Not sure, been so long now since I read them. With how he structures stuff I could easily see some cross over, not to mention stuff setup in WoW would obviously have to make sense or continue in any potential last book.
FTA-TV Game of Thrones - season 8
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So the final book will be a young adult novelisation then?
I think GRRM might finish WoW - maybe a 30% probability of it happening. I don't think there's a snowball's chance in Hell that he finishes the last book, before dropping off the perch.
What's really sad, is that the TV Series ending is the only ending we'll ever have...
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Knowing Martin he probably is going to introduce a bunch of new plotlines in WoW which will need a trilogy to resolve.
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Glad I didn't read the books and I do get satisfaction knowing smug book readers (99% of whom didn't read them before watching the show) had a doubly disappointing conclusion.
Be a crazy ride for those who read the first book in 1996 and saw it blow up into the biggest thing in the world many years later.
Be a crazy ride for those who read the first book in 1996 and saw it blow up into the biggest thing in the world many years later.
Apparently they did consult him and he gave them an idea of what he had planned. Execution might be quite different but the big ticket ticket items will be the same.
Bit of a BS artist really. He’s been promising it for years. As you say, given the reception he’s probably less inclined now.
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Bookmarked this post so I can read it again and again.
Knowing fans are so enraged by the crappy ending they can't even rewatch the "good" series pleases me greatly.
To invest so much and for so long, only for the producers to drag the series to a flimsy and unsatisfying conclusion while publicly denigrating their fanbase... warms my cold, dead heart. Long may the hate and vitriol continue!
And rubbish to anyone saying the show became insignificant as soon as it finished. It was a chore before it even made it that far.
Give me some Gandalf and Frodo over that verbose dwarf and incest s**t.
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Merry and Pippin are both verbose, dwarf-like in stature, and probably related. Good DAY sir!
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Anyone who has ever read a book and then seen a movie made out of it would have been half expecting a disappointing conclusion, especially as this ran ahead of the novels. Either way, no matter how much you enjoyed the show, book readers got twice the enjoyment. I loved seeing things I only ever saw in my head come to life, and I loved seeing everyone else share the trauma I did when experiencing various executions and wedding feasts.
And yes, I only read the books when I heard they were making a show based off them, but then I made sure I read them first, as books are generally the better version.
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Watched season 1 of The Expanse, read The Expanse books, then continued watching the rest of The Expanse (now up to 4 seasons). While I still enjoy watching it, knowing what'll happen and matching it to book events in my memory has diminished the fun of the TV show.
Game of Thrones the TV show was too great from the start for me to want spoilers no matter how apparently good the books were. I didn't get the appeal of doing that.
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Father Jack
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I've no desire to read The Expanse books, and I've watched the first three seasons. It's good, but not that good. The other thing about reading the GoT books was that I basically spoiler-proofed myself, and was therefore free to roam the internet without fear or trepidation. Like I said, got to enjoy the story twice.
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Season 1 was probably best for Game of Thrones discussions. Went to hell by season 3 with book readers.
Read The Leftovers before watching TV show The Leftovers. It probably affected my enjoyment of season 1 (diverges wildly after that).
I know I'm at a point where when an upcoming TV series or movie is an adaptation of a book, I deliberately don't read the book.
Read The Leftovers before watching TV show The Leftovers. It probably affected my enjoyment of season 1 (diverges wildly after that).
I know I'm at a point where when an upcoming TV series or movie is an adaptation of a book, I deliberately don't read the book.
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iBeng
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About to kick off Season 8. The controversial/contentious final season. Only six episodes, dunno how theyre gonna wrap everything up with so few episodes. I guess I'll find out soon enough.
iBeng
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Best of luck.
Dan
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The cat dies.
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No there's nothing wrong with your tv.
iBeng
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Turn up the brightness for extra quality!
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Finished season 8. Stayed up till 5am to get it all done.
My talking points....
Ever since Tyrion became Daenarys' advisor is when her juggernaut fell apart. He led down misstep after misstep, and into disaster after disaster. Varys too. Trying to soften her to not become her father only in the end made her become her father after she started seeing her rise to the claim of the iron throne slowly slip from her grasp and her war machine lose men and weaponry. Tyrion and Varys also spread the news of John being Aegon which was the final threat to her claim.
If only she didnt take Tyrion and Varys onto her staff way back ago, while she was still fending off the Masters from Slavers Bay, she wouldve taken Kings Landing during war time, so her battle not seen as a tyrannical bloodbath. She wouldve controlled the seven kingdoms before Sansa was back in Winterfell and before she couldve started her Littlefinger-inspired games to weaken Daenarys' power. And, by the time the Great War against the Night King started, coinciding with the same time John learned of his real name, she wouldve been able to march her war machine North to help stop the undead, remained on the throne thruout, and the quick love between John and her wouldve lasted, King of the North Aegon Targaryen married to Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, no claim threats, ruled together in love/harmony. She wouldve been softened by that love/marriage then happening, wouldve worked out all revealed in correct sequence. She would be a liberator not a tyrant, no bloodbath, no claim threats, fortuitous destiny the marriage to follow, etc.
But the way things unfolded instead, due to the imp and the eunuchs meddling, it all ended up contorting the perception of her, bad PR. Indeed, she wouldnt have even caused such annihilation and death in Kings Landing, she over-did it there ONLY due to the claim threats and them steering her wrong for so long, delaying her path to Kings Landing.
Also bad timing because the Lannisters were still reviled before Cersei took power, the war against them by various Houses still raging, the Iron Bank still debt owed, etc.
For so long in the show, everyone hated the Lannisters, they were despicable people, rulers, the memory still fresh with all their terrible acts. Everyone wanted revenge.
So fast forward, and Daenarys finally annihilates House Lannister, and everyone instead looks upon her as a beast. Where was the thanks from the Starks who swore revenge for what they did to Ned and the wedding massacre? Where was the hatred toward Cersei destroying her own capital with wildfire, and worse, Cersei refused to risk life and limb to help stop the undead like everyone else sacrificed. The final battle on Kings Landing and the annihilation of it, including the innocents, was deserved given they all sat back, refused to help, and let hundreds of thousands of innocents die in the North against the undead.
Lastly, the Lannisters annihilated House Targaryen when King Robert took control. Men, women and children raped and murdered, till there was only Daenarys and brother left alive. All this forgotten by the shows writing to paint Daenarys final battle as a criminal act. All she did was inspire genuine belief in everyone the entire way, wheel breaker, and the annihilation of the Lannisters welcome, all the devious things Tywin and family did to claim the throne, genocide of Targaryens, removing other houses who dared speak against them etc, all forgotten by the shows writing.
Also, Jamies turn back to Cerseis arms was another small way the show itself twisted the Lannister hatred around. Jamie just realized Cersei paid his friend to kill him and Tyrion, he also got told by her directly before leaving the North to help fight the undead, yet in the middle of the night after bedding Brienne and after war was won, he suddenly has a change of heart, rides back to resume loving his sister? The show could've also easily written it to reveal to him how Cersei had disowned her unborn baby being Jamies, and claimed it to be Uncle Ewan Grayjoys. Another treacherous move by her against Jamie when he already had turned in his heart against her. The writers steered the show off. It was happy to reveal other bits of info to characters in the show to turn events, or change people, like John-Aegon info even. There were so many such over the course of eight seasons. Mostly geared toward anti-Lannister revelations. But suddenly decided in the end to turn the story around against Daenarys, and try to paint sympathy and emotion toward the Lannisters.
The show twisted things to paint Daenarys' execution of dad and son Tarly like a criminal act, the execution of the Masters like a tyrannical trait, and thus finally, the assault on Kings Landing like a shameful act, despite the entire country wanting revenge on House Lannister for all their butchery and self-serving ways.
Sorry for repeating myself over and over, but the lasting talking point, the washup, is that the writers messed up the conclusion of the show itself. Not sure how the books end, or how it veered off at that point when the show kept going beyond where the books at the time had stopped. But i will be curious to now research exactly how the writer of the books saw the story go instead in his own head.
Also, too much of season 8 was spent kind of breaking the fourth wall. Too self-conscious of giving the fans send-offs with various characters, by having too many long drawn out scenes, with emotional music, slow motion, etc, to send them off, to create events the fans probably had communicated at the time....like seeing Jamie abd Brienne *, Arya and Gendy *, Leon getting hugged by various Stark family members, etc etc Season 8 spent too much time being self-conscious and sending itself off, and bending to the wishes of the fans, it seems, instead of writing a proper and satisfactory and challenging conclusion
To me it all seemed like the entire concept from the writers mind, intention, was that Daenarys was destined to claim back the kingdoms, a true ruler, not a tyrant, so slowly but surely building herself and her army for that final moment when the evil empire is destroyed and a new period of peace and prosperity emerges under her rule, and alongside the newly discovered Aegon Targaryen by her side in wedlock. King of the North in alliance with the Iron Throne, Targaryen dominance. Lannisters and their kin cleansed from the world. Perhaps some other new threat would emerge in the book world, when the writer felt like the keeping the story and books sales going. Seems to me like the showrunners had to come up with their own story when the books stooped at the time, and then messed it all up when deciding how to end it, rushed it too, but essentially deceived and made a lie of the intended direction of the story and concept. Concluded it wrongly.
Its like how George Lucas ended Star Wars 1-6, then a new story-group took control and concluded that whole Skywalker Saga in 7-9 very poorly and differently to where it was intended to go, etc
Still love GoT, fantastic stuff, but Benioff and Weiss ****ed it up in the end.
My talking points....
Ever since Tyrion became Daenarys' advisor is when her juggernaut fell apart. He led down misstep after misstep, and into disaster after disaster. Varys too. Trying to soften her to not become her father only in the end made her become her father after she started seeing her rise to the claim of the iron throne slowly slip from her grasp and her war machine lose men and weaponry. Tyrion and Varys also spread the news of John being Aegon which was the final threat to her claim.
If only she didnt take Tyrion and Varys onto her staff way back ago, while she was still fending off the Masters from Slavers Bay, she wouldve taken Kings Landing during war time, so her battle not seen as a tyrannical bloodbath. She wouldve controlled the seven kingdoms before Sansa was back in Winterfell and before she couldve started her Littlefinger-inspired games to weaken Daenarys' power. And, by the time the Great War against the Night King started, coinciding with the same time John learned of his real name, she wouldve been able to march her war machine North to help stop the undead, remained on the throne thruout, and the quick love between John and her wouldve lasted, King of the North Aegon Targaryen married to Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, no claim threats, ruled together in love/harmony. She wouldve been softened by that love/marriage then happening, wouldve worked out all revealed in correct sequence. She would be a liberator not a tyrant, no bloodbath, no claim threats, fortuitous destiny the marriage to follow, etc.
But the way things unfolded instead, due to the imp and the eunuchs meddling, it all ended up contorting the perception of her, bad PR. Indeed, she wouldnt have even caused such annihilation and death in Kings Landing, she over-did it there ONLY due to the claim threats and them steering her wrong for so long, delaying her path to Kings Landing.
Also bad timing because the Lannisters were still reviled before Cersei took power, the war against them by various Houses still raging, the Iron Bank still debt owed, etc.
For so long in the show, everyone hated the Lannisters, they were despicable people, rulers, the memory still fresh with all their terrible acts. Everyone wanted revenge.
So fast forward, and Daenarys finally annihilates House Lannister, and everyone instead looks upon her as a beast. Where was the thanks from the Starks who swore revenge for what they did to Ned and the wedding massacre? Where was the hatred toward Cersei destroying her own capital with wildfire, and worse, Cersei refused to risk life and limb to help stop the undead like everyone else sacrificed. The final battle on Kings Landing and the annihilation of it, including the innocents, was deserved given they all sat back, refused to help, and let hundreds of thousands of innocents die in the North against the undead.
Lastly, the Lannisters annihilated House Targaryen when King Robert took control. Men, women and children raped and murdered, till there was only Daenarys and brother left alive. All this forgotten by the shows writing to paint Daenarys final battle as a criminal act. All she did was inspire genuine belief in everyone the entire way, wheel breaker, and the annihilation of the Lannisters welcome, all the devious things Tywin and family did to claim the throne, genocide of Targaryens, removing other houses who dared speak against them etc, all forgotten by the shows writing.
Also, Jamies turn back to Cerseis arms was another small way the show itself twisted the Lannister hatred around. Jamie just realized Cersei paid his friend to kill him and Tyrion, he also got told by her directly before leaving the North to help fight the undead, yet in the middle of the night after bedding Brienne and after war was won, he suddenly has a change of heart, rides back to resume loving his sister? The show could've also easily written it to reveal to him how Cersei had disowned her unborn baby being Jamies, and claimed it to be Uncle Ewan Grayjoys. Another treacherous move by her against Jamie when he already had turned in his heart against her. The writers steered the show off. It was happy to reveal other bits of info to characters in the show to turn events, or change people, like John-Aegon info even. There were so many such over the course of eight seasons. Mostly geared toward anti-Lannister revelations. But suddenly decided in the end to turn the story around against Daenarys, and try to paint sympathy and emotion toward the Lannisters.
The show twisted things to paint Daenarys' execution of dad and son Tarly like a criminal act, the execution of the Masters like a tyrannical trait, and thus finally, the assault on Kings Landing like a shameful act, despite the entire country wanting revenge on House Lannister for all their butchery and self-serving ways.
Sorry for repeating myself over and over, but the lasting talking point, the washup, is that the writers messed up the conclusion of the show itself. Not sure how the books end, or how it veered off at that point when the show kept going beyond where the books at the time had stopped. But i will be curious to now research exactly how the writer of the books saw the story go instead in his own head.
Also, too much of season 8 was spent kind of breaking the fourth wall. Too self-conscious of giving the fans send-offs with various characters, by having too many long drawn out scenes, with emotional music, slow motion, etc, to send them off, to create events the fans probably had communicated at the time....like seeing Jamie abd Brienne *, Arya and Gendy *, Leon getting hugged by various Stark family members, etc etc Season 8 spent too much time being self-conscious and sending itself off, and bending to the wishes of the fans, it seems, instead of writing a proper and satisfactory and challenging conclusion
To me it all seemed like the entire concept from the writers mind, intention, was that Daenarys was destined to claim back the kingdoms, a true ruler, not a tyrant, so slowly but surely building herself and her army for that final moment when the evil empire is destroyed and a new period of peace and prosperity emerges under her rule, and alongside the newly discovered Aegon Targaryen by her side in wedlock. King of the North in alliance with the Iron Throne, Targaryen dominance. Lannisters and their kin cleansed from the world. Perhaps some other new threat would emerge in the book world, when the writer felt like the keeping the story and books sales going. Seems to me like the showrunners had to come up with their own story when the books stooped at the time, and then messed it all up when deciding how to end it, rushed it too, but essentially deceived and made a lie of the intended direction of the story and concept. Concluded it wrongly.
Its like how George Lucas ended Star Wars 1-6, then a new story-group took control and concluded that whole Skywalker Saga in 7-9 very poorly and differently to where it was intended to go, etc
Still love GoT, fantastic stuff, but Benioff and Weiss ****ed it up in the end.
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Bad final seasons and/or final episodes of great long-running shows is a thing. GoT joins that list.
Yep, excellent summary. If we were still awaiting Season 8 to appear, I would comfortably have GoT as possibly the greatest TV drama ever made, maybe even superior to Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Mad Men etc. What transpired of Season 8 has left such a bad taste in my mouth that I'm struggling to even watch re-runs of the brilliant earlier seasons.
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Yep, i lived it now too. Now i understand. I woke up this afternoon (after that long binge viewing session) and i felt so sad, like someone had died, some tragic event in the world happened, the real world was different in some way, loss of appetite, not wanting to go out and do stuff today, no motivation, sadness, something beautiful ruined. Thats how i feel. Same how i felt when Disney ruined Star Wars with the Sequel Trilogy. Killed my love of something, killed ones childhood. Similar feeling today with this. For weeks now id been in love with GoT, binge watching night after night, thinking about the story and characters while at work and in the real life, and then season 8 killed it. You all know the feeling, happens in life all the time, a relationship or friendship, or series of events, you get swept along, invested emotionally even spiritually, changes aspects of your personality as you find affinity in people, characters, ideas....and then some careless, reckless, or malicious turn happens and the love/affinity is ruined, the world goes dark
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Fandom would disagree wholeheartedly with this sentiment. There has been fan petitions to have the season re-done with a better storyline.
All concepts seem to have gone out the window. I mean, why do we spend seasons finding out about Jon's parentage.. it is literally opened up as a storyline int the first episode and is covered throughout the whole series - shrouded in secrecy only for it to fizz out to absolutely nothing?
I understand that both George and the showrunners had always implied to not expect a happy ending to the story, but it just seems to me and many that the way it wrapped up even if it was supposed to be sombre or not a fairytale, was still done in a way that was unsatisfactory.
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I meant during seasons 1-7, there were probably emerging storylines that fans wished for and communicated, seeing Jamie and Brienne fall in love etc. During the show, whilst the show was still being filmed, certain fan wishes, shipping two particular people together etc. So when season 8 cane around they made a bunch of those things happen, when they shouldnt have. Part of the "show sending itself off" aspect that ruined season 8, long drawn out emotional scenes of hugging, characters getting shipped together etc.
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The showrunners completely ****ed it up. No bones about that. Johns parentage was just one detail. There were so many other threads in the show that were either neglected or twisted and contorted around that ruined the entire build up, or worse, the very concept of the over-arching story and intended paths that the book writer had set up.
