Traded Gary Ablett [traded to Geelong]

[krisholio14]

If Gary were a revered figure at the Suns then maybe they facilitate a trade to Geelong for a token pick ala the Hawks with Sam Mitchell.

I just don't think he's that highly thought of. It's more likely he's seen as a highly paid mercenary who extracted every last cent out of the circumstances.

If a kid on the GC wanted Gazza to sign something, he better have at least $50 handy...

Where did you get that from?

 

[telsor]

That's it really.

I don't want to keep going over the relative worth of a given pick in a draft to one club or another, that's getting off topic.

In a nutshell, this is how I see the situation. GC are not going to make finals next year whether Jnr is there or not. He represents a big chunk of their salary cap, and as good a player as he is, even another B&F winning year from him isn't of any real benefit to the Suns, especially in the long term. He wants to return home, and no matter what happens now, in 2019, he will not be in a Suns guernsey.

There are times when standing your ground on contracts is a good thing, like GWS with McCarthy last year. That was a situation they had to put their foot down on. Even refusing to trade Gaz last year was more than reasonable, the Suns were in a position that all going well they could have realistically thought with a good year from Gaz they could sneak into the finals.

Other Geelong supporters may be pulling the age old BF chestnut - overvaluing our own assets and bargaining position, while undervaluing the other party, and expecting to get a quality asset for chump change. Simple facts are, no matter what's a good move or not, if GC don't want to let him go, they don't have to and are quite within their grounds not to. I think it's in their best interests to let him go, in the short term so they get something for him, and in the long term to open up cap space, list space and opportunities while starting an overhaul of their whole operation with a new coach and fresh young talent. Having said that, in no way I am suggesting they should just give him to us. Why should they do us all the favours here? If a deal cannot be struck that is going to strengthen GC's position in the short and long term, then don't let him go. If they refuse a lowball offer and hang on to him, even when he leaves for nothing next year, they haven't caved. haven't given an opposition club a huge leg up, and are still holding on to a player that has very good footy left in him.

It is my belief a deal has already been agreed to in principle, and all parties are just waiting for other deals to fall into place before signing off on it. Given that GC may end up finding it difficult to use any extra picks this year, especially ones outside the top 20, there is more than likely one of next years picks on the table. I'd say a second round pick would be reasonable, and maybe a swap of picks later on. Alternatively, it is quite likely Motlop will be elsewhere next year. The compensation pick we get for him would be a fair chance to come into play depending on where it lands. I don't think there's going to be any salary issues, nor should there be. If Gaz wants all the money, then he needs to stay at GC. Otherwise, take a pay cut. Any of our supporters suggesting the Suns should carry any of his contract are living in dreamworld.

Unlike many of our supporters on these boards, the people at the club who do the wheeling and dealing don't have a history of low balling teams. We get deals done, and they get done fairly. We understand what the situation is here, and that we have to put something fair on the table to get the deal done if we really want him back at Geelong. If we aren't prepared to do that, the deal won't happen, nor should it. As I said, I think it's all but a done deal, but until the paperwork is signed sealed and delivered, anything can happen.

Agree with most of that except the pay cut bit.

Pretty sure from the Deledio to GWS deal last year that AFLPA rules would have issues with that, and the only way it can be changed is if the term is lengthened and the total is higher (so 1 year at 600K can become 2 at 350K), and with the state of Ablett's body over the past few years, I'm not sure that's a great idea for Geelong.


edit...actually, probably a bit more than 2*350K, as the 'higher total' would presumably need to include minimum wage for subsequent years.

 

[krisholio14]

Agree with most of that except the pay cut bit.

Pretty sure from the Deledio to GWS deal last year that AFLPA rules would have issues with that, and the only way it can be changed is if the term is lengthened and the total is higher (so 1 year at 600K can become 2 at 350K), and with the state of Ablett's body over the past few years, I'm not sure that's a great idea for Geelong.


edit...actually, probably a bit more than 2*350K, as the 'higher total' would presumably need to include minimum wage for subsequent years.

I would suggest that will be sorted if it's an issue. No way known should GC be carrying any of his salary next year if he's not there.

 

[telsor]

I would suggest that will be sorted if it's an issue. No way known should GC be carrying any of his salary next year if he's not there.

How much cap space does Geelong have?

Especially as they're supposed to be looking at Stringer, who would probably take up a fair chunk of what retirements, etc would free up.

 

[The 747]

How much cap space does Geelong have?

Especially as they're supposed to be looking at Stringer, who would probably take up a fair chunk of what retirements, etc would free up.

A fair bit I'd reckon - Mackie, Lonergan, Enright, Bartel out in the last two years and we generally don't pay top dollar (possibly because players get things for free in Geelong), plus cap going up.

 

[krisholio14]

How much cap space does Geelong have?

Especially as they're supposed to be looking at Stringer, who would probably take up a fair chunk of what retirements, etc would free up.

Motlop is gone as far as I know, and he's on 600-650k a season. That's going to open up a fair bit of space.

 

[Majunga]

So you honestly think he is up there with Rance and Talia? An A grader is an AA level, or B&F player.
He is a solid B grader.

Maybe we can grade players like homework by adding pluses, this newly added depth for evaluation should now enable enough wiggle room for a reasonable compromise would it not?

I'll rate him a B+++ or maybe an A-- ! Semantics....

 

[Majunga]

On the Ablett issue, who knows whether his body is up to another season or two, maybe the docs?
But from a personal point of view i hope we avoid becoming one of those fan bases that say things like ''such and such player is the key to a premiership"
You know you're on the wrong track when that's the situation you're in, that one missing piece of the puzzle phrase is just a bullshit media beat up term imo.

 

[Procrastinator35]

So Liam 'Snake-oil' Pickering reckons Gablett still has 4 years of good footy left in him yet?....Chasing another big pay cheque to pay for all your court costs then, I see.

 

[krisholio14]

has to be one of the dumbest things I have read on BF in a long time.

Obviously a dollar is worth more to someone who is broke compared to someone who is a millionaire.

Worth probably wasn't the right word. Value may have been a better choice.

 

[Reg Hickey]

It seems most Geelong fans think 'fair' would be a late/token pick from Geelong and GC picking up most of his salary.

Why GC would agree to this defies understanding.

Not at all. I think 'fair' would be a pick that is appropriate for a 33yo champion who hasn't been able to play 50 games over the past four years due to injuries, and we'll pay whatever salary we agree with him.

So what pick is appropriate? Best way to determine that is similar trades, surely. Well, Sam Mitchell was traded last year as a 33yo reigning B&F, former premiership captain and long-term champion of the club, although he had no injury issues so arguably should have been more valuable than Ablett.

Any other comparables? Jordan Lewis? Steve Johnson? Paul Chapman? Every one of them long term champions, all except Mitchell younger than Ablett is now, all less injury-plagued (maybe you could argue Stevie J, but he'd played ~80 games in the four years before he went to GWS), and every one traded for a single late pick.

A first round pick for a guy who will be 34yo early next season and hasn't been able to get on the park for 50 games in the last four years is patently ridiculous, and way out of line with recent comparable trades. Late second round pick at most.

 

[telsor]

Not at all. I think 'fair' would be a pick that is appropriate for a 33yo champion who hasn't been able to play 50 games over the past four years due to injuries, and we'll pay whatever salary we agree with him.

So what pick is appropriate? Best way to determine that is similar trades, surely. Well, Sam Mitchell was traded last year as a 33yo reigning B&F, former premiership captain and long-term champion of the club, although he had no injury issues so arguably should have been more valuable than Ablett.

Any other comparables? Jordan Lewis? Steve Johnson? Paul Chapman? Every one of them long term champions, all except Mitchell younger than Ablett is now, all less injury-plagued (maybe you could argue Stevie J, but he'd played ~80 games in the four years before he went to GWS), and every one traded for a single late pick.

A first round pick for a guy who will be 34yo early next season and hasn't been able to get on the park for 50 games in the last four years is patently ridiculous, and way out of line with recent comparable trades. Late second round pick at most.

In all those cases, the club wanted to move the player on, and the player was willing to do so.

There is no evidence GC wants to move Ablett on.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

In all those cases, the club wanted to move the player on, and the player was willing to do so.

There is no evidence GC wants to move Ablett on.

That's not really the point though.

The posts like the one you quoted are made in the context of GC supporters (who have with a few exceptions generally left their brains at the door when posting) continually suggesting that Geelong should somehow trade a first round draft pick or equivalent for Ablett as if Geelong a) has no other options and b) actually benefits from this. No one has as yet been able to give a decent reason as to why it's in Geelong's interest to trade a high draft pick for Ablett because there isn't one. Now if that leaves Ablett not getting where he wants to go, or GC with a player that doesn't want to be there, that's his problem and GC's respectively not Geelong's. Which is how it will pan out if GC push it that way.

 

[Two Eyes]

In all those cases, the club wanted to move the player on, and the player was willing to do so.

There is no evidence GC wants to move Ablett on.

All the players you mentioned played for significant unders than what they could have gotten on the open market.

Their clubs also wanted to move them on and the clubs trading for them knew this. It was all about getting those players to the destinations they desired because they wanted to give younger players an opportunity and free up cap space. There was also a ton of good will towards those players.

Gaz chose to chase the $$$ and squeezed every last penny out of GC. I don't see a surfeit of good will nor a club need to get the little mercenary home.

Of course Geelong would be stupid to offer much for him for the reasons stated. Most likely this means that Gaz will have to choose between $800k or his family.

I'll respect Gary if he leaves the money behind and retires. Something tells me, however, that if GC don't cave he'll still play for them next year.

 

[krisholio14]

All the players you mentioned played for significant unders than what they could have gotten on the open market.

Their clubs also wanted to move them on and the clubs trading for them knew this. It was all about getting those players to the destinations they desired because they wanted to give younger players an opportunity and free up cap space. There was also a ton of good will towards those players.

Gaz chose to chase the $$$ and squeezed every last penny out of GC. I don't see a surfeit of good will nor a club need to get the little mercenary home.

Of course Geelong would be stupid to offer much for him for the reasons stated. Most likely this means that Gaz will have to choose between $800k or his family.

I'll respect Gary if he leaves the money behind and retires. Something tells me, however, that if GC don't cave he'll still play for them next year.

WTF are you on about?

Jnr has earned every cent he's been paid. A Brownlow, 4 B&F's, 2 MVP's and 4 AA nods, including the captaincy attest to that. The club was on route to a finals appearance until his shoulder got busted by an opposition scrub, and the place has gone down the gurgler from that moment on. Gazza has more than held up his end of the bargain, it's not his fault the rest of the club is run incompetently.

Besides, if they didn't want to pay him the money they have, they could have let him go years ago, or not gone after him in the first place.

Good lord I'd love it if everyone criticizing him as being a merc could be put in the situation where they get offered more than 4 times as much as they've been getting to do basically the same job they've been doing, only for a new company. Got the feeling the vast majority would be falling off their high horses real quick.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Something tells me, however, that if GC don't cave he'll still play for them next year.

It wouldn't surprise me if they attempted to extend his contract.

It also wouldn't surprise me if he accepted.

 

[Two Eyes]

WTF are you on about?

Jnr has earned every cent he's been paid. A Brownlow, 4 B&F's, 2 MVP's and 4 AA nods, including the captaincy attest to that. The club was on route to a finals appearance until his shoulder got busted by an opposition scrub, and the place has gone down the gurgler from that moment on. Gazza has more than held up his end of the bargain, it's not his fault the rest of the club is run incompetently.

Besides, if they didn't want to pay him the money they have, they could have let him go years ago, or not gone after him in the first place.

Good lord I'd love it if everyone criticizing him as being a merc could be put in the situation where they get offered more than 4 times as much as they've been getting to do basically the same job they've been doing, only for a new company. Got the feeling the vast majority would be falling off their high horses real quick.

Look it's pretty simple stuff, much like the relative value of a dollar to a beggar or a millionaire.

There's nothing wrong with Gary being motivated by money above other footballing considerations. That's his right and many of us would have made the same choice.

It's a choice with consequences, however. GC would be painfully aware that Gary's only there because they paid him a ton of money. I very much doubt they'd feel the same goodwill to Gary as Hawthorn would to loyal and continually underpaid servant Sam Mitchell. Multiple premiership player Sam Mitchell.

Ditto Geelong with their underpaid premiership heroes. I'm sure Geelong were conscious of the shitty treatment they were giving their champions so the least they could do was get them to where they wanted to go.

Do you see the difference between them and Gary Ablett who was paid double what the others got and brought zero success to the club he was hired to captain?

 

[Iva Bigun]

Lots of Geelong fans saying he's worth nothing or Suns will take what they get given

Lots of opposition fans saying Cats need to make it worth the Suns while to trade him

Hmmmm.... which of those groups are likely to be biased or unrealistic......hmmmmm

 

[RegHickeyStand]

......

There's nothing wrong with Gary being motivated by money above other footballing considerations. That's his right and many of us would have made the same choice.

It's a choice with consequences, however. GC would be painfully aware that Gary's only there because they paid him a ton of money. I very much doubt they'd feel the same goodwill to Gary as Hawthorn would to loyal and continually underpaid servant Sam Mitchell. Multiple premiership player Sam Mitchell.
.....
Do you see the difference between them and Gary Ablett who was paid double what the others got and brought zero success to the club he was hired to captain?

You are wrong.

Even if Ablett's major motivation was the truck load of money, there was something else. And the GCS did not hold up their end of the bargain. They sold him on the Suns being successful. Told him they would be challenging for premierships during his time there. Which would be about now. Like GWS is currently doing. Instead, its been the worst run club in AFL history. So, it's not all one way by a long shot.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Lots of Geelong fans saying he's worth nothing or Suns will take what they get given

Lots of opposition fans saying Cats need to make it worth the Suns while to trade him

Hmmmm.... which of those groups are likely to be biased or unrealistic......hmmmmm

Keep him.

 

[Two Eyes]

You are wrong.

Even if Ablett's major motivation was the truck load of money, there was something else. And the GCS did not hold up their end of the bargain. They sold him on the Suns being successful. Told him they would be challenging for premierships during his time there. Which would be about now. Like GWS is currently doing. Instead, its been the worst run club in AFL history. So, it's not all one way by a long shot.

No I'm not.

Sure there must be disappointment on both sides which is part of the reason Gary wants to welsh on his contract.

The point is, if you think Gary and GC enjoy the same level of mutual goodwill as the Hawks and Sam Mitchell you really need to take your Geelong lenses off.

GC don't owe Gary anything. They certainly don't have an obligation to be shafted by him. Gary being Gary I can see him playing just enough games next season to get the lions share of his final year contract and then retire early.

 

[Hawkinspired]

Isn't the sticking point that Gary actually owes GC half a million bucks because his contract was front ended?

I'm sure under normal circumstances an exchange of picks could be arranged, but this isn't exactly normal circumstances.

 

[MrFujiMoto]

You are wrong.... Instead, its been the worst run club in AFL history. So, it's not all one way by a long shot.

The first incarnation of the Sydney Swans say hi

 

[Two Eyes]

The first incarnation of the Sydney Swans say hi

So do the Brisbane Bears.

 

[dlanod]

So do the Brisbane Bears.

Yeah, two words: "Christopher Skase".