sideways till you turn it over and Stiffy looking fit and firing instead of looking rusty for 4-6 rounds.

Negative, Hendo still hearing footsteps and Tex's efforts which may be gastro related, dominates at SANFL and is yet to find the switch in the big leauge, we get patches of it.

Still only round 1 of a forgetable comp. Wins are wins though :D
 

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VSTone

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I wonder if bower calls taylor attack on the ball soft?..see 15 mins in on last half v carl...:thumbsu:
loving your softness Tex...and then goal seconds later...
 

Allefgib

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if reilly is going to play loose man in defence he has to do better than 2 touches in over 30mins of football. (port game) I was at the game and most hte port game he had no one near him and was able to run to the contests as he wanted - got in teh way nicely a few times, but has to find the footy more with no opponent. Really surprised he is geting praised so highly... perhaps it was defence against the expected condemning.

I loved the fast, and often dirty, ball movement. Really puts pressure on the boys to win contests and when they do. got some really easy goals as a result.

Tex had a couple of soft mark drops but led the goal kicking in game 1 and equal led the tackles in game 2 ;)

Tippet looked okay to me.. not as good as some are saying though. He needs to spend a little more time on his feet in the contest - nearly anytime he was near the ball and the ball was on the ground, he ended up on the ground too. Not so bad for a big guy I guess.. but there were a few times he would have been in better position to be useful had he stayed on his feet.

Loving the look of sloane and jacobs. Guns both. Smith also looking great.

Shaw, Lyons, Mcyntre all impressed me as well. Love their competitiveness, hardness and good use. Could really develop into the role players we need around elite talent. (now to find more elite talent ;) )
 

A FEW GOOD MEN

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Some of the comments on here regarding Walker are laughable... Absolutely ridiculous to say he is not best 22....

The kid is only 21 years old and has played 45 games as a KPF...

Lets compare the stats off his first three seasons to the stats of the previous 4 winners of the coleman medal in their first 3 seasons:

Taylor Walker - 45 games - 2 goals per game / 1.3 behinds per game
Stats per game - 10.4 kicks / 3.3 handballs / 4.4 marks / 1.4 tackles


Jonathan Brown - 57 games - 1 goal per game / 1.5 behinds per game
Stats per game - 7.7 kicks / 4.5 handballs / 5.2 marks / 1.0 tackles

Brenden Fevola - 41 games (4 seasons) - 1.6 goals per game / 1.58 behinds
Stats per game - 6.1 kicks / 1.7 handballs / 4.4 marks / 1.0 tackles

Jack Riewoldt - 46 games - 1.3 goals per game / 0.82 behinds
Stats per game - 7.8 kicks / 3.1 handballs / 5.1 marks / 2.1 tackles

Buddy Franklin - 56 games - 2.2 goals per game / 1.5 behinds
Stats per game - 7.8 kicks / 3.9 handballs / 4.4 marks / 2.0 tackles

Also - for the record... All of the above players had there 'breakout' year in their 4th season of playing AFL footy (except Fev whose was in his 5th yr)...
Some of the ill-informed commentary about Taylor Walker stems from the fact that under an anomaly in the rules he was 17 years and 6 months when he was promoted onto our senior list in the 2007 draft. That's right, he was 4 months younger than Brad Crouch when he was "drafted" in last years draft and 16 months younger than Brodie Smith when he was drafted in 2010.

If the current rules existed he would not have been permitted to play AFL in 2008 and everyone would have been happy to see Taylor's development at Norwood in 2008. We would have been delighted to see him play 45 games in his first three seasons. As indicated above, this was similar to the games played by the 4 coleman medalists in their first three seasons. He has also played more games at the same age than more than 90% of tall forwards drafted over the last 10 years.

The key problem with Taylor is his rate of improvement. He was arguably the best 18 year old key forward since Jonathan Brown or Kossie, but his rate of improvement has been slow. This will be the crunch year for Taylor, but it is crazy to write him off at this stage.
 

PykeDream

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Would have been nice to hear something official from the club about the gastro sweeping the team. Probably decided it'd be best to keep it under wraps to avoid looking like sore losers (if we had lost). Hoping that was all that was holding Walker back - though it could have been Tom Lynch's pizza!
 

Footypie32

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Sellar, Mackay, Gill and Campbell were out picks also that year and we missed out on Bryce Squibs F/S pick. I would rate that as 2/5 for us even though Sellar did show a bit for a while before becoming a list clogger.

The positives from the games, the forward movement rather than backwards/sideways till you turn it over and Stiffy looking fit and firing instead of looking rusty for 4-6 rounds.

Negative, Hendo still hearing footsteps and Tex's efforts which may be gastro related, dominates at SANFL and is yet to find the switch in the big leauge, we get patches of it.

Still only round 1 of a forgetable comp. Wins are wins though :D
I reckon thats a pretty harsh score considering the picks we had. Yes, Sellar at pick 10 was a bit of a waste, but Tippett and MacKay are 2 of our best players when fit. What would you rate a 5/5?
 

Allefgib

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retracting my comments re: tippett not being as good as same were saying.

Showed up even better on replay how good a contest he provided at CHF. V good showing and what was critical to me was not did he just clunk few rippers, he always always brought it down in front. The timing of the runners hitting his feet will improve but there were already good signs there IMO. Will not be beaten in a marking contest very often.
Tex
On the phillips bump on walker.. are people shitting me getting upset about that? He had just beaten the much chunkier (than phillips) chaplin and left him on the ground and was a fraction off balance. sheesh.
 

FR0GGY

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Would have been nice to hear something official from the club about the gastro sweeping the team. Probably decided it'd be best to keep it under wraps to avoid looking like sore losers (if we had lost). Hoping that was all that was holding Walker back - though it could have been Tom Lynch's pizza!
Sandos interview on fiveaa covered the gastro.
On the phillips bump on walker.. are people shitting me getting upset about that? He had just beaten the much chunkier (than phillips) chaplin and left him on the ground and was a fraction off balance. sheesh.
Yeah I didn't really think that it was the end of the world either, it's very easy to bump someone heavier than you, off they're of balance. I don't think Tex even fell over.

I thought tex had a couple of lazy moments but also ha some good moments. North western hff/wing where he was on the mark, Gray and someone else tried to create a spare man, tex was extremely close to spoiling it and put good pressure on them.
 

srv23

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Sandos interview on fiveaa covered the gastro.


Yeah I didn't really think that it was the end of the world either, it's very easy to bump someone heavier than you, off they're of balance. I don't think Tex even fell over.

I thought tex had a couple of lazy moments but also ha some good moments. North western hff/wing where he was on the mark, Gray and someone else tried to create a spare man, tex was extremely close to spoiling it and put good pressure on them.
Yep. From a martial arts perspective it is far easier to throw someone taller and bigger than you than someone smaller than you provided you can get them off the balance (as you need to do if you throw anyone) cause you can get below their centre of gravity. Far harder for the bigger guys to throw the smller guys and girls unless they are using pure brute strength rather than good technique and even then you're going to throw someone better with good technique rather than brute strength. As a chick I haven't played competetive footy but I can see how a smaller guy can bump a bigger guy who is off balance by getting in low below their centre of gravity (having spent a fair bit of time throwing the big guys around at training:))
 

WALL-e

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As far as Taylor Walker goes, why doesn't the club just get Wayne Carey over to teach him everything he knows ( obviously not everything, we don't need Tex rooting Van Berlos missus).

I mean if there was ever someone who used to crash a pack hard and make second efforts to go with his incredible talent, it was Carey and surely Tex would be willing to listen to such a legend as the King.

FFS, he's an ex player who has time on his hands, get him over as a part time specialist role, even if it is just to spend two hours, one day a week in the kids ear
Unfortunately Carey is unable to teach anyone anything.

He simply can't understand why other don't find it as easy as he does.

retracting my comments re: tippett not being as good as same were saying.

Showed up even better on replay how good a contest he provided at CHF. V good showing and what was critical to me was not did he just clunk few rippers, he always always brought it down in front. The timing of the runners hitting his feet will improve but there were already good signs there IMO. Will not be beaten in a marking contest very often.
Tex
On the phillips bump on walker.. are people shitting me getting upset about that? He had just beaten the much chunkier (than phillips) chaplin and left him on the ground and was a fraction off balance. sheesh.
Spot on with Tip, amazing player.

On Walker that sums up why he craps me sometimes. Such a body that he can manhandle Charlie Chaplin, but so unsure about how to use it in general play that Phillips bumps him off the ball. Just needs to go after it.
 

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Cap

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I don't recall him ever being short of second efforts when he didn't win the ball outright first time around..
that was one of his main criticisms by blightly from what I recall all about 2nd efforts.

that being said, it could have just been another excuse.
 

Marty64

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I reckon thats a pretty harsh score considering the picks we had. Yes, Sellar at pick 10 was a bit of a waste, but Tippett and MacKay are 2 of our best players when fit. What would you rate a 5/5?
Yes I am fairly harsh. 5/5 when we get 5 first 22 players from draft/rookies, I guess that makes me harsh.
 

NikkiNoo

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I don't recall him ever being short of second efforts when he didn't win the ball outright first time around..
I do Vader. I got to witness first hand at the MCG what a sh*t performance he put in with his last ever game for us. If he was outside the forward 50 he didn't care. Tex was chasing to the last line of defence on the weekend and he has done that before for us.

Modra had great use of his body to bump and push, using his lower centre of gravity to fabulous effect, but if he was in exactly the same position as Tex was with Phillips, then the outcome would have been the same. It's basic physics.
 

RocknRoll

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Yes I am fairly harsh. 5/5 when we get 5 first 22 players from draft/rookies, I guess that makes me harsh.
Completely unrealistic is more like it.
Considering only about half the squad make the best 22 then a more realistic expectation is for about half draftees to make the best 22 consistently.
Even this is off the mark as most players that are lost each year are the ones that cannot make the 22. Only about 1 in 4 draftees end up consistently making the best 22.
So 2 from 5 is quite reasonable and definitely a pass (except Sellar should never have been picked in the first place but that is another matter).
Even if by some chance the recruiters fluke 5/5 one year it might be reasonable to expect 0/5 the year later.
There are only 22 spots and only the best players end up there.
It is mathematically impossible for all draftees every year to end up in the best 22, which is what some here seem to expect as the standard.
It also neglects the varying draft strengths from one year to the next.

Cut the recruiters some slack, guys. Tippett and Mackay were great pickups.
 

Freddy Bassett

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that was one of his main criticisms by blightly from what I recall all about 2nd efforts.

that being said, it could have just been another excuse.
So it was ok for Blighty to criticise a gifted talent like Modra for not chasing but Craigy was not allowed to criticise Walker for not chasing?

(By the way, I am not aiming the question at you Cap, just thinking out aloud!)
 

cmndstab

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I don't see why we care what Modra did when talking about Walker. Walker is a very talented player but he's not even close to Tony Modra, and threre is absolutely no reason to assume Modra's success despite a lack of work ethic is any hope of carrying over to Walker.


SP - One massive difference between Walker and Modra: Walker is one of the hardest trainers out there. I know you like to paint him as a smart footballer who doesn't bother to go hard unless points are on the line, but the reality is he works as hard as anyone. He's just not particularly good at several aspects of football and can thus be exposed.

I agree that the club needs to accept that his positives are enough to outweigh the negatives, and try to find a way to best use him, but that doesn't mean that we simply ignore the negatives. Walker needs to at least put on perceived pressure - at least prevent opposition players from having as much time as they want to set things up. I believe that he put important strides into that last year and have no reason to assume he won't continue to do so (gastro aside!) He's super-fit so it shouldn't diminish his goalscoring capabilities.


Things like his bump on Phillips are a different kettle of fish. This wasn't a soft, head-ducking effort, or a lack of intensity, it was simply an attempt to beat his opponent that didn't come off. Much of Walker's ability to score goals comes from using his body at just the right time to turn contested situations into uncontested situations. He's got a big body but huge contested marks have never been his calling card, it's been about getting his opponent out of position, and then knowing instinctively where the goals are to take advantage of the situation. In Phillips' case he got it wrong, but I'm happy for him to go for it every time because he's going to get it right often enough to make it worthwhile.
 

cmndstab

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Completely unrealistic is more like it.
Considering only about half the squad make the best 22 then a more realistic expectation is for about half draftees to make the best 22 consistently.
Even this is off the mark as most players that are lost each year are the ones that cannot make the 22. Only about 1 in 4 draftees end up consistently making the best 22.
So 2 from 5 is quite reasonable and definitely a pass (except Sellar should never have been picked in the first place but that is another matter).
Even if by some chance the recruiters fluke 5/5 one year it might be reasonable to expect 0/5 the year later.
There are only 22 spots and only the best players end up there.
It is mathematically impossible for all draftees every year to end up in the best 22, which is what some here seem to expect as the standard.
It also neglects the varying draft strengths from one year to the next.

Cut the recruiters some slack, guys. Tippett and Mackay were great pickups.
I always think to break even you need 3 long-term, best 22 players per draft year. Presumably those players that are good enough take a few years to really come in an establish themselves, by which time they are 20, and then perhaps they play for another eight years on average (taking into account careers cut short by injury, etc).

So every eight years you really want to have turned over your best 22, and 3 players a year allows you to roughly break even.

In 2006 we took Tippett and Mackay, which gives us two, a touch below the break-even point. By comparison, in 2007 we took Dangerfield, Otten, Petrenko and Martin. Still question marks there but if all four happen to work out we've gone above average - if only three work out we've broken even.

Of course just how "good" the good players are is another question again. Would you rather take three AFL-caliber but unexceptional best 22 players per year, or one Ablett and nothing more? Hard question to answer.
 

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