Autopsy Geelong lose to Richmond by 26 points.. but it really wasnt that close

[Vdubs]

Well he has always played good games in the ruck, or on the wing, but in finals against the very best, I don’t think that’s his best position for this team. I’m not sure anyone can say we’ve improved yet until we see what we’ve got in finals. Against WC & Richmond this year we’ve been found wanting when the heat was really on, Collingwood similarly.

Maybe I’m a bit harsh or expect too much but there are a lot of players in this team with question marks over their ability to handle big games and fierce pressure. I’d much rather Blitz down back than Hendo.

Effectively, we were better last year, at 11-1, and then 5-5; and we beat WCE twice, including a final.
We have not improved, yet we have not gone backwards.
Many "experts" predicted we would drop out of the 8.
What we have done is handled the very challenging season these hubs have posed, and again put ourselves in contention, and with less reliance on Danger and Selwood.

 

[Vdubs]

I'm open to the possibility of co-incidence, but this is less convincing then the years you spent insisting that Essendon would come good.

What is your issue? That I did not address you directly? Just reading through the pages of arguments here, it seems farcical to have to suggest that a team that is likely to go BTB is doing so with not much skill. I'm comfortable just putting my thoughts out there and if anyone is motivated to read and reply, good, as you did. Maybe it was directed more at you than others.
What on earth does Essendon coming good have to do with this? And as you say, in years gone by?/They have had an unfortunate year with injuries. I have very little reason to think about them.

 

[Landgraft]

What is your issue? That I did not address you directly? Just reading through the pages of arguments here, it seems farcical to have to suggest that a team that is likely to go BTB is doing so with not much skill. I'm comfortable just putting my thoughts out there and if anyone is motivated to read and reply, good, as you did. Maybe it was directed more at you than others.
What on earth does Essendon coming good have to do with this? And as you say, in years gone by?/They have had an unfortunate year with injuries. I have very little reason to think about them.

Very stream of consciousness response, cool stuff. I'll leave the allusion where it belongs, just to demonstrate that I was not convinced by a particular claim.

If you want feel free to read what I've actually said about Richmond rather than just relying on the knee jerk reaction. Skill may have been a suboptimal choice of word but the original point stands and is entirely relevant, despite their success in recent years.

Even the media sideshow was referencing chaos vs control as their own crude description of contrasting game styles. It's not that difficult to discern what is actually being said, but feel free to just go off I suppose.

 

[cats_09]

Tommy Stewart highlights

 

[catscratchfever]

A lot of criticism of Sav... I remember when Nicnat (another Fijian) started out. He wasn't that different to Sav: a big skinny kid with a leap who could take the occasional speccie and get a hit-out or 2 but not too much else. Nicnat didn't really star until his mid-20s. Give Sav time, he'll be OK - remember, he debuted at 19 and is now just 22 and has played only 32 senior games + he missed most of the 2018 season with a broken leg in that time... That's not to say he should stay in the team or not for the next few matches - I'll leave that to the MC - but cut him some slack for the long-term!

 

[Ricketz]

I value you your insight. What you say makes sense, I would however have him inthe next game to see if it is going to work with the better players around him.

Thanks mate, the feeling is reciprocated. To be honest, I get stuck in selling the story sometimes and it often comes across as being welded to the idea. But really, I will be ok with either option. To be fair, after spending about two days trying to say that Friday's game was an aberration, it would be tough to hang him out to dry when he really didn't have a shocker. He deserves another crack.

 

[Ricketz]

It was just showing you how quickly Biggy_Boy was on the CS thread. You asked where he had been. No Big deal.



BEING AT A PARTY- NOW THAT COULD BE A BIG DEAL!!!?

Mine had nothing to do with Friday's game, and was made to point out that he has a history of regurgitating the same rubbish whenever someone expresses any optimism about our finals chances. He is like that sad bloke at parties who lives a miserable life so has to drag everyone else down to the same level.

 

[Ricketz]

It's interesting looking at the stats for the game compared to the same stats in last years prelim, they are very similar in what we won and lost. We dominated disposals in both games (kicks and handballs), comfortably won contested and uncontested possessions, had more marks, won the clearances in both games. But we lost the tackle counts, lost the I50 counts (not by a lot though), and the biggest difference of all is we were flogged in marks I50 in both games.

Given we have one of the best defenses in the league the marks I50 have to indicate a difference in how the ball was coming in, it was quite evident on Friday night that we were bombing the ball in and Tigers were able to intercept all night long, conversely we lost a lot of ball due to turnovers where our defense was caught in transition and they were able to get the ball in quickly before we were setup.

I really think Rohan in the current form adds so much to our forward line, he provides a fast lead that leaves defenders accountable, he is very good at getting to marking contests and bringing the ball to ground when the positioning favors the defender, and obviously his I50 pressure is fantastic.

Yeah, good comment. I very much agree.

 

[Ricketz]

Yes, the boys have been playing well, and have changed tempo mid game, at will, quite successully. Acknowledged.

But against the Tigers I thought they looked harried, uncoordinated, and genuinely lost for answers.

They ran rings around our forward line and moved the ball much better.

Yes, we have guys to come back, but so do they, and as much as I revere Selwood and Gaz neither of them are quick, and I'm not sure how they'll cope with being swarmed the moment they touch the ball. Menegola and Danger struggled with it, and the team as a whole became indecisive, scared to move the ball quickly, which then amplified the pressure.

If it helps, speed wasn't what beat Jarvis, Close, or Fogarty. Vlastuin and Grimes aren't particularly fast, and certainly not faster than two of those guys.

You are not sure how Selwood and Gaz will handle being corralled? I'm not sure if you are genuinely being serious. The two least tackle -able players of the last twenty years? You are having to work hard to maintain this concern, I'm guessing?

 

[Ricketz]

Oh' I see. Laugh away at my reply and yet your moronic statement that Richmond, who recently won a grand final by 15 goals, has relatively low skills compared to the rest of the competition

Yep your right, Houli, Martin, Edwards, Grimes, Broad, Short . . . low skilled and it is only their manic pressure which wins them games of football.
Quite an incredible statement by someone who I thought knew a bit about the game. Low skilled! lol.

Mate you spend more time lauding Richmond than you do the Cats. You're on the wrong board. Why maintain the charade? It's a bust. Broad, lol.

 

[Ricketz]

Effectively, we were better last year, at 11-1, and then 5-5; and we beat WCE twice, including a final.
We have not improved, yet we have not gone backwards.
Many "experts" predicted we would drop out of the 8.
What we have done is handled the very challenging season these hubs have posed, and again put ourselves in contention, and with less reliance on Danger and Selwood.

Seriously Vdubs? You see no improvement at all in Guthrie, Menegola, Hawkins, Dangerfield, O'Connor, Rohan, Henry, Bews? Anyone?

 

[Ricketz]

Velocity or speed as you call it can be measured many ways.
Dunno what Richmond team you've seen play in the last few years, but speed is the single No1 most important thing to why they win.
Ball is going forward as much as possible as fast as possible by any means possible.

That's quick ball movement, not necessarily moving the ball quickly. What's the difference?

Quick ball movement. The ball spends as little time as possible in player possession. It is moved on by any means possible.

Moving the ball quickly. Transitioning from point a to point b in the smallest possible amount of time. Moving the ball quickly is best achieved by kicking long, as handballing and running with the ball cannot hope to achieve the velocities achieved by the boot.

Neither have really got anything to do with a players leg speed.

 

[Cataholic]

If it helps, speed wasn't what beat Jarvis, Close, or Fogarty. Vlastuin and Grimes aren't particularly fast, and certainly not faster than two of those guys.

You are not sure how Selwood and Gaz will handle being corralled? I'm not sure if you are genuinely being serious. The two least tackle -able players of the last twenty years? You are having to work hard to maintain this concern, I'm guessing?

As stated previously, any reference I make to 'speed' is about the decision making process, not so much the physical transfer of the ball.

And yes, I do wonder about Selwood and Gaz, as good as they have been, because Father Time is starting to take a noticeable toll on them.

 

[Ricketz]

What is your issue? That I did not address you directly? Just reading through the pages of arguments here, it seems farcical to have to suggest that a team that is likely to go BTB is doing so with not much skill. I'm comfortable just putting my thoughts out there and if anyone is motivated to read and reply, good, as you did. Maybe it was directed more at you than others.
What on earth does Essendon coming good have to do with this? And as you say, in years gone by?/They have had an unfortunate year with injuries. I have very little reason to think about them.

And yet, in both of their flag years they ranked 1st (2017) and 2nd (2019) for clangers per game.

In 2017 they ranked last for effective disposals and disposal efficiency. In 2019 they had improved, but only to mid table. This year, they are still mid table for effective disposals, but disposal efficiency has improved. They remain second worst in the comp for clangers per game.

It may seem farcical to suggest it, without confirming first, but Landgraft was correct when he made that comment.

 

[Ricketz]

As stated previously, any reference I make to 'speed' is about the decision making process, not so much the physical transfer of the ball.

And yes, I do wonder about Selwood and Gaz, as good as they have been, because Father Time is starting to take a noticeable toll on them.

Just clarifying. You mention both movement of the ball and decision making in the one sentence.

But your criticism of Joel and Gaz is specifically leg speed. So it doesn't match.

 

[God Mode]

Effectively, we were better last year, at 11-1, and then 5-5; and we beat WCE twice, including a final.
We have not improved, yet we have not gone backwards.
Many "experts" predicted we would drop out of the 8.
What we have done is handled the very challenging season these hubs have posed, and again put ourselves in contention, and with less reliance on Danger and Selwood.

I disagree with this. Whilst we havent improved in ladder position and certainly not in our performance against Richmond, the way we've been beating teams suggests to me we are a much stronger team both in mind and body. Consistency was always an issue as we saw going 5-5 in the back half of last year. We are much more consistent this year and have found ways to win in games where we'd have normally lost in any other year. We simply look "sound". The final test will be whether we can finally go up a gear in finals rather than down. Although, I felt last years finals was a step in the right direction compared to the years prior. I'm hopeful the trend continues.

 

[Ricketz]

What state do you live in?

Denial. I'm in one of those border cop towns keeping Gladys safe.

And don't stress, party was a very loose description. Work dinner would have been a better description.

 

[Ricketz]

wow. Just wow. what bizarre logic.

so you want sav to run to where hawkins is cos sav should know that geelong players wont kick it to him? sav getting too near hawkins is the exact argument some posters use to say sav shouldnt be in the team. And you argue he shouldnt be in the side because he is standing to far away from hawkins.

also just wow that you think our players should refuse to kick to him even though he probably has the best hands in the team when on.

if richmond players are running off sav to go to hawkins then the only player who has made the error is the player who kicked it. He should of kicked it to sav.

ps. After fridays game richmond players wont be running off sav before the ball is kicked anymore. So your point is now mute as ridiculous and illogical as it was.

That's exactly where he was running which allowed Grimes to easily reach Hawkins, and he shouldn't have been. You are doing it again. The rest of the crap below that is you making s**t up and getting angry at it.

 

[Ricketz]

Give it a spell mate

The opening minute of the 3rd qtr of last years PF ( where the 1st goal in the 2nd half was vital ) Prestia took the ball from the centre ball hitout and at a million miles an hour hit Lynch with a brilliant pass - unstoppable - Geel couldnt do a thing about it - and Richmond got that vital 1st goal

I would call that - high skill

He is actually correct. Do you think the term "chaos ball" was coined because of their silky transition?

 

[Cataholic]

Just clarifying. You mention both movement of the ball and decision making in the one sentence.

But your criticism of Joel and Gaz is specifically leg speed. So it doesn't match.

Two issues.

Rapid decision making helps move the ball quicker. Overall team issue.

Leg speed also helps when trying to break away from a contest. My query with Selwood and Gaz is that they'll been given very close attention and don't have the leg speed to break away any more. They can handball, but that's where the Tigers will try and force the turnover.

If they do find space, then their use of the ball will come to the fore. Will they find it?

 

[Ricketz]

From the Catsmedia post match lessons write up:
"But the questions for Cats coaches to ponder is both how the Cats were moving the ball further up the ground and also what personnel to put around Hawkins. It was a baptism of fire for Ben Jarvis who had to become the replacement for Hawkins’ normal tag team partner Gary Rohan. Jarvis was able to show great aerial ability for a mid-sized forward but Rohan’s forward half pressure has been unmatched in the AFL this season."

I feel this vindicates the conclusions I drew in my lengthy post reply to Vdubs. Or they were being lazy and stole it. Not sure why they were pumping up Jarvis' marking ability, though. He took one contested mark for the game outside the fifty arc, and only two others uncontested in a game where we took 30 more marks than we have averaged this season.

 

[00VicWard001]

Speed in terms of players is the one we have no measure on. You can try and measure speed of ball movement in various ways, but without access to the CD metrics that are reserved for commercial sale to clubs it's very hard to break down meaningfully.

But yes, I largely agree with your point. And that's a key part of why they're not a high skill side in terms of execution - they aren't trying to play neatly most of the time, so commit skill errors (at a rate which clearly they find acceptable/hasn't hurt them too much).

‎Whateley on Apple Podcasts

‎Sport · 2024

podcasts.apple.com

This was in the Chris Scott thread on here and I thought you'd like it.

Craig Jennings talks about how in the case of chaos vs control, chaos is more forgiving and works better in finals where there are more mistakes. I think it's a strong support of your point about high skill/low skill games, which I agree with.

Richmond have dumbed down their game and kept it real simple. They are highly drilled and incredibly effective at the gross motor component of the game. Every play knows that they just bang it forward and they surge onto it. It's not an easy thing to do, and in its own way it requires a higher skill - but not in ball handling and passing - rather it requires commitment and a swarm mentality, so that they can win more than they lose. The other part of this is that they can score effectively from this gameplay as they rush it forward at such a frenetic pace that opposition defenders are caught out in the middle of the ground, simply trying to send the ball over the boundary to force the Tigers to slow down and allow their teammates to get back into the defensive half. There were so many moments where our defenders where doing their best to knock it over the boundary line because we were being overrun, when a Tigers player just tapped it forward and allowed it to remain in play and they could hit an open player running back towards their goals or a 1v1 forward contest. Generally, unless you are Scarlett or Rance or McGovern, these days 1v1 ends up in the forwards favour.

Adding to this, this requires the Tigers to have a very disciplined defensive team that have to be ready for the ball to go back over the heads of their mids and forwards.

To beat it, which of course can happen, requires some alternative play. You could out-Richmond Richmond. It requires alot of deadly small forwards - which I think suits Collingwood or WB. Or you could be a high skill controlling the ball and territory team like Geelong, GWS or the Eagles (not sure what Port or Brisbane are to be honest, I haven't watched their games).

What Geelong do, can work. Clearly, some of the top sides, Geelong, GWS and the Eagles have some serious coaching power and player talent between them, and they have gone down this path to try and beat Richmond.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

I disagree with this. Whilst we havent improved in ladder position and certainly not in our performance against Richmond, the way we've been beating teams suggests to me we are a much stronger team both in mind and body. Consistency was always an issue as we saw going 5-5 in the back half of last year. We are much more consistent this year and have found ways to win in games where we'd have normally lost in any other year. We simply look "sound". The final test will be whether we can finally go up a gear in finals rather than down. Although, I felt last years finals was a step in the right direction compared to the years prior. I'm hopeful the trend continues.

One thing i noticed - very evident Frid night ( and other games between the teams ) is Martin ( who is a tremendous player ) when he is forward of centre - Geelong have got no idea at all how to control him - or limit the damage

 

[Tiger71]

Also, caveat - just my opinion. I'd be interested to hear alternative interpretations. And on that note, good night.

Hi Ricketz,

I have waited till now to follow up on my post from the preview thread, I did not want to come across as a troll or gloating by posting straight after the game. If any moderator finds this post offensive, please delete it as that is not my intention. Just wanted to follow up on some good discourse we have had re system. Also to answer a few questions posed before the game that I have not replied too due to the nature of how we posters can react so close to a game.


In my preview I mentioned that your forward line would struggle to handle our new back line system we have incorporated in the latter part of this year that focuses on elite speed, the ability to kick over the press with a lot of 80 meter players. A few asked, what I meant by elite speed? I should have used a better term, but I was mainly speaking about our back line in Balta, Markov ( reason he is playing over Broad), Short, Houli, Vlaustin, Grimes and Baker. All these back men have the elite trait to be able to do repeatable burst sprints for long periods in games.

They have the ability to break away from their man or space they are protecting at speed to impact a contest, once the ball is either won or on the ground, they again burst either on the spread to form a offensive pathway or burst away with ball in hand. They also are if the ball is again turned over have the ability to again, hit full speed to close with their original opponent. Some cases they get caught out if they make a poor decision but more often then not they are successful.

It was the reason why I was confident that the Hawkins island would not work against our method.

Now I am not disputing Rohan being out was a loss for you guys, tho I am not convinced it was as great an impact as you may think but hey we are both allowed to favor our clubs. I do hope we get the rematch as the questions of what an impact would Rohan, Ablett and Selwood make V our ins of Astbury, Edwards, and Prestia would be great to answer.

I do however would like to address the point re skill.

My belief is that pretty footy does not equal skilled footy. Some of you have raised good points but what has not been stated which i feel is highly skillful, and I am not alone in my thinking of this, is that with the "surge" style we play, its easy to miss the fact we always, and I mean always break and change lanes during the "surge". That is highly skillful as all clubs are trained to stop the oppo from changing lanes and we do it consistently.

It's something that I credit Hardwick with. We are not clean by foot, so changing lanes by switching the play by foot, for a team like ours while we were developing, was killing us. So what we do now, and it was on display often on Friday night, we may receive the ball in the right back pocket. One of our backs would handball to someone inside to widen the defenders, then receive the handball back. Now he has space, he will short kick down the line to a receiver or handball directly to a runner running past. Once that transition is done, we always go corridor. Once in the corridor we either go direct or switch lane again to spread the defense then enter 50. That is the reason we always have less disposals the our opposition because we dont muck around with it.

To me, you have to have skill to consistently be able to perform that function with the speed in which we do it. Often its under 10 seconds and we are inside 50.

Anyway, both sides would have walked away with some clear upside. Lets hope we meet in the GF as considering how consistent you have been in making the top 4, you deserve to be there.

 

[CabWesty]

Brad Gilbert got to #4 on the men's tennis rankings and wrote a book called "Winning Ugly".

He's been called the best in the world at the mental game of tennis. Brad Gilbert's strokes may not be pretty, but looks aren't everything. He has beaten the Tour's biggest names -- all by playing his "ugly" game.

Now, in "Winning Ugly" Gilbert teaches recreational players how to win more often without necessarily even changing their strokes. The key to success, he says, is to become a better thinking player -- to recognize, analyze, and capitalize. That means outthinking opponents before, during, and after a match; forcing him or her to play "your" game.

You could say Richmond are winning ugly. It's not attractive footy, but it's very very effective.

What I found frustrating on Friday night was watching clusters of unmarked Tigers players working their way upfield ahead of the ball when they were in possession. It wasn't clear on the telecast whether we were marking space or just not keeping up with them. The coaches will have to work on that for when we meet them next.