Geelong: why are they just not good enough?

Partridge

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i just reckon you have to see what you have got underneath. Ablett did have a good season. Maybe he only plays 16 games plus finals next year? He’s a short term solution though.
Taylors back looks absolutely cooked. He moves like an old nan now. And i know about a knackered back. I don’t know enough about your reserves. Are there players who could develop in those roles right now at your club?
There's the problem. We're looking at short term solutions. As great as Ablett has been, in 2020 and the modern game, can you afford to have a part time player? Particularly as now he's at the age where any injury could mean he's done. Massive risk to take.

Taylor we've got cover for - Blicavs, Kolodjashnij, and Henry are a pretty solid key defence trio to me, and there's always Henderson as backup while others are groomed. And because Taylor has been kept, I doubt he'll play seconds. Scott's master plan of a side with 22 defenders might happen at some point.
 

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There's the problem. We're looking at short term solutions. As great as Ablett has been, in 2020 and the modern game, can you afford to have a part time player? Particularly as now he's at the age where any injury could mean he's done. Massive risk to take.

Taylor we've got cover for - Blicavs, Kolodjashnij, and Henry are a pretty solid key defence trio to me, and there's always Henderson as backup while others are groomed. And because Taylor has been kept, I doubt he'll play seconds. Scott's master plan of a side with 22 defenders might happen at some point.
i reckon a PT forward could still work if managed correctly. Boomer Harvey could of gone on, even if it was for another season. But, say you chose to rest him v interstate teams, it’s actually against a WCE or a Lions where you need him. It will be interesting to see where it heads.

I read some of your supporters reactions to Kolos game in the prelim, but i rate him. I think he shows something. And you’re correct, with Henry and Blicavs down there, Taylor is not needed. Blicavs on a wing actually denies you an extra mid. It’s crazy stuff. That’s just my take anyway.
 

marty36

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There's the problem. We're looking at short term solutions. As great as Ablett has been, in 2020 and the modern game, can you afford to have a part time player? Particularly as now he's at the age where any injury could mean he's done. Massive risk to take.

Taylor we've got cover for - Blicavs, Kolodjashnij, and Henry are a pretty solid key defence trio to me, and there's always Henderson as backup while others are groomed. And because Taylor has been kept, I doubt he'll play seconds. Scott's master plan of a side with 22 defenders might happen at some point.
It happened at the crows this year

We played older players in and out of the two's Like Betts JJ Jacobs Gibbs Douglas

There is no point in having older players on the list playing seconds footy then if you are going to play the younger ones, there will be inconsistency but they will develop

Have Geelong got the balance right, I guess we will find out



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rado

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There's the problem. We're looking at short term solutions. As great as Ablett has been, in 2020 and the modern game, can you afford to have a part time player? Particularly as now he's at the age where any injury could mean he's done. Massive risk to take.

Taylor we've got cover for - Blicavs, Kolodjashnij, and Henry are a pretty solid key defence trio to me, and there's always Henderson as backup while others are groomed. And because Taylor has been kept, I doubt he'll play seconds. Scott's master plan of a side with 22 defenders might happen at some point.
I like your thinking ....... after three failed finals campaigns 13, 14 & 15 our list, whilst reasonable required change. This included an overhaul of the leadership group, assistant coaching group and senior players including Vickery, Deledio, Newman etc

With a sprinkling of youth, young type trade targets in Caddy, Nankervis and Prestia things started to turn.

It’s not that the cats have done none of this, but for some reason Scott’s preference is still based on a senior core delivering, including Ablett and now Jenkins which is short term.

I’m sure Wells will draft well and if these kids can be fast tracked ...... anything can happen, because there are not many holes in the current list.
 

queensberryrules

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My contact down at Corio has said there are a couple of points that came out of Scott's recently completed review:

- Shut up, stop making noise outside club, don't speak to the media much, control your mouth, don't motivate oppo.
- Learn players best possies and trust them. Don't try to be a chess master, be a modern day coach, manage the coaching.
- Stop eating ice cream, chocolates and sweet food. Constipation and explosive wind-breaking effects mood and atmosphere at the club.

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Partridge

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i reckon a PT forward could still work if managed correctly. Boomer Harvey could of gone on, even if it was for another season. But, say you chose to rest him v interstate teams, it’s actually against a WCE or a Lions where you need him. It will be interesting to see where it heads.

I read some of your supporters reactions to Kolos game in the prelim, but i rate him. I think he shows something. And you’re correct, with Henry and Blicavs down there, Taylor is not needed. Blicavs on a wing actually denies you an extra mid. It’s crazy stuff. That’s just my take anyway.
He's a player who seems to have extremes. When he plays as a key defender, he looks (to me) assured, calm, and very composed. Good reader of the ball and a solid enough defensive mark. Some fans have pointed out quite correctly that he nullified Riewoldt for the majority of the game in the Prelim.

The other side is when he's played either to mind a smaller forward, or even worse on a wing. Then he looks slow, fumbly, and nervous. So for me I would happily play him as a key defender and nowhere else (same as Blicavs). Having players who are very good in one position is not a bad thing. Look at the current premiers.
 

PhatBoy

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My contact down at Corio has said there are a couple of points that came out of Scott's recently completed review:

- Shut up, stop making noise outside club, don't speak to the media much, control your mouth, don't motivate oppo.
- Learn players best possies and trust them. Don't try to be a chess master, be a modern day coach, manage the coaching.
- Stop eating ice cream, chocolates and sweet food. Constipation and explosive wind-breaking effects mood and atmosphere at the club.

On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app
Hypothetically if this were actually true (barring the last point), they have to take the good with the bad, especially re. Point 2. The obvious place to play Blicavs initially was as a second ruck, and a bit of a utility based on his freak running and - usually at least - fairly reliable skills. It was Scott deciding to remove him from that role and play him in defence that shows those surprise moves DO sometimes work. It worked periodically with Taylor going forward too (you wouldn’t say that move was successful per se but he kicked 4+ in five games during that move). its worked at times when he’s plonked Danger at FF, getting Selwood away from the middle has been a reasonable move. I agree he doesn’t need to be pulling moves out of his backside left right and centre but to cop the moves that do work, we need to be prepared to cop ones that don’t as well.

re. Point one, I don’t think he says much wrong, he’s fairly balanced most of the time with what he says. I would say that the amount of exposure he has, rather than what he says when he has it, is more of an issue.
 

Sttew

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Hypothetically if this were actually true (barring the last point), they have to take the good with the bad, especially re. Point 2. The obvious place to play Blicavs initially was as a second ruck, and a bit of a utility based on his freak running and - usually at least - fairly reliable skills. It was Scott deciding to remove him from that role and play him in defence that shows those surprise moves DO sometimes work. It worked periodically with Taylor going forward too (you wouldn’t say that move was successful per se but he kicked 4+ in five games during that move). its worked at times when he’s plonked Danger at FF, getting Selwood away from the middle has been a reasonable move. I agree he doesn’t need to be pulling moves out of his backside left right and centre but to cop the moves that do work, we need to be prepared to cop ones that don’t as well.

re. Point one, I don’t think he says much wrong, he’s fairly balanced most of the time with what he says. I would say that the amount of exposure he has, rather than what he says when he has it, is more of an issue.
The most common complaint I hear about Scott from opposition supporters is that he comes across as smug. I didn't like him as a player for the same reason, but he is what he is. Maybe he is a product of his upbringing; his father died when the brothers were young.

We saw a change in Buckley's demeanour this year. Some might say it was fake...I don't know.

There is no doubting Scott can coach; his win/loss record is still No.1
 
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PhatBoy

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The most common complaint I hear about Scott from opposition supporters is that he comes across as smug. I didn't like him as a player for the same reason, but he is what he is. Maybe he is a product of his upbringing; his father dies when the brothers were young.

We saw a change in Buckley's demeanour this year. Some might say it was fake...I don't know.

There is no doubting Scott can coach; his win/loss record is still No.1
This. I can definitely see an argument to say that he has tactical and match committee issues in finals when the pressure goes up, the numbers support it. But to listen to a lot of the criticism you’d think he couldn’t coach an under 7s team to a 50-50 season.

the numbers don’t lie. You don’t fluke your way to a 70 per cent career record.
 

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Forward Press

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This. I can definitely see an argument to say that he has tactical and match committee issues in finals when the pressure goes up, the numbers support it. But to listen to a lot of the criticism you’d think he couldn’t coach an under 7s team to a 50-50 season.

the numbers don’t lie. You don’t fluke your way to a 70 per cent career record.
Some argue that the winning percentage was inflated by:

1) His early years still having the likes of Bartel, Chapman, SJ, Enright etc running around - all players capable of single-handedly dragging teams across the line
2) Geelong's Fortress Kardinia being very difficult to play at (especially for interstate teams which often get shuffled down there) which gives them a virtually guaranteed 6 or more wins a year no matter how bad the team may be in that particular season

Do you agree with those assertions?
 

O_Grinners17

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This. I can definitely see an argument to say that he has tactical and match committee issues in finals when the pressure goes up, the numbers support it. But to listen to a lot of the criticism you’d think he couldn’t coach an under 7s team to a 50-50 season.

the numbers don’t lie. You don’t fluke your way to a 70 per cent career record.
ngl Scott is a good coach but a W/L record no matter how good aint gonna be a factor if you can't win in Finals
 

PhatBoy

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Some argue that the winning percentage was inflated by:

1) His early years still having the likes of Bartel, Chapman, SJ, Enright etc running around - all players capable of single-handedly dragging teams across the line
2) Geelong's Fortress Kardinia being very difficult to play at (especially for interstate teams which often get shuffled down there) which gives them a virtually guaranteed 6 or more wins a year no matter how bad the team may be in that particular season

Do you agree with those assertions?
Some argue that the winning percentage was inflated by:

1) His early years still having the likes of Bartel, Chapman, SJ, Enright etc running around - all players capable of single-handedly dragging teams across the line
2) Geelong's Fortress Kardinia being very difficult to play at (especially for interstate teams which often get shuffled down there) which gives them a virtually guaranteed 6 or more wins a year no matter how bad the team may be in that particular season

Do you agree with those assertions?
92-48 from 2014 onwards. Hardly terrible, is it.
Away from our ‘cheat ground’ (and considering our home games in Melbourne are literally ALWAYS against the actual tenants of the ground, outside of interstate finalists, this is an actual AWAY match figure, not a neutral figure):
52-41-2

it’s 49-33-2 in home and away matches.

So yeah I think to sum it up, you’ve got nothing.

I can’t be bothered looking up figures but I doubt many coaches would have those sort of percentages AWAY from home.
And that’s with the champion team dissolved.

the figures would obviously get better with 11-13 included
 

Partridge

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just to reiterate:

the thrust of the post about Dangerfield was that he went missing in the second half against Richmond, thus highlighting the ‘fact’ that he goes missing in big games. Which completely disregards the fact that generally in his 7 finals with Geelong he’s been exceptional.

therefore a counter-comparison citing ONE game is perfectly valid because it’s exactly what was done with Dangerfield.
If people make stupid generalisations about players based on 40 minutes of footy, expect a stupid one back
I wouldn't go that far. It's somewhere in between.

He's played some great finals for us. He's played some poor ones for us. He's also played some ok ones. It's not one or the other.
 

Partridge

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In big games (cut throat finals) over recent years, the cats have fallen short. This is the thrust of the thread ..... the question is why?

To reference Jack Riewoldt, who over the same period is a two time premiership player is ridiculous.
Too many players with flaws. They get covered up during home and away, but in finals they get exposed.
 

PhatBoy

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I wouldn't go that far. It's somewhere in between.

He's played some great finals for us. He's played some poor ones for us. He's also played some ok ones. It's not one or the other.
I can’t remember specifics off the top of my head but in another thread I actually looked into it and numerically his averages stack up fairly identically to his home and away output. So while I won’t dispute that he’s probably had some quiet ones, he’s statistically no more likely to be great or poor in a final than he is in a home and away match
 

PhatBoy

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Too many players with flaws. They get covered up during home and away, but in finals they get exposed.
This. It’s worth noting because even though it’s obvious, it often gets forgotten, every final you play is against decent opposition. And for a regular top four team, you are invariably playing a side who is either also top four, or has a finals win or two under their belt already.
 

catscollector

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Every team who makes the finals would hope they play Geelong week 1.

When Collingwood supporters realized West Coast had effectively flushed their season down the drain and handed Collingwood 4th spot, they were celebrating knowing they faced us. As it turns out, they had reason to be in such high spirits.

Cats are just not a physically imposing team and everyone knows it.
 

Boston tiger

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Every team who makes the finals would hope they play Geelong week 1.

When Collingwood supporters realized West Coast had effectively flushed their season down the drain and handed Collingwood 4th spot, they were celebrating knowing they faced us. As it turns out, they had reason to be in such high spirits.

Cats are just not a physically imposing team and everyone knows it.
I thought they had that big strong feel about them that the great Geelong teams seem to have.
They weren’t far off it this year. Not having a Ottens type and Hawkins for the prelim probably didn’t help.
 

iameviljez

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Learn players best possies and trust them. Don't try to be a chess master, be a modern day coach, manage the coaching.
Yes, but also no - we can't play everyone as CHB and rover/centre... though Blicavs needs to be kept at fullback forever now.

I think that the best eight or so players tend to pick themselves in their positions, and the rest of the team slots in around them. At Geelong, that's Blicavs at FB, Dangerfield and Duncan on-ball, Stewart as third defensive tall, Hawkins at FF, Ablett and Dalhaus as half-forwards, Miers in a FP.

If that means that players like Selwood (at 32) and Guthrie don't get to play in the engine room so much, then so be it.
 

captain blood 17

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He's a player who seems to have extremes. When he plays as a key defender, he looks (to me) assured, calm, and very composed. Good reader of the ball and a solid enough defensive mark. Some fans have pointed out quite correctly that he nullified Riewoldt for the majority of the game in the Prelim.

The other side is when he's played either to mind a smaller forward, or even worse on a wing. Then he looks slow, fumbly, and nervous. So for me I would happily play him as a key defender and nowhere else (same as Blicavs). Having players who are very good in one position is not a bad thing. Look at the current premiers.
sorry for the late reply, i think he looks rock solid as a KD. And he did have a solid game in defence. And i agree, if the guy plays great or consistent football in a certain position, it surely can’t be that hard to figure out maybe play him there.
 

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