Analysis Gameplan

[El HOSS]

So I picked a good time to start reading again after deciding to stay away for a few months!

Having been to both games and after watching both on replay (yes I am a sucker for punishment), and giving it a few days to get over the emotional response, I did want to deliver one whack.

Not so much about the zone defence and structure we are employing, but who is where in this structure.

Take our kick ins on Friday. I lost count of the number of situations where this (or a variation of this) happened.

Brown is the option in the pocket, Carlisle is hovering about 25-35 out. Two of Paddy and or Membery are up on the wing at least two kicks away. One of Bruce or Longer is about 50 out as an option on one side of the ground and the other appears to be on the bench. Now the payers positioning might have some variation on this each time, but the point that I am making is that as we transition out of defence, one side of the ground (about 50m from the kicker) is left with no St.Kilda KPP.

One of Geary, Roberton or Savage then proceeds to bomb long from defensive 50 to the side with no KPP targeting someone such as Sincs, Billings, Gresh or Newnes (often against two or three opposition big men). No switch, no look backwards, just bombs it on top of our short (by comparison) players head who gets either outmarked or outworked in the contest. No big man close enough to impact the contest. Unsurprisingly it comes screaming back in at 100 miles an hour.

I don't understand this. I know there are questions of workrate and the impact of some of our big men around the ground. But it happened too many times to solely come down to work rate and bad decision making.

I realise we have bigger issues than this. But there was something fundamentally broken with our onfield structure when transitioning out of defence on Friday. And most importantly, neither our coaches or onfield leaders were able to fix it on the fly. Right there I think we just got a huge wakeup call to some of the work Joey / Roo / Gilbo / Fisher / Lenny did off the ball.

So for my whack I am not going after some kid who has played 20 odd games and looked to have no confidence and no licence to play on instinct. Instead my whack is for Richo, Kingsley, Geary and Brown who should have the experience to correct a structural flaw coming out of defence during the two hours we watched repeat entry after repeat entry.

Unfortunately my solutions involve throwing bags of cash at Sloane, or implementing a Grant Thomas style leadership development program (which produced up to 5 players capable of captaining the club at any one time). Sadly neither option would fix the problem for next week.

Pretty much every week for the last 20 years, St.Kilda has run out with at least one of Harvey, Hamill, Lenny or Roo to lead the way with players actions, structures and efforts on the field (especially when things are going really bad). So I guess I just needed to vent after having it hit home what no truly great onfield leader means for St.Kilda when things start going wrong

I also found the lack of options from our kickins so infuriating. You see a side like Adelaide take a kickin, their designated kicker will look to the open side first. They'll only go long as the very last resort. On Friday Robbo was motioning for every player to get to the congested side before he even had the ball in hand. It was insane. It was so predictable and pathetic that I could barely watch it. My view is that it's a reflection of Robbo and poor coaching. Robbo as the sole defensive architect is a massive problem for us. I don't think he has the footy IQ to change tacts during games. The lack of Montagna is showing. I think we need White or Rice to get in their and provide another outlet. Without another nice kick Robbo gets locked down and we're finished. Brown can't kick. Geary can't kick. Webster can and has a licence to try high risk kicks but his footy IQ and decision making are so poor.

 

[Sainttony]

The game plan is so abysmally ineffective that it actually hurts to watch.

Our losses look terrible, our wins are grinds.

As every week passes it becomes more and more clear that the Richmond win was an aberration.

Beyond the very serious concerns with Richo, I seriously doubt whether this team has the competitive zeal to succeed.

I’ve been saying this for quite a while. There is no one on our list that seems to have that competitive edge. We don’t have a Voss, Goddard ( well we do but you know what I mean) Hayes, Brereton competitive beast that refuses to loose.

We have drafted nice kids who will work hard but have they got that edge that sets them apart. Paddy is a typical example talented but does not seem to have that ruthless never loose commitment to his play.

We need to find someone like this as they often bring the others along with him.


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[Saintos The ITK]

I also found the lack of options from our kickins so infuriating. You see a side like Adelaide take a kickin, their designated kicker will look to the open side first. They'll only go long as the very last resort. On Friday Robbo was motioning for every player to get to the congested side before he even had the ball in hand. It was insane. It was so predictable and pathetic that I could barely watch it. My view is that it's a reflection of Robbo and poor coaching. Robbo as the sole defensive architect is a massive problem for us. I don't think he has the footy IQ to change tacts during games. The lack of Montagna is showing. I think we need White or Rice to get in their and provide another outlet. Without another nice kick Robbo gets locked down and we're finished. Brown can't kick. Geary can't kick. Webster can and has a licence to try high risk kicks but his footy IQ and decision making are so poor.

I think you're on the money there. Our much vaunted back six need a massive shake up. I'd keep Jake, Robo and Geary, but only because he's captain, and that's another story, and bring in White, Coff, and Austin or Claravino.

 

[plugger66]

Game plan isn’t the issue it’s the personnel. To many similar players with the same faults. They can’t forward and they are or probably even worse the marking aren’t that good and can’t pressure out of the forward line. Also if Robbo is playing poorly then the backline lacks run. Savage can run but he can’t defend. Robbo can do both when in form. Then we rucks who have not one bit of influence around the ground. There is never a bail option to longer like there is to most rucks. And finally those who brought up leadership are totally correct. Easy now but I laugh at those who said Joey and roo moving on could be the making of us.

I see richo main problem as his stubbornness of the top of player he wants in the side and most likely has wanted to recruit. That to me has much more effect than game plan issues as most sides really do play similar


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[triggering bro]

Game plan isn’t the issue it’s the personnel. To many similar players with the same faults. They can’t forward and they are or probably even worse the marking aren’t that good and can’t pressure out of the forward line. Also if Robbo is playing poorly then the backline lacks run. Savage can run but he can’t defend. Robbo can do both when in form. Then we rucks who have not one bit of influence around the ground. There is never a bail option to longer like there is to most rucks. And finally those who brought up leadership are totally correct. Easy now but I laugh at those who said Joey and roo moving on could be the making of us.

I see richo main problem as his stubbornness of the top of player he wants in the side and most likely has wanted to recruit. That to me has much more effect than game plan issues as most sides really do play similar


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Armo & Stevens are in the team to win the hard footy. If they are not fulfilling that role then their spots in the 22 become redundant. They had 7 & 2 contested possessions vs North.

Brown, Longer & Paddy are not suited to modern footy. All too slow & not agile enough.

We should be looking to move those 5 out of the 22. I realise this can’t happen all in one week but we need to look at doing it by years end.

 

[Saintbloke]

Basically in the last 5 years or so, we have built a cr#p list with a bunch of plodders as the midfield, and the type of midfield which will not win a premiership, and a coach who doesn't seem to have a clue how best to use what he has at hand. Seems like the the president and board have sat on their hands and let the football dept run wild with no definite plan or strong leadership.

When the more experienced players who have been on the list for a few years now- let's say in no particular order: Newnes, Bruce, Roberton, Ross, Armo, Savage, even the captain, can't make a statement on field (and we know that Steven can't beat a tag), then there's your core of supposed better players (Dunstan, Gilbert or Hickey couldn't get game, Longer so far hopeless) and they can't even figure in the best top 5 players on the ground against North, then we have a big problem and there's nothing much for the young players to look up to as an example.

It's a mess that the club has got itself into. I think the leadership of the club is not aligned or is plain out of touch.

 

[Sab22]

Thread for something that doesn't exist.

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[StCicatriz]

From my view and it has been mentioned by a few on here.

1. New defensive setup has put the defenders out of whack. Doubting that the plan is to have Carlisle and Brown 50m off of their opponents.

2. Having both Armo and Stevens in the team creates unbalance. We sat here last year arguing that the team could not sustain both Dunstan and Stevens, we seemed to play better through the midfield when there was only 1 of them. The question is who out of the 3 gets first crack. Imo Dunstan should get a shot. Armo and Stevens while serviceable were comprehensively beaten for contested ball and they struggle with spread. This in turn places pressure on both backs and forwards to try and help out.

3. If point 2 is rectified then the structure of team changes. For instance with 1 spot left in the centre you place Acres. Free spot on wing goes to Sinclair. Clark slots into the forward line. With the spare spot we bring in one of Weller Coffield Rice or White.

4. Out of form players. Few of those really need a perhaps a bit of time in the 2s. And not talking Paddy. He needs continuity.

5. Workrate. Like any gameplan if the workrate isn't there then everything compounds. And that on the weekend was severely lacking. Would love to know what truths were spoken in the meeting on Saturday.

You want to bring in a defender or forward for the loss of a midfielder?

 

[Impatient Saint]

I dont agree Plugger - its not all game plan but its definitely coaching IMO. How many players have significantly improved their craft under Richo and his assistants in most cases they have stagnated or gone backwards.

How many of Richo's line coaches have recent AFL coaching or playing experience in the position they are coaching - Playfair is the only example. The McDemott, Brown & Dunstan's discussion of Paddy still playing like he was in the under 18's is one example.

Some of last weeks debacle was the players becoming confused of which way to go or which method (plan) to use.

I am absolutely certain that if Clarkson had the same group of players for 6 months there would be a significant improvement in the players abilities and game day structures.

 

[plugger66]

I dont agree Plugger - its not all game plan but its definitely coaching IMO. How many players have significantly improved their craft under Richo and his assistants in most cases they have stagnated or gone backwards.

How many of Richo's line coaches have recent AFL coaching or playing experience in the position they are coaching - Playfair is the only example. The McDemott, Brown & Dunstan's discussion of Paddy still playing like he was in the under 18's is one example.

Some of last weeks debacle was the players becoming confused of which way to go or which method (plan) to use.

I am absolutely certain that if Clarkson had the same group of players for 6 months there would be a significant improvement in the players abilities and game day structures.

Well firstly you may have picked the best coach of all time to compare which is madness. Can the coach teach a side not to turn it over in the backline like we did Friday. I’m prepared to blame richo for the type of player we have but I still say most sides play very similar and I’m not smart enough to see the difference. Doubt many of us are


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[gringo2011]

I dont agree Plugger - its not all game plan but its definitely coaching IMO. How many players have significantly improved their craft under Richo and his assistants in most cases they have stagnated or gone backwards.

How many of Richo's line coaches have recent AFL coaching or playing experience in the position they are coaching - Playfair is the only example. The McDemott, Brown & Dunstan's discussion of Paddy still playing like he was in the under 18's is one example.

Some of last weeks debacle was the players becoming confused of which way to go or which method (plan) to use.

I am absolutely certain that if Clarkson had the same group of players for 6 months there would be a significant improvement in the players abilities and game day structures.

I'd say Newness, Seb, Billings, Bruce, Membrey, Roberton etc all improved, in fact he only has about 6 players that were there when he arrived i think.

To me Richo has a game plan designed to actually make us competitive and we play most teams like the Roos played us. We grind out wins. We have a very average list and would be bottom four for overall quality. Richo is an average coach tactically and this year seems to be trying to transition into playing front foot football. Only our skill levels and experience don't lend themselves to it. Trout is good at finding guys who have developed into middle of the road footballers not stars.

 

[FlyingSledghamer]

Hi guys, been reading but havnt posted for a while... although have to chuck my 2 cents in now.
All this talk about whos to blame. Where we went wrong.
Theres no one thing thats led to this. Its been more of a combination of f ups for a few years thats brought us here.
Coaches are to blame. Players are to blame. Administration above coaches are also to blame.

We have been rebuilding for 7 years.
During this time they've traded and drafted a bunch of speculative talls during a football era when the game is all about pressure, skill, getting numbers around the ball, keeping the ball in your fwd half.
Richo plays a game style that requires numbers to get around the ball and apply pressure yet at the same time plays McCartin, Bruce and Membrey in the fwd half... Again. In an era of footy when applying opposition pressure and being able to extract and execute under your opponents pressure is key.

Yes we play gresh and billings who are both exceptionally skilled players around those others, but, their so busy taking care of other facets of the game like running around, extraction, trying to get out of pressure, because they dont have CLEAN DISPOSAL OPTIONS. Our ball movement suffers and yes you guessed it.. We take too long, get caught, or bomb it inside 50 to a no lead when they should be the ones using their skills on the end of the chain inside 50.
So whats the answer to this?... Ben Long and the rest of the mids! Quickly get numbers to the ball and apply pressure, cant set up behind the ball or in front of the play properly to again create good disposal options cause these players have to cover the numbers at the contest from the other non athletes that dont get to the contest. 4 bloody years weve been bombing away. Genius isnt it.

How do we keep the ball forward long enough to stop them from scoring and kick enough goals ourselves? When we get outnumbered by our opposition with players that have more skills and apply more pressure than most of our players up there can. Most of our fwds dont even have the ability to do that in their game.

So we have a situation where we have a bunch of unskilled players in the back half that love turning the ball over. All of which is made harder by a game plan that causes players to not know how to positionally set up in front or behind the ball because their always getting sucked into the contest.
Bombing it to a fwd half that has too many talls that either cant mark, cant kick straight or can't apply any kind of pressure the other way what so ever. A fwd half that has its best and most skilled players running around contests trying to get the ball when they should be deep, recieving and finishing, all of this to make up numbers around the contest.

Yet we have players like Dunstan, Weller, Gilbert, Lonie, Wright, Minch who all go backwards after years and years of development? And they cant break the side? Players like Newnes and Bruce last year who are regressing after years of development under these coaches.
Players who have actually played better in recent years who are meant to be entering their peak years are getting worse in some cases.
Theres something wrong there.

Last year me and quite a few other people said it was lunacy extending Richos contract. Too many players seemed to go backwards or the game plan wasnt working.

But hey.. Not to worry too much. Were StKilda right.
Weve been waiting so long, another few years in this rebuild. Then so be it.

Either he changes, the team gels and we move forward or nothing changes we'll fin bottom 4 this year and next. He'll be gone, we'll get good picks and new coaches and then maybe a new generation with new hope.

 

[VDS66]

Looks like the game has moved on in the last 3 years. Agree our player types don't match the modern game speed.

So...

Might be time to reload and get games into the more recent recruits who have the attributes required.

Or we tread water this year while they gain miles at Sandy.

We need guys like White, Coff, Battle and Marshall etc to come on asap.

Gilbert, Armo, Lonie, done and dusted as are Minch and Wright. Not the answer. Weller as well if he can't recapture his best and turns out a one season wonder.

There you go. Never let it be said that I am unreasonable or in denial.

 

[FQFjt]

As an aside, in the last 5 years has a single young recruit been developed to his pre-draft potential?

I seriously doubt it. Just watch Brandon White go off and become Tom Lynch 2.0 while many other young career languish.


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[plugger66]

As an aside, in the last 5 years has a single young recruit been developed to his pre-draft potential?

I seriously doubt it. Just watch Brandon White go off and become Tom Lynch 2.0 while many other young career languish.


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In the last 5 years have any gone to other clubs and been stars. Maybe the players are just no good


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[StCicatriz]

In the last 5 years have any gone to other clubs and been stars. Maybe the players are just no good


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this i dont get. are you saying all the players we drafted, at the time of drafting them, were no good?

 

[plugger66]

this i dont get. are you saying all the players we drafted, at the time of drafting them, were no good?

No I’m responding to a statement that a player will b a star after he leaves us. Not that hard to understand


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[StCicatriz]

No I’m responding to a statement that a player will b a star after he leaves us. Not that hard to understand


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i guess my question is also based on a number of posts youve made that the list is no good and the players are no good

do you see the problem being the players we drafted?

 

[Saint Shags]

You want to bring in a defender or forward for the loss of a midfielder?

Well if you take a mid out of the forward line for instance Sincs, our take a kid from the halfback line where Clark had been playing. Would it then not be wise to bring in one of those listed?

 

[VDS66]

i guess my question is also based on a number of posts youve made that the list is no good and the players are no good

do you see the problem being the players we drafted?

He's saying they are the wrong types.

 

[Saints43]

He's saying they are the wrong types.

The wrong type for the plan we're trying to play? Maybe the plan should suit the list?

 

[StCicatriz]

Well if you take a mid out of the forward line for instance Sincs, our take a kid from the halfback line where Clark had been playing. Would it then not be wise to bring in one of those listed?

clark didnt play on the half back line on the weekend. he spent some time there against brisbane. that was it.

i think the big problem you've got is our biggest issue is the midfield, you're going to water that down by moving a mid like sinclair forward and then fill that midfield spot with someone who isnt a mid. which is only going to amplify the biggest issue we have.

bailey rice is a back pocket, who struggles with agility and endurance. he does not have the legs for the midfield. he has a great kick and reportedly is great in the contest. but he just cant cover the ground.

white is HBF, with potential to play the wing. like rice he struggles with the endurance side of the game. he's not quick either. he's great overhead though and has good disposal.

coffield a much much much better version of white although with serious midfield potential. but he cant play full time midfield minutes right now. the wing is new to him. he needs time.

weller is junior mid, come back pocket, come tagger, come defencive forward. he's a role playing battler. he's strugging to find the ball as it is at the highest level. now before people highlight the VFL performance on the weekend, it was against coburg!!!! weller is not a midfielder.

 

[plugger66]

i guess my question is also based on a number of posts youve made that the list is no good and the players are no good

do you see the problem being the players we drafted?

In many circumstances its a yes and also been a little unlucky and maybe not developed enough but that's guess work because we cant see that. And Richo was apparently a great development coach so that doesn't makes sense. Lets look at our top 2 picks in the last 5 years. Paddy. Slow no tank forward who drops as many marks as he takes. Doubt that development. Think its more to do with him playing in the wrong era. Not a terrible pick because he was rated second but the difference between being a great recruiter and an ordinary one. Billings. Was recruited to eventually be a mid half forward but just doesn't have a mids right tools Not in and under and not a clearance player. Outside at best but due to all these similar players we have to always play him as a HFF. Even guys like Goddard and Longer aren't suited to todays footy. The one that I think development has really stuffed up is Hickey. Went from a top 5 ruckman to a player Richo didn't want because it didn't suit our inside game. Lost all confidence and is about as good as Brooks now.

 

[plugger66]

The wrong type for the plan we're trying to play? Maybe the plan should suit the list?

we are and that is why Longer plays. We are an inside team who at the moment cant even do that.

 

[Saint Shags]

clark didnt play on the half back line on the weekend. he spent some time there against brisbane. that was it.

i think the big problem you've got is our biggest issue is the midfield, you're going to water that down by moving a mid like sinclair forward and then fill that midfield spot with someone who isnt a mid. which is only going to amplify the biggest issue we have.

bailey rice is a back pocket, who struggles with agility and endurance. he does not have the legs for the midfield. he has a great kick and reportedly is great in the contest. but he just cant cover the ground.

white is HBF, with potential to play the wing. like rice he struggles with the endurance side of the game. he's not quick either. he's great overhead though and has good disposal.

coffield a much much much better version of white although with serious midfield potential. but he cant play full time midfield minutes right now. the wing is new to him. he needs time.

weller is junior mid, come back pocket, come tagger, come defencive forward. he's a role playing battler. he's strugging to find the ball as it is at the highest level. now before people highlight the VFL performance on the weekend, it was against coburg!!!! weller is not a midfielder.

I think you need to go a reread.
Sincs has been struggling as a forward. He hasn't played on the wing. That has been Steele.
You take out 2 mids in Armo and Stevens replace with Dunstan and Steele. Frees up the wing spot for Sincs. That spot then needs to be filled.

Clark in the 2nd half moved down back just like against the Lions. Hell I reckon all 3 HTB were on the half back flank.

So we either fill Sincs forward role with a Weller type or we make sure that Clark with the forwards try stay close to no further than 70 from goal. That in turn means we need someone back.

By the way no amount of !!!!!! Gets the point across any better.

As a second point we called out for certain players not to be selected because they were the coaches pets. At present we need at least one of those back because they actually have more upside. I would argue that we need both Dunstan and Weller in the team. Dunstan provides more than Armo and can rest up forward. Weller has that mongrel which has lacked the last 2 weeks.