The Law Gay Couples Vs Christian bakers

Geelong_Sicko

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 11, 2007
16,724
13,841
Melbourne
AFL Club
Geelong
How does that help push a social agenda though? How am I supposed to be offended by something if I have to do the political stuff myself?

I'm here for Instalikes and Justice Points.
Well, the social agenda being pushed there would be co-existence. Many worlds within one. It IS workable. Both sides just have to calm the friggen farm a bit and realise that each share in the same society and it would be benefitial to tolerate each other.

Remember, toleration does NOT mean acceptance. There is a difference. A person can tolerate a wide variety of things without actually accepting them within their own mind.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Taylor

Moderator
Jul 16, 2009
38,712
39,632
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Well, the social agenda being pushed there would be co-existence. Many worlds within one. It IS workable. Both sides just have to calm the friggen farm a bit and realise that each share in the same society and it would be benefitial to tolerate each other.

Remember, toleration does NOT mean acceptance. There is a difference. A person can tolerate a wide variety of things without actually accepting them within their own mind.
I think someone walking into you little space in the world to bring you trouble has further to step back to an even level than the person they approached. They are the ones who are looking to get a win for their cause.
 

Geelong_Sicko

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 11, 2007
16,724
13,841
Melbourne
AFL Club
Geelong
I think someone walking into you little space in the world to bring you trouble has further to step back to an even level than the person they approached. They are the ones who are looking to get a win for their cause.
But the baker did not identify himself as holding specific values until the two parties got down to business. It stands to reason that the consumer should be able to make informed choices before purchase. Beliefs held that lead to potential discrimination, to my mind anyway, are just as important as nutritional information, ingredients highlighting allergy warnings, and where the product/s were made.

Informed choice is where its at.
 

Cooldude

Hall of Famer
Dec 12, 2003
44,838
22,595
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Bombers/Liverpool FC
Should someone be able to be forced to write something that they don't agree with? I get the position on the 'creative' argument about not being able to refuse an off the shelf type service to someone, but then also being able to refuse to write (or other create) something they disagree with.

I wouldn't expect a Muslim baker to make me a cake that says "Allah is a liar" or some such for example. But I get the feeling some people expressly want to be able to force anyone who disagrees with their idelogical position to be forced to do so.
I see it completely differently, I as a customer wouldn't want to turn up to a shop just to be refused certain types of service due to something intrinsic about me. If a baker can refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding, you can start refusing all kinds of things: it's a wedding between a white person and a black person, I disagree with that so I won't bake them their cake. You can't let people go along with things they disagree with, right?

In life, people have to do things they don't agree with, all the time. Many people have taken up jobs where they have to do things they don't like or agree with. Many people in society disagree with certain laws, but they have to follow them anyway. It's something everyone has to do, it's called being an adult

I am sure if the Christians are refused services because people disagree with their religion, they wouldn't be so happy.
 

its free real estate

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 30, 2018
8,019
9,819
AFL Club
Fremantle
In life, people have to do things they don't agree with, all the time. Many people have taken up jobs where they have to do things they don't like or agree with. Many people in society disagree with certain laws, but they have to follow them anyway. It's something everyone has to do, it's called being an adult
Given the infantilism and petulance of 21st century man, I’d say the average person is a long way from being an adult. Begging the government to solve minor social disagreements is not the act of adulthood.

Thankfully the Northern Ireland courts agree with me. Not all is lost yet!
 

Cooldude

Hall of Famer
Dec 12, 2003
44,838
22,595
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Bombers/Liverpool FC
Given the infantilism and petulance of 21st century man, I’d say the average person is a long way from being an adult. Begging the government to solve minor social disagreements is not the act of adulthood.
I know right, those religious types are always such babies, crying every time something doesn't go their way
 

its free real estate

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 30, 2018
8,019
9,819
AFL Club
Fremantle
I know right, those religious types are always such babies, crying every time something doesn't go their way
I reckon business owners should be able to serve who they please.

Why should they be forced to bake a cake that says “SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE”? This is not a cake for a gay wedding but a political statement.
 

Cooldude

Hall of Famer
Dec 12, 2003
44,838
22,595
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Bombers/Liverpool FC
I reckon business owners should be able to serve who they please.

Why should they be forced to bake a cake that says “SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE”? This is not a cake for a gay wedding but a political statement.
Sure, business owners can serve who they please, I guess going by that, I won't serve any religious people, or that other business won't serve Chinese people, or that other one won't serve black people, or white people. If that's the society you want

Dunno how long these people have been doing business in their lives, but you have to deal with people who are different to you all the time in business, welcome to the real world. You get money as "compensation" for "subverting" your beliefs
 

its free real estate

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 30, 2018
8,019
9,819
AFL Club
Fremantle
Sure, business owners can serve who they please, I guess going by that, I won't serve any religious people, or that other business won't serve Chinese people, or that other one won't serve black people, or white people. If that's the society you want

Dunno how long these people have been doing business in their lives, but you have to deal with people who are different to you all the time in business, welcome to the real world. You get money as "compensation" for "subverting" your beliefs
And they can choose to leave money on the table if they please. What’s the big deal?
 

its free real estate

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 30, 2018
8,019
9,819
AFL Club
Fremantle
Also, segregation and apartheid was enforced by the state, so if the argument is that mistakes of the past, where the state meddled in people’s private business, must be remedied by the state again meddling in people’s private business, then your world view has no moral foundation and is simply historically contingent.
 

Cooldude

Hall of Famer
Dec 12, 2003
44,838
22,595
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Bombers/Liverpool FC
And they can choose to leave money on the table if they please. What’s the big deal?
Sure, then anyone else can leave the money on the table for any type of people then, not just for gay weddings. No big deal if I want to stop serving Muslims and Christians, or conservatives. It would be my pleasure

If religious people are crying for their "rights", we would only ask to have the same rights granted to us

Also, segregation and apartheid was enforced by the state, so if the argument is that mistakes of the past, where the state meddled in people’s private business, must be remedied by the state again meddling in people’s private business, then your world view has no moral foundation and is simply historically contingent.
You're being very dramatic here, no one's going that hyperbolic
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

its free real estate

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 30, 2018
8,019
9,819
AFL Club
Fremantle
Sure, then anyone else can leave the money on the table for any type of people then, not just for gay weddings. No big deal if I want to stop serving Muslims and Christians, or conservatives. It would be my pleasure

If religious people are crying for their "rights", we would only ask to have the same rights granted to us
You do have said rights. What are you complaining about?
 

Cooldude

Hall of Famer
Dec 12, 2003
44,838
22,595
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Bombers/Liverpool FC
You do have said rights. What are you complaining about?
Wait, I have the rights to ignore anti discrimination laws? Holy s**t

If I have these rights, then that means the Christians have these rights all along, right?

Then what are they complaining about?

You seem very confused about who's doing the complaining, it's only the religious people crying like babies to the courts because they don't wanna make a wedding cake
 

owen87

Premiership Player
Apr 23, 2016
3,232
3,929
AFL Club
Essendon
I see it completely differently, I as a customer wouldn't want to turn up to a shop just to be refused certain types of service due to something intrinsic about me. If a baker can refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding, you can start refusing all kinds of things: it's a wedding between a white person and a black person, I disagree with that so I won't bake them their cake. You can't let people go along with things they disagree with, right?

In life, people have to do things they don't agree with, all the time. Many people have taken up jobs where they have to do things they don't like or agree with. Many people in society disagree with certain laws, but they have to follow them anyway. It's something everyone has to do, it's called being an adult

I am sure if the Christians are refused services because people disagree with their religion, they wouldn't be so happy.
It's not a refusal to serve the individual as far as I've read it; it's a refusal to create something against that persons values. And plenty of people get asked to do things they don't like at work and refuse, you can choose to remain in a job that you don't agree with, or choose to leave can't you? If a sole trader doesn't want to engage in a certain form of work they don't have to? There's a certain right of refusal we are allowed as individuals, along with consequences of that refusal.

If a neo-nazi walks in an wants a cake that says "the holocaust was false" or "deport the ni**ers" then should the baker be compelled to provide that service? At what point does someone's ability to compel someone else to do something against their own values (but not illegal) stop? Is the loss of business sufficient; along with potential limitations of future work available to them (or they may well gain additional work from other groups).
 

Geelong_Sicko

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 11, 2007
16,724
13,841
Melbourne
AFL Club
Geelong
It's not a refusal to serve the individual as far as I've read it; it's a refusal to create something against that persons values. And plenty of people get asked to do things they don't like at work and refuse, you can choose to remain in a job that you don't agree with, or choose to leave can't you? If a sole trader doesn't want to engage in a certain form of work they don't have to? There's a certain right of refusal we are allowed as individuals, along with consequences of that refusal.

If a neo-nazi walks in an wants a cake that says "the holocaust was false" or "deport the ni**ers" then should the baker be compelled to provide that service? At what point does someone's ability to compel someone else to do something against their own values (but not illegal) stop? Is the loss of business sufficient; along with potential limitations of future work available to them (or they may well gain additional work from other groups).
I think that the only way of defusing the situation is by instituting more informed consumer choice. If you're a Christian baker with the associated Christian values you identify as such. Ditto Muslims. Ditto any belief system. Therefore anybody who comes your way with an unreasonable request (seeing how you've already identified yourself as having said values) does not have a solitary leg to stand on in the courts.

I don't believe in discrimination myself. But we live in a world with so many conflicting values and beliefs that compromise has to be made. This is it. Inform everyone. Those that don't like it go elsewhere. Those who still target the business for said values are criminals to be prosecuted.
 

Cooldude

Hall of Famer
Dec 12, 2003
44,838
22,595
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Bombers/Liverpool FC
It's not a refusal to serve the individual as far as I've read it; it's a refusal to create something against that persons values. And plenty of people get asked to do things they don't like at work and refuse, you can choose to remain in a job that you don't agree with, or choose to leave can't you? If a sole trader doesn't want to engage in a certain form of work they don't have to? There's a certain right of refusal we are allowed as individuals, along with consequences of that refusal.

If a neo-nazi walks in an wants a cake that says "the holocaust was false" or "deport the ni**ers" then should the baker be compelled to provide that service? At what point does someone's ability to compel someone else to do something against their own values (but not illegal) stop? Is the loss of business sufficient; along with potential limitations of future work available to them (or they may well gain additional work from other groups).
1. That's a very cute attempt to spin and play on words/phrases there. Sure, refusal to create something against a person's values; but if those values are discriminatory, then it's discrimination. If your values are to see gay people as wrong and repugnant, and not creating anything for them as a result, then that is discriminating against gay people. It's cute that you spin it like the discriminators are the ones defending their own rights, but they are actually subverting others' rights

If I refuse to create anything for black people because it's against my values of thinking black people are inferior, I'd still be racist, except I'm doing it disingenuously.

2. What a silly comparison, if a Neo-nazi is telling you to write racist messages on a cake, then they are the ones being racist, they are the ones breaking anti-discrimination laws. Not only should you not make that cake for them, you can call the cops on them. You shouldn't be committing criminal activity even for business.

I find all these dumb scenarios where somehow the customers are asking the baker to write the most improbable messages quite hilarious, they are creating absurd scenarios to justify what they know is discrimination on their part

3. Except you are conveniently forgetting the different situations of employer and employee: sure, refuse to do work with certain people as a company's employee and you will receive consequences for it from the employer, and so you should; but bakeries where the guy refusing to bake the cake for gay people who are going to be owners of that business and therefore the employers, no one will take them to account within their own business, except for the law. That is why anti-discrimination laws are in place, to hold employers to account where they otherwise can't be, not the employees

Christian employers are precisely trying to subvert those discrimination laws' ability to hold their homophobia to account, that is why this whole melodrama about gay wedding cakes kicked off in the first place; Christians want to keep gay people out of their business, but they know they'd be breaking anti-discrimination laws. Hence the wink wink nudge nudge and wah wah crying to the courts to make sure those laws don't apply specifically to Christians
 

its free real estate

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 30, 2018
8,019
9,819
AFL Club
Fremantle
1. That's a very cute attempt to spin and play on words/phrases there. Sure, refusal to create something against a person's values; but if those values are discriminatory, then it's discrimination. If your values are to see gay people as wrong and repugnant, and not creating anything for them as a result, then that is discriminating against gay people. It's cute that you spin it like the discriminators are the ones defending their own rights, but they are actually subverting others' rights

If I refuse to create anything for black people because it's against my values of thinking black people are inferior, I'd still be racist, except I'm doing it disingenuously.

2. What a silly comparison, if a Neo-nazi is telling you to write racist messages on a cake, then they are the ones being racist, they are the ones breaking anti-discrimination laws. Not only should you not make that cake for them, you can call the cops on them. You shouldn't be committing criminal activity even for business.

I find all these dumb scenarios where somehow the customers are asking the baker to write the most improbable messages quite hilarious, they are creating absurd scenarios to justify what they know is discrimination on their part

3. Except you are conveniently forgetting the different situations of employer and employee: sure, refuse to do work with certain people as a company's employee and you will receive consequences for it from the employer, and so you should; but bakeries where the guy refusing to bake the cake for gay people who are going to be owners of that business and therefore the employers, no one will take them to account within their own business, except for the law. That is why anti-discrimination laws are in place, to hold employers to account where they otherwise can't be, not the employees

Christian employers are precisely trying to subvert those discrimination laws' ability to hold their homophobia to account, that is why this whole melodrama about gay wedding cakes kicked off in the first place; Christians want to keep gay people out of their business, but they know they'd be breaking anti-discrimination laws. Hence the win wink nudge nudge and wah wah crying to the courts to make sure those laws don't apply specifically to Christians
It seems you haven’t read any of the articles to do with the Northern Ireland case.
 

Cooldude

Hall of Famer
Dec 12, 2003
44,838
22,595
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Bombers/Liverpool FC
It seems you haven’t read any of the articles to do with the Northern Ireland case.
Why should nearly 90% Christian Northern Ireland's religious verdicts have anything to do with the rest of the world?

Unless you're advocating for Australia to copy the ways of an upstanding peaceful country that is Northern Ireland, sure, let Australia become more like Northern Ireland, sounds great.

You are talking about a country that still has blasphemy laws, for god's sake (saying this would put me in jail in that country)
 

its free real estate

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 30, 2018
8,019
9,819
AFL Club
Fremantle
Why should nearly 90% Christian Northern Ireland's religious verdicts have anything to do with the rest of the world?

Unless you're advocating for Australia to copy the ways of an upstanding peaceful country that is Northern Ireland, sure, let Australia become more like Northern Ireland, sounds great.
So you haven’t read it.
 

Cooldude

Hall of Famer
Dec 12, 2003
44,838
22,595
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Bombers/Liverpool FC
So you haven’t read it.
I ignore it as a sensible person should

That country still has blasphemy laws, their stance on religious matters don't matter. Should I start referencing Afgan laws in the matters of Sharia Law for Australia?

You are that one bloke that highlights the one ruling that suits your politics around the world and repeatedly cite it like a little kid, that's cute

I like how you ignored all my argued points as soon as you know you had no rebuttal to them though, got nothing
 

its free real estate

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 30, 2018
8,019
9,819
AFL Club
Fremantle
I ignore it as a sensible person should

That country still has blasphemy laws, their stance on religious matters don't matter. Should I start referencing Afgan laws in the matters of Sharia Law for Australia?

You are that one bloke that highlights the one ruling that suits your politics around the world and repeatedly cite it like a little kid, that's cute
Maybe you should acquaint yourself with the matters of the case before commenting on it. That’s what intelligent people do. Or is it a habit of yours to comment on things you have no knowledge of?
 

Cooldude

Hall of Famer
Dec 12, 2003
44,838
22,595
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Bombers/Liverpool FC
Maybe you should acquaint yourself with the matters of the case before commenting on it. That’s what intelligent people do. Or is it a habit of yours to comment on things you have no knowledge of?
Intelligent people only care for relevant information, not useless ones

Nah no need to project your own habits on other people. You know you don't have the capacity to debate this with your own limited intellect, so you have decided to go, "But but muh northern ireland!"

I think you should immigrate to Northern Ireland, it'd suit you way better there, since you only like to cite something that suits your politics
 

its free real estate

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 30, 2018
8,019
9,819
AFL Club
Fremantle
Intelligent people only care for relevant information, not useless ones

Nah no need to project your own habits on other people. You know you don't have the capacity to debate this with your own limited intellect, so you have decided to go, "But but muh northern ireland!"

I think you should immigrate to Northern Ireland, it'd suit you way better there, since you only like to cite something that suits your politics
You are a lot dumber than you think you are.

Should bakeries be forced to make cakes with “black lives matter” on it?
 

Top Bottom