Geelong 2007 vs Hawthorn 2014 - who would win?

[hk89]

I'm not going to quote and counter every point. But this is what stands out.

What stands out is your inability to stay on topic. Geelong 2007 vs Hawthorn 2014. Stop talking about 2009-2011.

 

[hk89]

we'll have to keep adding more to the collection then won't we

Yup, very possible too.

 

[imadodgyumpire]

You couldn't make this s**t up... . Well I mean YOU could... lol.

C'mon, bro? The fact there wasn't another GF match up between Geelong/Hawthorn plays into the hands of Hawthorn fans in all the banter, and arguing of the merit of relevant teams. Don't try to deny it.

Weak years? Smashed Sydney in 14 and eagles in 15. Go back to the fifties to see a team do that in successive grand finals

so I guess they may have been weak years

Unless we're going to go back, watch and analyse all the teams and games of the relevant seasons. How on earth is it going to be determined which seasons had the most strength and depth, therefore validating which GF winner more?

The point is, making an ambit claim that 07 was a weak year cannot be used againt the merit of Geelong 07 GF win.

 

[imadodgyumpire]

What stands out is your inability to stay on topic. Geelong 2007 vs Hawthorn 2014. Stop talking about 2009-2011.

Geelong 2007 wins despite all the reasons you've made for Hawthorn 14.

In the middle of this conversation, I've been trying to determine what qualities the 07 Geelong side had and/or hadn't, that their 08 side did and didn't have that would make the difference.

The 07 Geelong side, unlike the 08 GF team, wasn't complacent and satisfied with themselves. That's partly what contributed to them belting Port. They weren't complacent with Port. They were memorably beaten by them at Kardinia Park about 6 weeks before. You could've put any side against them, and they would've trod over them to get the premiership.

Their intensity, integrity and lack of complacency would get them over the line.

Not yet. With only 2 on the board, Richmond are more like Geelong's somewhat less successful, but incredibly annoying younger sibling. Less flags, crappier H&A records, far crappier team. Beat one team that has a lifetime 75% loss rate at the MCG, and another that up to that point hadn't been on the MCG on GF day this millenium. If Geelong hadn't run into the mighty Hawthorn football club in 2008, they'd have had a 3-peat with a kicker, something Richmond are still two more flags away from achieving, and only Hawthorn has achieved in the modern era.

The bolded is an opinion you can turn down from "certain" to "doubtful".

I have heard numerous times over the years that Geelong aren't sure they'd have won 09 had they not suffered the sting of the 08 GF loss. When I say "Geelong", I'm saying substantial players like Cam Mooney and Stevie J. Even when just talking about what a great GF 09 was, they'll bring up off their own accord that the experience of 08 got them over the line. Had they won 08, they might not even have made the 09 GF.

So yeah, there you go.

 

[WWSD]

No team has had a better forward-line in AFL/VFL history then the Hawks of 2012-2015.

Two Coleman medalists and four consecutive seasons as the number one scoring team. Arguably the best scoring team of all-time.

There has been five players under Clarkson that have won the Hawks leading goal kicking award.

Hawthorn in 2012 averaged 122.7 points per game during the home and away season.

 

[Luv_our_club]

No team has had a better forward-line in AFL/VFL history then the Hawks of 2012-2015.

Two Coleman medalists and four consecutive seasons as the number one scoring team. Arguably the best scoring team of all-time.

There has been five players under Clarkson that have won the Hawks leading goal kicking award.

Hawthorn in 2012 averaged 122.7 points per game during the home and away season.

I am not trying to neg you but i would say the Hawks in 1988-91 had a better forward line, with Hawks 2012-15 being second. Essendon 2000 or Bris 2001-3 would be third (imo).


Geelong 2007-2011 had a poor forward 50. It makes them ineligible in the GOAT conversation.

 

[hawkman]

I am not trying to neg you but i would say the Hawks in 1988-91 had a better forward line, with Hawks 2012-15 being second. Essendon 2000 or Bris 2001-3 would be third (imo).


Geelong 2007-2011 had a poor forward 50. It makes them ineligible in the GOAT conversation.

Geelongs forward line was still good with Mooney, Johnson and Chapman up there. It just wasn't their greatest strength.

 

[Catsnlakers]

Geelong 2007-2011 had a poor forward 50. It makes them ineligible in the GOAT conversation.

This is not exactly true, whilst it was certainly our weakest third of the ground, it still consisted of 4 All Australian’s in Hawkins, Mooney, Johnson & Chapman......Johnson & Chapman in particular were two of the best mid sized forwards in the league for that whole period of time ( proven by them both being Norm Smith Medallist’s ).

 

[hawkman]

This is not exactly true, whilst it was certainly our weakest third of the ground, it still consisted of 4 All Australian’s in Hawkins, Mooney, Johnson & Chapman......Johnson & Chapman in particular were two of the best mid sized forwards in the league for that whole period of time ( proven by them both being Norm Smith Medallist’s ).

Agree with you although Hawkins wasn't All Australian over that period

 

[Catsnlakers]

Agree with you although Hawkins wasn't All Australian over that period

Yea true, the very next year in 2012 he was... But you’re right it wasn’t in that period. I think our forward half gets talked down a little because of how great our midfield & backline was....It was actually quite a solid line, it’s probably the same for the great Hawks team with their backline... Because of the awesome forward line & midfield it got talked down a little, but it was still super effective.

 

[threesixpio]

The Swans of 2014 were a formidable side, far moreso than Port of 2007 which really had an extraordinarily weak top 4 that year (Cats aside).

The Hawks went through 2014 with multiple long term injuries to likes of Rioli, Mitchell, Gibson and Lake (and there were others), as well as Clarko himself being ill and absent for 5 weeks. And I believe missed Lewis and Hodge from the early season loss to the Swans after their suspensions following the North game, and then copped injuries in game.

If there was ever a season we shouldn't have won that was it. Yet despite it all we finished equal wins with Swans and Cats and while the Cats had a terrible %, the Hawks still had a % of 140 and finished only a breath off Sydney in top spot.

By the time finals had come around the full band was back together and to anyone that was paying attention were clearly the team to beat. That side was amazing. To finish on equal wins with a massive % despite all the hurdles for the season was huge. Come September we were primed and absolutely destroyed a highly touted opponent come the grand final. Despite 2007 having a greater final margin, the 2014 was the most complete GF display of football perfection against a quality opponent.

I just had a postgasm

 

[threesixpio]

"07-11 one of the softest eras in footy ever."

There's another argument that airheads can blatantly use without any accountability. It's not like anyone has the time to watch every single game form 07 to 15, and judge the merit of each team and their season compared to others.

07 Port were a good team, but would be considered the weakest of the bunch that lost Gfs in that period. There are some GF losers in that period that were better than the subsequent winning teams. Geelong 08 would be my pick for best all time team because of the manner in which they played. But every brain dead hawthorn moronr would being up losing the GF. Saints of 09/10 were great. And Collingwood of 11 are a great team in their own right.

The Geelong/Collingwood 2011 GF matchup as a duo, are of greater footballing talent and flair than any GF matchup since, and that includes all the GFs Hawthorn competed in.

Geelong did very well to be the Saints in 09 and Pies in 11 - dumb to say otherwise. Enormous wins.

 

[Cyclops]

Geelong 2007 were probably drug assisted and definitely had so much more star power it seems a silly comparison.

That said Hawthorn 2014 were much better coached, there were some absolute duds that Clarkson turned into competent Bs and Cs.

Clarckson had druggy Thompson's number in 2008 with a greener (and frankly worse) side and coached him off the park.

I feel strange admitting this but Hawthorn would probably win this match up.

 

[Scotland]

This is the silly thread.

Hawthorn 2014 were better than Hawthorn 2008, but Geelong 2008 were better than Hawthorn 2008 and the cup doesn't have 'Geelong' engraved on it.

 

[Pessimistic]

This is the silly thread.

Hawthorn 2014 were better than Hawthorn 2008, but Geelong 2008 were better than Hawthorn 2008 and the cup doesn't have 'Geelong' engraved on it.

hawthorns 2008 home and away was creditable for a premier, and better than some premiers in other years. Geelong just approached the grand final about as bad as a team could.

thanks to a couple of doozy goals late in the third there were only 3 kicks in it. ‘GOAT teams could handle that. They had significant shortfalls. Slower than a wet Wednesday and Tom lonergan at FF

 

[Scotland]

hawthorns 2008 home and away was creditable for a premier, and better than some premiers in other years. Geelong just approached the grand final about as bad as a team could.

thanks to a couple of doozy goals late in the third there were only 3 kicks in it. ‘GOAT teams could handle that. They had significant shortfalls. Slower than a wet Wednesday and Tom lonergan at FF

2008 was a pretty weak season overall but 17-5 132% is a very good record. Better than all 4 of our premiership H&A records off the top of my head. Geelong were expected to win because they finished 21-1 162%. You get odd years like 2011 where 18-4 gets you third and 17-5 gets you fourth, but who the hell finishes 21-1 162% and doesn't win the flag?

 

[hk89]

Geelong 2007 wins despite all the reasons you've made for Hawthorn 14.

In the middle of this conversation, I've been trying to determine what qualities the 07 Geelong side had and/or hadn't, that their 08 side did and didn't have that would make the difference.

I'll give you one thing the 07 and 08 Geelong sides had in common. They both lost to Hawthorn sides that were far inferior to the 2014 Hawthorn side.

 

[Pessimistic]

Geelong 2007 were probably drug assisted and definitely had so much more star power it seems a silly comparison.

That said Hawthorn 2014 were much better coached, there were some absolute duds that Clarkson turned into competent Bs and Cs.

Clarckson had druggy Thompson's number in 2008 with a greener (and frankly worse) side and coached him off the park.

I feel strange admitting this but Hawthorn would probably win this match up.

Yet in the 'geelong' era we had Nablett, Lonergan, Podsiadly as makeshift forwards to varying success

 

[threesixpio]

Geelong 2007 were probably drug assisted and definitely had so much more star power it seems a silly comparison.

That said Hawthorn 2014 were much better coached, there were some absolute duds that Clarkson turned into competent Bs and Cs.

Clarckson had druggy Thompson's number in 2008 with a greener (and frankly worse) side and coached him off the park.

I feel strange admitting this but Hawthorn would probably win this match up.

You want to marry Hawthorn

 

[hk89]

Yet in the 'geelong' era we had Nablett, Lonergan, Podsiadly as makeshift forwards to varying success

Indeed, and while you can say players like Chapman were AA forwards , in the years he was AA he was more a goal kicking midfielder than a forward. In fact Geelong's awesome midfield, and the number of goals they got from them was partly why they were able to be so successful with a makeshift forward line.

Johnson was a gun, but Mooney was massively overrated for mine, and his AA highlighted how the bright glow of the Geelong team performance blinded AA selectors over that period. His 2007 AA was a joke, given there was 9 forwards that averaged more goals than him that year. Forwards that averaged more goals (and played at least 19 games) that missed out on AA were Lucas, Gehrig, Fevola, Lloyd and Franklin. Until finals he'd only kicked 55 goals, which is solid, but for a key forward, hardly AA material. Even after finals where Mooney kicked 12 to get to 67, Franklin was still ahead of him on 73, and Mooney was still picked ahead of him.

 

[hawkman]

Yet in the 'geelong' era we had Nablett, Lonergan, Podsiadly as makeshift forwards to varying success

Let's not pretend there weren't average players in our team. Schoenmakers is a premiership forward, Spangher a premiership backman, Langford and Simpkin premiership midfielders

 

[MinerBoy]

Let's not pretend there weren't average players in our team. Schoenmakers is a premiership forward, Spangher a premiership backman, Langford and Simpkin premiership midfielders

Simpkin was a premiership sub, rather than premiership midfielder but yes we had a few players who weren't A grade lol.

 

[Leeda]

I just had a postgasm

ruffling the feathers of our super intelligent rapture... you're going to have to make an effort
to say we are driving the right bus..

 

[Leeda]

ruffling the feathers of our super intelligent rapture... you're going to have to make an effort
to say we are driving the right bus..

wonders will never cease... OOOOO

 

[imadodgyumpire]

I'll give you one thing the 07 and 08 Geelong sides had in common. They both lost to Hawthorn sides that were far inferior to the 2014 Hawthorn side.

I disagree with this.

You make sweeping statement comparing one GF winning side to another from the same club. Neutral fans don't give s s**t to bother the merit of it. But thank to our exchange over the past few days. I disagree and think the 08 Hawks would comfortably account for the 14 team. I think you Hawks fans get caught up with the meaning of the 14 GF (A redemption GF win. Swans can't troll you over 12. Knowing Geelong never got a redemption GF win. It was a back to back GF win) and just assume it was better. I also think you guys think because it was the middle of 3 GF wins on the trot, that must mean 14 was some sort of peak. That's not true, and is wrong.

Both Hawks teams finished second on the ladder, beating the first placed team in the GF. The 14 team was 50/50, the 08 team were underdogs. If they paled each other, 08 would get the job done.

- 08 Hodge would not have let the older one get the better of him. At his physical peak. Lighter, quicker, and just as strong as 14 Hodgey was. There would've been no gifts like what Rohan handed to him, or opportunities for goals form the boundary that you knew would go on off the boot.

- While MItchell was crap in his attempts to quieten Ablett in the 08 GF and great in the 14 GF. The 08 Mitchell would've been more effective taggin the 14 Mitchell. Ablett is by a mile a better player and tagging him was pointless. However, Mitchell's cheap shot tactic would've worked a treat on a player of limited ability as himself. Mitchell should've been NS winner in 14, and I still wonder if Longmire was on the take that day allowing him a free run.

- Can you imagine how hard the 08 Hawks would've laughed had they been up against the 14 defence?

- As you'd remember, Buddy often rooted Lake. In fact in the 14 GF, when playing in a forward line for a team getting smashed, he still rooted Lake, who lowered his colours playing a s**t game against Buddy.

- Can you imagine Gibson against the 08 forwards? Gods know how stupid he'd have looked. Dew would've barged him aside and kicked 5!

- In 14, Cyril was a negligible presence. 08 Cyril would've run all over the 14 defence.

- The 08 team played a far greater opposition. Despite Geelong 07/08 being 1-1 in GFs, which is the same score as the 12/14 Swans, they'll be remembered as a much better team. They're just in those seasons alone still in the conversation for best ever team. The Swans of the last decade will not be thoughtt of so highly in any context.

- Despite a much easier task from the beginning, and having the benefit of the Swans giving up before halftime, the 14 Hawks were only 22pts better than the 08 team. Less than a goal a quarter.

- Despite playing s**t, Geelong were still in the game at 3/4 time. They were still going for it even if nothing was working. The 14 Swans thought they'd do the same thing as 12. When that didn't work, they did nothing. 14 Hawks had a free run.

- Winning teams lifting off the gas, when a game is over as a contest in their favour like the 14 did (and 15), is actually a sign of softness. "We don't have to. The game's over. There's no point. It's too hard.".

The 08 Hawks played all the way. This is partly why Geelong never recovered from errors. With a softer team (like the 14 Hawks), they'd have played Geelong back in the game and may've even conceded the lead (Even if they still ended up winning).

All the 08 Hawks would have to do was go toe to toe with the 14 team, and the 14 team would've relented.

Despite 14 Geelong being a far weaker team than 07/08 Geelong, they still beat Hawthorn in 14.

- These are a number of reasons why the 08 Hawks would beat the 14 team. You can't deny it, they were a much better team. I reckon by 5-6 goals.