News Geelong's position in Essendon investigation and ACC report

vealesy

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Your not reading it properly, I'm not talking about player suspensions, you say titles will be stripped retrospectively but then what about those clubs who the bombers beat? What happens to the club (lets say the Cats) that loses the grand final to a cheater who won it during the investigation that later proved they cheated?
Again like I said above, what about those clubs who miss out on various things BECAUSE of the bombers.
Look at last weeks result, the bombers completely smashed the pies in the second half, what would happen if the pies miss the finals by 1 game? How would you feel if you were a pies supporter?
Then tough luck.

Im also a Parramatta fan and i wasnt crying when Storm were stripped. They knocked the Eels out in both years finals series. Including a Grand Final.

You do not win the premiership unless you WIN the last game. Against cheats or not. Pretty simple.
 

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FredLeDeux

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Your not reading it properly, I'm not talking about player suspensions, you say titles will be stripped retrospectively but then what about those clubs who the bombers beat? What happens to the club (lets say the Cats) that loses the grand final to a cheater who won it during the investigation that later proved they cheated?
Again like I said above, what about those clubs who miss out on various things BECAUSE of the bombers.
Look at last weeks result, the bombers completely smashed the pies in the second half, what would happen if the pies miss the finals by 1 game? How would you feel if you were a pies supporter?
It's a perfectly legit concern, SG.
The legal system can sometimes compensate fraud victims with a therapeutic dose of damages.
But VFL/AFL and sports generally have not been too good at compensating either direct or indirect victims of, eg, Storm, systematic salary cap rorters Essendon/Carlton/Melbourne, the way back when VFL Grand Final match-fixers, or the millions of subsistence-level 20 cent Indian punters dudded by Hansie Cronje and his ilk.
I don't know the solution, though it seems to me perfectly reasonable, if Essendon win then are proved to have cheated, that the runners-up get the Premiership; but probably a bit of a Pyrrhic victory.
 
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It's a perfectly legit concern, SG.
The legal system can sometimes compensate fraud victims with a therapeutic dose of damages.
But VFL/AFL and sports generally have not been too good at compensating either direct or indirect victims of, eg, Storm, systematic salary cap rorters Essendon/Carlton/Melbourne, the way back when VFL Grand Final match-fixers, or the millions of subsistence-level 20 cent Indian punters dudded by Hansie Cronje and his ilk.
I don't know the solution, though it seems to me perfectly reasonable, if Essendon win then are proved to have cheated, that the runners-up get the Premiership; but probably a bit of a Pyrrhic victory.
I dont either.
But its definitely something that should be a concern for the AFL.
 

topic97

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Then tough luck.

Im also a Parramatta fan and i wasnt crying when Storm were stripped. They knocked the Eels out in both years finals series. Including a Grand Final.

You do not win the premiership unless you WIN the last game. Against cheats or not. Pretty simple.
Ok, look at it from the flip side then - what about the bombers supporters?

I have a heap of mates that are dons supporters that want all this to be over - weather they be guilty or not.
One mate said to me that he is trying as hard as he can not to get excited or optimistic about this season, even though they are flying, because he doesn't want to have his heart ripped out in case the club is stripped of their season.

Now I know there are plenty of muppets that will still claim innocence even when guilty, but do the fair dinkum supporters who have played absolutely no part in their team essentially cheating, deserve to be treated this way?

It's not fair on all accounts & if they are guilty, something needs to be done before the end of the season to save supporters & clubs on both sides!!

Unfortunately it probably won't.
 

vealesy

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It's a perfectly legit concern, SG.
The legal system can sometimes compensate fraud victims with a therapeutic dose of damages.
But VFL/AFL and sports generally have not been too good at compensating either direct or indirect victims of, eg, Storm, systematic salary cap rorters Essendon/Carlton/Melbourne, the way back when VFL Grand Final match-fixers, or the millions of subsistence-level 20 cent Indian punters dudded by Hansie Cronje and his ilk.
I don't know the solution, though it seems to me perfectly reasonable, if Essendon win then are proved to have cheated, that the runners-up get the Premiership; but probably a bit of a Pyrrhic victory.
I completely disagree with that last sentence.

For example, If Hawks were proven to have rorted the cap in 08 i would hope that it was declared no winner. I do not want a sympathy flag. They dont count.
 

FredLeDeux

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I completely disagree with that last sentence.

For example, If Hawks were proven to have rorted the cap in 08 i would hope that it was declared no winner. I do not want a sympathy flag. They dont count.
I can understand both points of view, and I wouldn't have got much joy out of it either - as I said, a Pyrrhic victory.
 

topic97

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I completely disagree with that last sentence.

For example, If Hawks were proven to have rorted the cap in 08 i would hope that it was declared no winner. I do not want a sympathy flag. They dont count.
Why don't they count?!
In 08 we were easily the best team in the comp & that was only our second loss for the year!!

If the team that wins a title cheated to get the title, they weren't the best team in the comp.
The second placed team were.

Sure, we wouldn't have a grand final DVD to look back on, or the celebration memories, but if first place is disqualified, second place is the winner.
 

vealesy

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Why don't they count?!
In 08 we were easily the best team in the comp & that was only our second loss for the year!!

If the team that wins a title cheated to get the title, they weren't the best team in the comp.
The second placed team were.

Sure, we wouldn't have a grand final DVD to look back on, or the celebration memories, but if first place is disqualified, second place is the winner.
Nope. Second place is second place. To win you have to win. What the NRL did was spot on.
 
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Nope. Second place is second place. To win you have to win. What the NRL did was spot on.
How would you feel then if at the start of 08 there was mention of the hawks cheating the cap and a year long investigation went on.
They win the flag.
2 months later they are found guilty and stripped of it.
I'd be PISSED.
 

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Why don't they count?!
In 08 we were easily the best team in the comp & that was only our second loss for the year!!

If the team that wins a title cheated to get the title, they weren't the best team in the comp.
The second placed team were.

Sure, we wouldn't have a grand final DVD to look back on, or the celebration memories, but if first place is disqualified, second place is the winner.
What about St Kilda who Hawthorn knocked out in the preliminary final?
 

topic97

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Nope. Second place is second place. To win you have to win. What the NRL did was spot on.
Don't get me wrong, I still wouldn't take the win as we already went through the emotions of losing on the day(and for months after).

But technically second place is the winner if first place is disqualified for cheating.
Just like every Olympic result that's over turned due to whatever circumstance.
They don't just make the race null and void.

What we need to do is make sure that a decision is made ASAP to prevent anything like this happening.

It's not really the same as the storm case as all those findings were retrospective to the premierships.
In this case, we already know its happened even prior to the season!
 

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kickazz

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Why don't they count?!


Sure, we wouldn't have a grand final DVD to look back on, or the celebration memories, but if first place is disqualified, second place is the winner.
It's what they do in the Olympics. Yet the NRL declared the Storm cheating years as having no premier.
So there is precedent for either approach. Logically I agree with the first one, but emotionally with the second.
 

Willo_

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Ok, look at it from the flip side then - what about the bombers supporters?

I have a heap of mates that are dons supporters that want all this to be over - weather they be guilty or not.
One mate said to me that he is trying as hard as he can not to get excited or optimistic about this season, even though they are flying, because he doesn't want to have his heart ripped out in case the club is stripped of their season.

Now I know there are plenty of muppets that will still claim innocence even when guilty, but do the fair dinkum supporters who have played absolutely no part in their team essentially cheating, deserve to be treated this way?

It's not fair on all accounts & if they are guilty, something needs to be done before the end of the season to save supporters & clubs on both sides!!

Unfortunately it probably won't.
It needs to be sorted before the end of the season, opposition supporters would all feel robbed if the dons win the flag then have it stripped

The best for everyone is it being over ASAP
 

topic97

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You and Nostradamus, maybe.:D
So we are calling Dank Nostradamus now are we? ;)

What about St Kilda who Hawthorn knocked out in the preliminary final?
Well in that instance then, what they need to do is re-assemble both St Kilda and Geelongs 2008 lineups, regardless of retirements, and have a replay!! :)

Nah good point though, its a very murky rabbit hole.....
 

Farmer2Goggin

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What is the speculation as to why AOD was administered at Essendon - was it to bulk up , aid recovery or was it to address the soft tissue injury epidemic?
If it's the latter it would seem to further distance us away from the current controversy. Any budding chemists out there ?
 

Willo_

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What is the speculation as to why AOD was administered at Essendon - was it to bulk up , aid recovery or was it to address the soft tissue injury epidemic?
If it's the latter it would seem to further distance us away from the current controversy. Any budding chemists out there ?
I'm pretty sure it was before the soft tissue epidemic.. But I am sure I saw reports that it could potentially help with that.

The very simple question really is
If something has not even been approved for HUMAN use yet... Why the hell would it be used at all?
 
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As was said earlier. The whole program was to aid recovery so that they could work harder.
And it got to such farcical levels that players were 'apparently' fainting in the gym during a workout.
 

FredLeDeux

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So we are calling Dank Nostradamus now are we? ;)
Not me.
But I'm not calling him or (particularly) Charter a reliable witness, nor am I relying on any "evidence" filtered 2nd-hand through Melbourne journos, upon whose word I would not generally hang a dog.:D

If something has not even been approved for HUMAN use yet... Why the hell would it be used at all?
To make your horse run faster.:D
 

vealesy

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Don't get me wrong, I still wouldn't take the win as we already went through the emotions of losing on the day(and for months after).

But technically second place is the winner if first place is disqualified for cheating.
Just like every Olympic result that's over turned due to whatever circumstance.
They don't just make the race null and void.

What we need to do is make sure that a decision is made ASAP to prevent anything like this happening.

It's not really the same as the storm case as all those findings were retrospective to the premierships.
In this case, we already know its happened even prior to the season!
But we the public dont know whats happened. People are assuming and are listening to stories from the talking heads. What facts have been officially made public yet? Geez now im understanding how Hird feels. The investigation must run its proper course ffs!

And lol @ olympics. Hardly the pinnacle of ethical sporting organisations. i would throw a retrospective medal back in their face.

Wite the AFL a letter, since you seem to know more about this than they do.

Im hardly a fan boi of AFL house, quite the opposite, but if they ban essendon from competition without due process occurring i will give this game away.

Have you ever played sport or competed in anything? No true competitor wants retrospective titles and no true human being wants due process skipped over in favour of the uninformed public majority's media fed opinion!
 
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Don't get me wrong, I still wouldn't take the win as we already went through the emotions of losing on the day(and for months after).

But technically second place is the winner if first place is disqualified for cheating.
Just like every Olympic result that's over turned due to whatever circumstance.
They don't just make the race null and void.

What we need to do is make sure that a decision is made ASAP to prevent anything like this happening.

It's not really the same as the storm case as all those findings were retrospective to the premierships.
In this case, we already know its happened even prior to the season!
Tell that to Raelene Boyle!
 

MrRockett24

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Olympic medal relevance?
Pretty sure you can see the correlation...do i really need to spell it out. Surely your not that daft?

Ok..
The competitor who actually crossed the finish line first was not awarded first place. Thus, you can be 2nd and still win the gold medal.

So, why shouldnt the same apply for an AFL Game.

Just because Team A kicks a higher score than team B in a Grand Final, this does not mean that Team A wins the game.

Under the same pretense as being stripped of a Gold Medal, such a team could be stripped of its Premiership, which would be awarded to Team B.

Didnt St.Kilda and Freo draw a game a few years ago... remind me who won the game?


Have heard about a game in VFL in the 50's i thnk it was where a player from Team A wobbled the goal post from a set shot for Team B after the siren (to win the game).
The ball went Point Side becasue of this, but the VFL overruled this and awarded the Goal after the match.

So...theres already a pretense for this in Australian Football where Team A had a higher score, but Team B were awarded the win due to team A Cheating.
 
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