News Geelong's position in Essendon investigation and ACC report

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Regardless of whether it can be proved that Essendon took banned drugs, they certainly undertook a program that pushed the legalities to its limits and over-stepped the mark in terms of ethics. There ethos was to quickly build a side based on whatever drug they could get away with, rather than hard work in the gym or nurturing talent. This is a terrible model for football at all levels and IMO has brought the game into disrepute. Regardless of the outcome of the drugs investigation the AFL should send the severest message that such approaches to the game are unacceptable, otherwise all clubs will be forced to adopt the same practices.
 

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Realistically they should as soon as the findings are released next week, as essendon have already admitted guilt.

But then they have also admitted that the whole team has taken the anti obesity drug too, so I can't see the afl suspending the whole team.

Surely they can't keep up the season they are having with all this going on - usually teams need everything to fall in to place & everything working like clockwork to win a flag....
If thats true then the entire list is looking at bans regardless.

Also agree with Jim above, even if lets say they aren't proved guilty (as opposed to being proved innocent) then the AFL will give them a new level of anal raping for bringing the game into disrepute, there is no way the AFL would want clubs to do what the bombers have done and likewise they will want to look strong during all this, any crappy 500k fine and a wave of the finger will be very bad PR.
 

FredLeDeux

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Realistically they should as soon as the findings are released next week, as essendon have already admitted guilt.

But then they have also admitted that the whole team has taken the anti obesity drug too, so I can't see the afl suspending the whole team.

Surely they can't keep up the season they are having with all this going on - usually teams need everything to fall in to place & everything working like clockwork to win a flag....
In relation to players, once ASADA completes its investigation, makes its findings as to guilt or innocence, and recommends penalties to the AFL, the AFL must follow its Anti-Doping Code, including hearings before the AFL Tribunal, and then the AFL Appeals Board, and then possibly the Court of Arbitration for Sport.
Any attempt by the AFL to circumvent its own ADC procedures would be successfully challenged in court.
We are looking at months before ASADA even completes its part of the process. It has part-interviewed only one of the 31 rugby players, and Essendon player interviews are not due to start until (I think) next week.
It would not surprise if the ADC procedures in relation to players are still incomplete when this season ends.
Then there is the AFL's investigation and hearings process under its own general rules against Essendon and its officials.
Following which, legal proceedings may challenge the AFL procedures, rules and penalties, which may further delay enforcement of any penalties.
Unless, of course, ASADA, Essendon, officials and AFL come to a satisfactory arrangement which is also acceptable to WADA, interested pollies, and the ARL.
 
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In relation to players, once ASADA completes its investigation, makes its findings as to guilt or innocence, and recommends penalties to the AFL, the AFL must follow its Anti-Doping Code, including hearings before the AFL Tribunal, and then the AFL Appeals Board, and then possibly the Court of Arbitration for Sport.
Any attempt by the AFL to circumvent its own ADC procedures would be successfully challenged in court.
We are looking at months before ASADA even completes its part of the process. It has part-interviewed only one of the 31 rugby players, and Essendon player interviews are not due to start until (I think) next week.
It would not surprise if the ADC procedures in relation to players are still incomplete when this season ends.
Then there is the AFL's investigation and hearings process under its own general rules against Essendon and its officials.
Following which, legal proceedings may challenge the AFL procedures, rules and penalties, which may further delay enforcement of any penalties.
Unless, of course, ASADA, Essendon, officials and AFL come to a satisfactory arrangement which is also acceptable to WADA, interested pollies, and the ARL.
This is the huge problem I'm having, what happens if they make finals (lets say, hopefully, not win the flag) and then are found guilty, what grounds does the side that finished 9th have in relation to having a cheating club push them out of the finals? What about those who lost to the bombers and missed top 2, top 4, home final etc, what about if they beat someone in the finals?
None of this sits well with me and if they are found guilty I feel 2013 might leave a bad taste in everyones mouth if they are somewhat successful.
 

topic97

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If thats true then the entire list is looking at bans regardless.

Also agree with Jim above, even if lets say they aren't proved guilty (as opposed to being proved innocent) then the AFL will give them a new level of anal raping for bringing the game into disrepute, there is no way the AFL would want clubs to do what the bombers have done and likewise they will want to look strong during all this, any crappy 500k fine and a wave of the finger will be very bad PR.
But then the AFL will be wary in risking loosing essendon members & therefore crowd numbers if they do suspend half or most of the team - fans aren't going to want to watch the Bendigo Gold run around on the mcg.

Vlad is all about the $$$.

I just hope that if they are guilty they drop off & don't contest the grand final - then it won't matter!! :)

And agreed Fred, it's going to take a very long time to come to a resolution & I would be surprised if it happens before the end of the year, let alone September!
 

topic97

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This is the huge problem I'm having, what happens if they make finals (lets say, hopefully, not win the flag) and then are found guilty, what grounds does the side that finished 9th have in relation to having a cheating club push them out of the finals? What about those who lost to the bombers and missed top 2, top 4, home final etc, what about if they beat someone in the finals?
None of this sits well with me and if they are found guilty I feel 2013 might leave a bad taste in everyones mouth if they are somewhat successful.
Totally agreed.
What about the other teams that you mentioned that missed out because of them?
They put millions into resources every season & to be pipped or have your finals campaign hindered by a bunch of cheats, it just baffles me, if they are proven guilty and admitted it, how it can be allowed to happen?!
 
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Totally agreed.
What about the other teams that you mentioned that missed out because of them?
They put millions into resources every season & to be pipped or have your finals campaign hindered by a bunch of cheats, it just baffles me, if they are proven guilty and admitted it, how it can be allowed to happen?!
Exactly my point, I just cant fathom the repercussions if they allow the bombers to run out the year with no punishment should they be found guilty.
Re: Your other post above, I agree the AFL is all about $$$ but if ASADA recommend say 25 players get banned for 2 years they have no choice but to ban them.
There is a precedent, albeit slightly different, in how the storm were treated by their members and sponsors, does anyone have a quick run down on how that went? Did crowd numbers go down? TV audience? Sponsorship? Membership?
 

vealesy

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I still dont understand how you can call for a team to be suspended BEFORE the investigation is complete?

Maybe Geelong should not be able to compete for the rest of the year because our interviews have not been conducted and we MAY be guilty??
 

topic97

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I still dont understand how you can call for a team to be suspended BEFORE the investigation is complete?

Maybe Geelong should not be able to compete for the rest of the year because our interviews have not been conducted and we MAY be guilty??
But the essendon footy club have ADMITTED to taking banned substances!
If the AFL findings next week back this up, all their info you'd imagine will be handed to ASADA for their investigation.
They are set to interview players next week, if they admit to taking the banned substances, what more proof is needed to condemn the club?!

And our club came out during the week and said they have completed their internal audit & are all clear.
If it comes out after ASADA investigations that they were lying I'll be outraged & disgusted and will wholeheartedly back any penalties.

But they say our great club conducts themselves, I'd say that won't be an outcome.
 

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FredLeDeux

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But the essendon footy club have ADMITTED to taking banned substances!
If the AFL findings next week back this up, all their info you'd imagine will be handed to ASADA for their investigation.
They are set to interview players next week, if they admit to taking the banned substances, what more proof is needed to condemn the club?!
I don't want to throw another spanner in the works, because I don't know (and can't be bothered finding out) what rules of evidence and standard of proof ASADA is bound by under its Act when deciding whether or not players have committed an offence (absent positive tests).
But if these were criminal proceedings, and the club/officials/players were alleged to be criminal co-conspirators, admissions by the club of the alleged criminal offence could not, in most cases, be used as evidence against the other alleged co-conspirators, ie the players.
Just thought I'd throw that one in.;)
 
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I still dont understand how you can call for a team to be suspended BEFORE the investigation is complete?

Maybe Geelong should not be able to compete for the rest of the year because our interviews have not been conducted and we MAY be guilty??
We are talking retrospectively.
I dont know if its possible or not but the competition really needs the findings to come out very soon and sanctions given if found guilty.
For eg: lets say the report is made public in the next few weeks and it says that bomber players have been found to have been injected with the substances in question and more investigation is needed to prove or disprove the particular number of players and systems used etc etc
At that point I think a penalty of not playing for points for the rest of the season is warranted until the full findings are complete.
Like I said above if proven guilty after the season has been completed, how would you feel if lets say they finish top and we finished second, they play an injury hit collingwood and beat them easily while we have a bruising and hard fought win over the hawks and lose the prelim due to injuries. What if a lose to the bombers was the difference between 4th and 5th, or 8th and 9th. Or the difference between playing say the blues at the MCG or the Swans at the SCG. There are issues there that need to be considered by the AFL (I'm sure they are of course).
 
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I don't want to throw another spanner in the works, because I don't know (and can't be bothered finding out) what rules of evidence and standard of proof ASADA is bound by under its Act when deciding whether or not players have committed an offence (absent positive tests).
But if these were criminal proceedings, and the club/officials/players were alleged to be criminal co-conspirators, admissions by the club of the alleged criminal offence could not, in most cases, be used as evidence against the other alleged co-conspirators, ie the players.
Just thought I'd throw that one in.;)
If there is proof that the players took those banned substances (be in positive tests, admissions or written proof) then they are guilty.
Lance Armstrong never had a positive result.
 

Hoffy95

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But the essendon footy club have ADMITTED to taking banned substances!
If the AFL findings next week back this up, all their info you'd imagine will be handed to ASADA for their investigation.
They are set to interview players next week, if they admit to taking the banned substances, what more proof is needed to condemn the club?!

And our club came out during the week and said they have completed their internal audit & are all clear.
If it comes out after ASADA investigations that they were lying I'll be outraged & disgusted and will wholeheartedly back any penalties.

But they say our great club conducts themselves, I'd say that won't be an outcome.
Evans said they have done no such thing.

They certainly haven't denied taking anything though which is as good as an admission.
 

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Regardless of whether it can be proved that Essendon took banned drugs, they certainly undertook a program that pushed the legalities to its limits and over-stepped the mark in terms of ethics. There ethos was to quickly build a side based on whatever drug they could get away with, rather than hard work in the gym or nurturing talent. This is a terrible model for football at all levels and IMO has brought the game into disrepute. Regardless of the outcome of the drugs investigation the AFL should send the severest message that such approaches to the game are unacceptable, otherwise all clubs will be forced to adopt the same practices.
We have a winner!

But Jim Boy, we shouldn't expect posters on BF (as you well know) to be willing or able to discuss (or face) moral/ethical issues. It would mean facing our own conscience wouldn't it, and trying to have a consistent ethical code to live by, who thinks that's important nowadays, and who can be brothered doing the had work to live an upright life according to an upright ethos? ;)

The whole crisis and its unfolding - the reaction of EFC posters, the continued conduct of the EFC, the AFLs likely (or at least perceived) "support" for it brand, etc, etc. - is shameful. :(

While not a direct comparison, and not as serious in pure terms, it's a situation that has all the hall marks of how the Roman Catholic Church has handled its atrocious sexual behaviour.
 

FredLeDeux

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If there is proof that the players took those banned substances (be in positive tests, admissions or written proof) then they are guilty.
Lance Armstrong never had a positive result.
That's all correct, if there is proof they took banned substances, they are guilty.
But I'm saying that ASADA may or may not be able to come up with proof in respect of the players, because it is possible that admissions by Essendon/officials (which, of course, might not exist anyway) might not be legally able to be used as such proof.
They might need admissions from the players.
Which they might or might not get.
 

Willo_

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Interestingly the ziggy report apparently didn't involve talking to the players or dank...
Not really sure what the hell they did for it!!

Also I heard today that any suspensions could be served off season... Playing devils advocate here, maybe the AFL want this to be done at season completion.. Bombers are playing the card of being duped.. Could reduce penalties to 6 months. Then they are banned October to march.. And may not miss any games.. Just wouldn't be able to train at the club, which they would work around anyway..

One more point seeing Carlton tried to do their own digging early last year... Clearly shows other clubs were very away and concerned bout what essendon where up to
 
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That's all correct, if there is proof they took banned substances, they are guilty.
But I'm saying that ASADA may or may not be able to come up with proof in respect of the players, because it is possible that admissions by Essendon/officials (which, of course, might not exist anyway) might not be legally able to be used as such proof.
They might need admissions from the players.
Which they might or might not get.
Not sure about the rules there mate to be honest.
 
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Interestingly the ziggy report apparently didn't involve talking to the players or dank...
Not really sure what the hell they did for it!!

Also I heard today that any suspensions could be served off season... Playing devils advocate here, maybe the AFL want this to be done at season completion.. Bombers are playing the card of being duped.. Could reduce penalties to 6 months. Then they are banned October to march.. And may not miss any games.. Just wouldn't be able to train at the club, which they would work around anyway..

One more point seeing Carlton tried to do their own digging early last year... Clearly shows other clubs were very away and concerned bout what essendon where up to
This is the other side of it aswell, if proven guilty and the club and individuals involved got severely punished (lets say some never to work in footy again, everyone sacked and fined, huge fine and lose of premiership points for the club, draft restrictions etc) but the players got that slap on the wrist (6 month ban taken during the off season) I think most people would be ok with that.
I would be, provided the penalties for the club as I said were severe.
 

FredLeDeux

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Not sure about the rules there mate to be honest.
No, me either, I said that I don't know what legal rules of evidence and standards of proof apply to ASADA decisions, coz it's too hard to look up. Some statutory bodies are not bound by the rules of evidence, so maybe admissions (if any) by club/officials could be used v the players.
 

CatAttack84

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Interestingly the ziggy report apparently didn't involve talking to the players or dank...
Not really sure what the hell they did for it!!
Cannot wait till their annual report comes out, Ziggy would have made a mint for this farce, charging C-level consultant fees. Like he needed the money. lol
 

FredLeDeux

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Cannot wait till their annual report comes out, Ziggy would have made a mint for this farce, charging C-level consultant fees. Like he needed the money. lol
He wouldn't come cheap, a highly-regarded corporate chieftain previously responsible for running the Telstra share issues :rolleyes: and, before that, Kodak's Australian business :rolleyes: .
Be nice if he emulates those successes with Essendon.;)
 

vealesy

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We are talking retrospectively.
I dont know if its possible or not but the competition really needs the findings to come out very soon and sanctions given if found guilty.
For eg: lets say the report is made public in the next few weeks and it says that bomber players have been found to have been injected with the substances in question and more investigation is needed to prove or disprove the particular number of players and systems used etc etc
At that point I think a penalty of not playing for points for the rest of the season is warranted until the full findings are complete.
Like I said above if proven guilty after the season has been completed, how would you feel if lets say they finish top and we finished second, they play an injury hit collingwood and beat them easily while we have a bruising and hard fought win over the hawks and lose the prelim due to injuries. What if a lose to the bombers was the difference between 4th and 5th, or 8th and 9th. Or the difference between playing say the blues at the MCG or the Swans at the SCG. There are issues there that need to be considered by the AFL (I'm sure they are of course).
How would you feel if they were suspended from playing in the AFL and then a year later proven not guilty?

Personally, my feelings are, if found guilty then give them their sanctions, until all information is conclusive and there is no doubt whatsoever of their guilt, and facts are 100% clear on what has happened, competition should continue as per normal. Titles will be stripped retrospectively, you are advocating suspension from competing when still under investigation, which goes against the Rule of Law. Prove their guilt once investigations are irrefutably finished, and subsequent court cases are exhauasted.

Yes, it might take years, but the investigation and legal cases should be given their due process.

Put your pitchfork, HUN, and Robbo Shrine back in the cupboard.

Essendon must be allowed to compete until the WADA says they may not.

If the AFL had sufficient evidence to internally sanction the club, they could have already done so.

Dont hold your breath, this could drag out for years.
 
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How would you feel if they were suspended from playing in the AFL and then a year later proven not guilty?

Personally, my feelings are, if found guilty then give them their sanctions, until all information is conclusive and there is no doubt whatsoever of their guilt, and facts are 100% clear on what has happened, competition should continue as per normal. Titles will be stripped retrospectively, you are advocating suspension from competing when still under investigation, which goes against the Rule of Law. Prove their guilt once investigations are irrefutably finished, and subsequent court cases are exhauasted.

Yes, it might take years, but the investigation and legal cases should be given their due process.

Put your pitchfork, HUN, and Robbo Shrine back in the cupboard.

Essendon must be allowed to compete until the WADA says they may not.

If the AFL had sufficient evidence to internally sanction the club, they could have already done so.

Dont hold your breath, this could drag out for years.
Your not reading it properly, I'm not talking about player suspensions, you say titles will be stripped retrospectively but then what about those clubs who the bombers beat? What happens to the club (lets say the Cats) that loses the grand final to a cheater who won it during the investigation that later proved they cheated?
Again like I said above, what about those clubs who miss out on various things BECAUSE of the bombers.
Look at last weeks result, the bombers completely smashed the pies in the second half, what would happen if the pies miss the finals by 1 game? How would you feel if you were a pies supporter?
 
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