Analysis Gameplan

[DarkSaint]

I've stayed away from posting the last day or so because that was one of the worst performances I have ever seen. Even when we were getting done by 100+ points I wasn't as dissapointed in the club as a whole than what we dished up.

Anyways moving on from that I just wanted to get some peoples thoughts on what you think our actual game plan is. I watch about 5 or 6 games a week and every team you can actually see what they are doing and the gameplan that they are trying to execute. I still can't work out what our game plan is because as it stands this season it's just get the ball and kick it as deep as you can inside the forward 50. This has been evident over the JLT series and also the first 2 rounds.

I'm not sure what they have been working on over the off season because kicking it long is NOT a game plan and applying pressure SHOULD be a non negotiable and again isn't a game plan. Throught these 2 games I can count on one hand how many times we have hit up a leading target inside the forward 50. All we do is bomb the living day lights out of it without even looking. At one point it was jack steven resting forward and we kept on going long to him even though he was up against tarrant/thompson. I'm starting to think that we have some really dumb footballers in our side when it comes to footy IQ (Webster,Longer,Stevens,Bruce etc). We need to have some major changes to the way we actually play because right now we have a hard time break other teams down when we have the ball and continually get choked by the opposition from kick in a etc. There is nothing that is in place to try and break down a teams some rather just kick it long down the line etc.

 

[Human Person]

#TankinForRankine

 

[Hubnester]

I don't think our boys have particularly low footy IQ or anything, I think they've just been over coached the point of the losing their instinct to play.

Lost count how many times this weekend we instinctively handballed after a mark or a free, to a person nearby who was disadvantaged or under pressure.
Plus the constant blind kicks into the forward line. It was actually incredible how many times the ball went directly to an opponent and not even to a contest, it was we like we were hitting them up deliberately. It's almost as if they watched a tape and said 'yep, they'll play on here, just get right in close' or 'yep, they'll kick it to this spot every time so just sit there."

Our plan works sometimes. Sometimes you need a plan B. But it seems like the players don't have the authority to say 'following the plan to the letter right now would not be the best option'. I also think our structures and layout on the field are poor.

 

[austinnn]

I don't know much about footy tactics so I'm in this thread to learn not teach, but from my perspective from watching on TV, I'd agree that the plan seems to be kind of bomb it forward hoping someone upfield can create a contest and their teammate can crumb from the spill and repeat bombing til we get within range.

We occasionally try the fast short handball drills between 3 or 4 players when our original kick based disposals inevitably get blocked spilled or just miss their targets. This is the mode where commentators claim we are 'irresistible' and it does usually readily in at least an inside 50.

Since last year, generally the go with us seems to be have a pop at goal whenever you can, even if the chances are slim (which worked great when we had such a strong defensive forward set up that we usually got the ball back from opposition kick ins and goaled, a la Pies of 2009-10). This year after so many failed shots on goal last year, the goalkicking coach's focus is getting the forwards to get in better positions (rather than get better at goalkicking from different angles, as I would have assumed they'd do).

Globally, it's no secret that we base our plan on effort rather than skill, intelligence or height. We play on at all costs and have fairly predictable movement patterns from kick in and half back and switching across the ground at centre.

But there's plenty of nuances I'm not seeing. So I'll be reading this thread with much interest, hoping for earnest replies rather than sarcastic sniping.

 

[Hubnester]

This year after so many failed shots on goal last year, the goalkicking coach's focus is getting the forwards to get in better positions (rather than get better at goalkicking from different angles, as I would have assumed they'd do).

I don't know that this is true. I'm pretty sure our forwards were already getting the ball in really good positions, they just weren't converting either from being exhausted from their commitments up-field or from poor kicking action. I'm sure our goal kicking coach will focus solely on goal kicking as our 'forward coach' still has their plan.

 

[JG22]

I don't think our boys have particularly low footy IQ or anything, I think they've just been over coached the point of the losing their instinct to play.

Lost count how many times this weekend we instinctively handballed after a mark or a free, to a person nearby who was disadvantaged or under pressure.
Plus the constant blind kicks into the forward line. It was actually incredible how many times the ball went directly to an opponent and not even to a contest, it was we like we were hitting them up deliberately. It's almost as if they watched a tape and said 'yep, they'll play on here, just get right in close' or 'yep, they'll kick it to this spot every time so just sit there."

Our plan works sometimes. Sometimes you need a plan B. But it seems like the players don't have the authority to say 'following the plan to the letter right now would not be the best option'. I also think our structures and layout on the field are poor.

Fair point on the instinct thing.

Last year Dunstan said he got back to his best by just playing on natural instinct after seeing a psych, was clearly head*ed by the whole gameplan and tactics

 

[plugger66]

I have no idea about game plan. They all look similar to me but some teams have better players and some don’t. What I do know like nearly every side we try and get it forward quickly. That works when you have a combination of good talls and small. We only have the smalls so it isn’t going to work. Also those wanting some of those smalls to run through the midfield more often will see it work even worse. Time to bite the bullet and drop a marking player and see if that works better


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[longlivelenny]

I am far from a tactical football person but i feel like our plan breaks down in 2 areas
1 is transition from back to forward 50, we just cannot get out of the back 50 (particularly the behind kick ins)
2 is the defence structure breakdown across our forward 50.
We often seem to get broken down on rebound with the opposition team having multiple open players through the middle and in their forward 50. This is backed up by stats in that we concede the most forward 50 marks in the comp and we get scored against the most per inside 50.
Both worrying signs

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[Stewart66]

I don't know much about footy tactics so I'm in this thread to learn not teach, but from my perspective from watching on TV, I'd agree that the plan seems to be kind of bomb it forward hoping someone upfield can create a contest and their teammate can crumb from the spill and repeat bombing til we get within range.

We occasionally try the fast short handball drills between 3 or 4 players when our original kick based disposals inevitably get blocked spilled or just miss their targets. This is the mode where commentators claim we are 'irresistible' and it does usually readily in at least an inside 50.

Since last year, generally the go with us seems to be have a pop at goal whenever you can, even if the chances are slim (which worked great when we had such a strong defensive forward set up that we usually got the ball back from opposition kick ins and goaled, a la Pies of 2009-10). This year after so many failed shots on goal last year, the goalkicking coach's focus is getting the forwards to get in better positions (rather than get better at goalkicking from different angles, as I would have assumed they'd do).

Globally, it's no secret that we base our plan on effort rather than skill, intelligence or height. We play on at all costs and have fairly predictable movement patterns from kick in and half back and switching across the ground at centre.

But there's plenty of nuances I'm not seeing. So I'll be reading this thread with much interest, hoping for earnest replies rather than sarcastic sniping.

Yes the tactics are to move the ball fast , kick the ball high & deep to enable players to the force turnover
when we tackle & pressure the other way kicking goals from close in.
The problem is the opposition know it & we handball continually to a bloke who is covered , who hacks the
ball to opposition outnumber behind the ball.

All our forwards go to the same spot when high ball comes in .. hence the lack of marks in our 50.

Compared to a team that switched the ball diagonally through the corridor , because of footskills turned the
ball over and were scored against.

 

[hayes]

I'm no gameplan expert but going by what I've seen and some of the things Richo has said this is my best guess.

Play it safe coming out of the backline because if we turn it over there it's almost a guaranteed goal. Avoid the corridor at all costs.

Bomb the ball into the forward 50 to just get it in there because according to champion data you're more likely to score from re-entry than your initial entry. Only problem with that is we can't lock it in because we're playing three talls and only one of the smalls has any pace.

I liked the way we we playing up until last year when we looked to want to be a kicking side that wanted to hit targets but for some reason there was a change to become a high handballing side (third in the league last year) that bombs it in long. Clearly there needs to be a change.

 

[gringo2011]

I'm no gameplan expert but going by what I've seen and some of the things Richo has said this is my best guess.

Play it safe coming out of the backline because if we turn it over there it's almost a guaranteed goal. Avoid the corridor at all costs.

Bomb the ball into the forward 50 to just get it in there because according to champion data you're more likely to score from re-entry than your initial entry. Only problem with that is we can't lock it in because we're playing three talls and only one of the smalls has any pace.

I liked the way we we playing up until last year when we looked to want to be a kicking side that wanted to hit targets but for some reason there was a change to become a high handballing side (third in the league last year) that bombs it in long. Clearly there needs to be a change.

We played our most promising style when we first moved to a run and gun flick around game IMO. Essendon and Richmond took it up and the Dogs won a premiership with it. It got worked out and now we have tried to change up. Unfortunately we aren’t a high skilled side so kicking game plans aren’t our thing.

 

[BigMonty]

I'm no gameplan expert but going by what I've seen and some of the things Richo has said this is my best guess.

Play it safe coming out of the backline because if we turn it over there it's almost a guaranteed goal. Avoid the corridor at all costs.

Bomb the ball into the forward 50 to just get it in there because according to champion data you're more likely to score from re-entry than your initial entry. Only problem with that is we can't lock it in because we're playing three talls and only one of the smalls has any pace.

I liked the way we we playing up until last year when we looked to want to be a kicking side that wanted to hit targets but for some reason there was a change to become a high handballing side (third in the league last year) that bombs it in long. Clearly there needs to be a change.

There is an 80 m egg shaped zone from where the ball is that you need to defend. Run 15m handball next player run 15m kick 50m.
We have and continue to try to get the 45 deg kick back into the corridor handball to running player long 50m kick to one on one tall forward. Hence bomb it to the big blokes criticism. However it looks good when Membrey outmarks opportunity 20m in front.

To counter this the opposition play 1 or 2 behind the ball. By definition we should have 1 or 2 loose in the mid field. Number of times we swept forward and rather than keep posession by handball and kick at goal from 50 we bomb and look terrible. Once against NM Webster hit Jack Stevens lace out looked great need to do that more.
Where was Bruce and McCartin up on wing in case we need to go down the line if 45 deg kick is not open. North beat us because
1. They beat us with first hands on ball at ruck contest so did Lions.
2. Our disposal was deplorable giving them back possession.
3. We did not work hard enough through the mid field.
4. Regularly had 3 or 4 in back line extra would get ball and then coughed up as we were outnumbered up the field hence turnover.
5. Could not change as players on field could not adjust and stopped working as a team as we think we are better than we are. Lessons WILL BE LEARNED FROM NORTH game.
Think we will see a more blue collar Saints outfit next week.

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[Saintos The ITK]

I think vision of Armo clearing the center ball focusing directly on his own foot without ever at any time looking up kind of sums it all up.
Just boot the crap out of the ball and hope it lands near one of your team mates.
We gotta be better than that.

 

[Saint Watto]

I liked the way we we playing up until last year when we looked to want to be a kicking side that wanted to hit targets but for some reason there was a change to become a high handballing side (third in the league last year) that bombs it in long. Clearly there needs to be a change.

I too am no gameplan expert or tactics expert.....I get all that insight from a lot of you posters......but things did seem to change from 2016 into 2017.

It's alarming that our gameplan is being severely questioned after only Round 2......it also was being queried for a fair chunk of last year.

It'll be very interesting to see what transpires over the next month.

 

[Marching]

Kicking long to a contest, or bombing, is a symptom of the gameplay breaking down up the ground. It’s not the intent of the coaches or players. It happens when the oppo is putting heavy pressure on the ball carrier, we’re not running in numbers (effort) or oppo have flooded back and with little options the bomb becomes the best choice.
Our transition from back to forward is quick and aggressive and relies on effort and excellent execution of skills.
I’m hoping that the scrappy early season skills are hurting our ability to execute the plan. Something that we will be able to rectify.
When it works it’s sublime - ref tigers game.

The way I see it - our plan is to play on fast, Give the corridor priority, favour kick over handball (high oppo pressure flips this mix) and have an aggressive back line that isn’t afraid to leave their man in transition.
When this plan fails we get burnt badly because it’s aggressive and attacking hence easy to open us up on rebound. You would’ve heard the conmentators commenting that north could raffle the options on rebound there were that many.

Skills critical.

If I’m Richo and I’m thinking about changes in personnel this week I’d look at two things - 1. Effort 2. Disposal efficiency

Mav and Gilbo bring 1 but not 2.
Coff brings 2 but doesn’t have the tank yet to fully deliver the required four qtr effort.

Lonie and Dunstan bring 1 and 2.
White falls down on 1.

Also - bringing back Arno has caused a shuffle that now has Steele and Sincs playing out of the positions they were building a great body of work in.

We will bounce back. It’s a matter of time.

I am so off our supporters right now. The North game is the only game in the past 2 years of home and away games where we’ve dropped a game we were expected to win. Seriously...it’s tough to watch of course but iwinning a premiership is not a formula and rebuild to flag is not a 7-10year guarantee. Give them a break. They are literally doing everything they possibly can...

 

[VDS66]

It has been mentioned by Richo that we are using a different defensive set up, instigated by Playfair.

So even that needs to be given time.

Clearance work is a concern.

As Marching just mentioned, it we got that wrong, it's a domino effect up the ground.

 

[St Kilda Death]

We are too cautious and afraid of turnovers is defence.
This leads to overuse in the backline, takes us too long to get fwd, by the time we get to the wing the Oppo have set up their defence, blocking leads and we just bomb.
Need to take more chances R50.

 

[Nutsngum]

We are too cautious and afraid of turnovers is defence.
This leads to overuse in the backline, takes us too long to get fwd, by the time we get to the wing the Oppo have set up their defence, blocking leads and we just bomb.
Need to take more chances R50.

One thing Ive noticed is when this happens we are less likely to switch the ball at the moment. I think weve gone from an overdependence on switching to open up the midfield to not utlizing it enough. This could probably come down to a brand new defensive coach who is still trying to get the boys playing a specific way. If you read Rooey's book he talks about how it took a good while before they got used to Lyon's gameplan.

 

[Saint_Matt]

I have no idea about game plan. They all look similar to me but some teams have better players and some don’t. What I do know like nearly every side we try and get it forward quickly. That works when you have a combination of good talls and small. We only have the smalls so it isn’t going to work. Also those wanting some of those smalls to run through the midfield more often will see it work even worse. Time to bite the bullet and drop a marking player and see if that works better


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I agree that our forward line is both too small and too tall, if that makes sense. None of Paddy, Bruce or Membrey are truly tall and they are getting outmarked too easily and not putting enough pressure on. We either need to drop one and get another small who puts on pressure and go with a fast, high pressure set up or we need to get a genuinely tall forward who can take a few grabs or bring it to ground.

Paddy, Bruce and Members look great on the lead, but how many times are we kicking to a lead? I might be not watching properly, but I rarely see much leading happening from those three. Am I wrong?

 

[plugger66]

I agree that our forward line is both too small and too tall, if that makes sense. None of Paddy, Bruce or Membrey are truly tall and they are getting outmarked too easily and not putting enough pressure on. We either need to drop one and get another small who puts on pressure and go with a fast, high pressure set up or we need to get a genuinely tall forward who can take a few grabs or bring it to ground.

Paddy, Bruce and Members look great on the lead, but how many times are we kicking to a lead? I might be not watching properly, but I rarely see much leading happening from those three. Am I wrong?

It is a lot harder to lead these days because of lack of room. You need good kicks around the ground so they can more it quickly then you can find someone on the lead. We haven't got good kicks or pace around the ground to we have to bomb but then again most sides do bomb it but also use players on the lead because they kick better than us or have some outside pace in the side.

 

[Saint Watto]

I am so off our supporters right now. The North game is the only game in the past 2 years of home and away games where we’ve dropped a game we were expected to win. Seriously...it’s tough to watch of course but iwinning a premiership is not a formula and rebuild to flag is not a 7-10year guarantee. Give them a break. They are literally doing everything they possibly can...

A very good,calm and measured post there Marching.

Re dropping a game we were expected to win.....I was wondering about that stat leaving the ground....when did that last happen I thought........reckon it was against the Suns up north in 2016....the week after we had that stirring win against the Cats.

And with the supporters.....I can understand the meltdown...we lost 6 of our last 8 last season............some "big statements" coming out of the club this pre season....a lack lustre pre season.....an ok win against Bris and then a very bad loss against this years perceived wooden spooners.

After the above....everyone would have been pressing the big red panic button.

I've always thought and you also stated...there's absolutely no guarantees with a rebuild......or with anything in life for that matter.

All we can do is hang in there for the ride and see what happens.....it's pretty much out of us supporters hands.

 

[StCicatriz]

there's a game plan?

 

[VDS66]

A very good,calm and measured post there Marching.

Re dropping a game we were expected to win.....I was wondering about that stat leaving the ground....when did that last happen I thought........reckon it was against the Suns up north in 2016....the week after we had that stirring win against the Cats.

And with the supporters.....I can understand the meltdown...we lost 6 of our last 8 last season............some "big statements" coming out of the club this pre season....a lack lustre pre season.....an ok win against Bris and then a very bad loss against this years perceived wooden spooners.

After the above....everyone would have been pressing the big red panic button.

I've always thought and you also stated...there's absolutely no guarantees with a rebuild......or with anything in life for that matter.

All we can do is hang in there for the ride and see what happens.....it's pretty much out of us supporters hands.

Mate, over the last 2 years we have won more games than we lost.

Are we improving or not? Sadly you won't know until mid season at the earliest.

If we were playing Adelaide the reaction would have been different. But we were expected to win both internally and externally.

Still, a collective handful cannot control their emotions - which they are entitled to do.

Sadly, you can't fix stupid.

 

[StCicatriz]

Mate, over the last 2 years we have won more games than we lost.

Are we improving or not? Sadly you won't know until mid season at the earliest.

If we were playing Adelaide the reaction would have been different. But we were expected to win both internally and externally.

Still, a collective handful cannot control their emotions - which they are entitled to do.

Sadly, you can't fix stupid.

well we actually went backwards on ladder position last year and won one less game. % improved though and i think the overall the improvement was there. less blow outs etc.

but i dont think the rate of progression isnt where it needs to be. sides have this big jump into finals, much earlier than what we have had/we are yet to get it. the signs are there of a side that has stagnated.

 

[triggering bro]

Game plan is the wrong terminology & likely the cause of plugger picking apart the argument. It’s more the fact that 1. We are not implementing the plan/do not have the players to carry out the plan; & 2. Rigid structures/lack of tactical moves during game.

Richo has an emphasis on winning the contested footy, that’s plainly obvious, he talks about it non-stop: “Effort”, “win the contest”, etc.

Winning the contested footy is so engrained in our players DNA it’s like they’ve forgotten about other important facets of the game.

Our players constantly get sucked into the contest in an attempt to win the footy. It’s why we see so many 1-2 metre handballs to stationary team mates rather than release handballs to teammates in space. It’s why we kick to neutral contests or even worse out numbered contests in our forward line. It’s why we get torched on the turnover because our midfield is sucked in to the contest leaving free opposition players in space constantly. It’s actually like watching a game of school footy with everyone chasing after the footy & zero structure.

As a comparison, watch teams like Hawthorn, Adelaide or even Carlton (Bolton ex Clarkson understudy). They hold their zone together & are extremely disciplined in doing so.

We don’t have a Dusty Martin to break open a game & go rogue for the benefit of the team so it’s important that we maintain some kind of structure. I think our structures break down more so than just about any team. It’s chaotic to watch & farcical when you see it happening & the opposition get on a role without a response from our coaches box. We could at least put more numbers behind the ball to stop the bleeding.

If we are talking pure gameplans then there are two obvious versions & have been for sometime.
1. Zone defence, which is pretty much the standard these days; &
2. Man on man, which the Swans currently employee & it’s part of their mantra.

Both work to a degree if executed correctly. You’ll notice that Horse & RTB transition during games between the two versions depending on how the game is tracking.

Richo favours having a zone setup but for obvious reasons a zone structure is far more difficult to execute, maintain, teach & can be exploited. Man on man is old school stuff....get a man when you don’t have the footy....get free when you do have the footy.

I suspect we don’t have the cattle to execute & maintain the type of footy Richo wants us to play. I also suspect the delivery of the message on how to play is flawed...our structure just gets broken down & exploited far too easily for it not to be.

Our current setup is chaotic to say the least. But Richmond & the Dogs won premierships playing a chaotic brand of footy. But horse for courses. I don’t believe we have the type of players required to play that brand. We should be setting up like Hawthorn & Adelaide.

The big issue I have with Richo is that I don’t believe he is a good match day coach. He lacks a tactical mind to anticipate things occurring in games. He lacks mental agility to make moves. He basically relies on the players executing the game plan/set structures to a tee, & if they don’t, the coach cannot be relied upon to make a few positional/structural moves to influence the game. You do not often see Richo place a hard tag on an opposition player throughout the game. Sure, he may plan for a hard tag such as Ross going to Dangerfield. But what if some other bloke is off the chain? Rarely do we see Richo make a change once the first ball is bounced. Numbers behind the ball...rarely see it...Billings getting tagged out of the game. Why don’t we put him behind the ball? Getting killed out of the middle. Let’s throw in the GOAT. Mental agility, richo lacks imho.