No Opposition Supporters General AFL and other clubs discussion thread. **Opposition fans not welcome** Part 4

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Carl Spackler

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No idea why you are so worried about antisocial behaviour being cracked down on

Aside from that how do the Tigers cheersquad know they are undercover spotters, could just be fans sick of the Tigers cheer squad going feral

It's about time we moved on from the footy being an excuse to hurl abuse at people at the top of your lungs
Kicking people out of the game for yelling that the umpire is a 'bald headed flog'? Or a 'green maggot' for a three-game ban? That's anti-social behaviour?

I'm worried because the AFL is doing this while umpiring becomes every more complex and inconsistent. Because penalties and MRC decisions are seemingly drowning and bias. Because play is increasingly uncertain, rules increasingly arbitrary, the product of football decreasing in quality weekly before our eyes. Because country leagues are being starved of funds and support. Because a mid-season draft is conducted to the detriment of the lower leagues that keep the game afloat.

All that is going on and the AFL feels the need to police the Richmond cheer squad. It appears depressingly clear that the on-field product has become the league's secondary mission. It's readily apparent that the AFL would be most pleased if the fans sat as Melbourne supporters on the second and third levels of the MCC and golf clapped their way through a s**t contest. The AFL act with an arrogance that shows they believe they have an exclusive right and license to fanbase support, regardless of product quality.

I'm worried because the AFL has lost its way and I really like footy. I don't want to see them destroy it for a lack of focus on their single mission: be worthy custodians of the great tradition of Australian Rules Football.
 

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Carl Spackler

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I'm of the opinion that if you won't go to the footy if you can't swear your head off then I'm happy to not see you at the footy. If that is a requirement for your enjoyment of the game live then it's more about the fact that you see the footy as a place you can act in a way you can't anywhere else in public.

Go to fed square and scream like you do at the footy and the cops will pay you a visit. People have been getting ejected from the footy for a long time for being over the top and you see plenty of blokes that should be kicked out that don't.

I know you have this I grew up with xxx so why should it be changed mentality. Well lots of people have lost that argument over the years on many topics when people decided they weren't going to put up with that.

You're worried that all you will be able to do is clap like at Wimbeldon, and to protect that you want to let **** behaviour be encouraged.

Hurling abuse over the fence at an individual, screaming out aggresive swear words, saying you want them to die etc is antisocial, just because people have always done it isn't a good excuse to let them keep doing it.

Bad call by the umps, boo it, someone cleans up your player, boo him. Why do you need to do anything else?

Now if you then decide you are going to boo at the top of your lungs all game in protest, well then I hope you get kicked out because that would be antisocial and ruining it for anyone within ear shot
It's always easier to win arguments when you argue against facts which don't exist. People are getting kicked out not for swearing their heads off but for calling the umpire a "green maggot" and a "bald-headed flog."

Where your nominated arbiters of moral clarity, the leadership of AFL house, in any position to provide moral leadership rather than covering for one boys club scandal (inter-office sexual relationships, drug use, fighting, you name it) after another, then maybe you would make an argument with some substance. But you nominated moral arbiters are only not worthy of that respect, they can't even do what they are supposed to be good at - manage the game.

They have lost the plot. This is the GOT season 8 episode 3 moment for the AFL. You won't agree with them yet, being a fanboy. I can understand that. But you'll come around. The AFL is lost at sea. They'll give you plenty of more evidence which cannot be ignored.
 

Ned Ryerson

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I'm of the opinion that if you won't go to the footy if you can't swear your head off then I'm happy to not see you at the footy. If that is a requirement for your enjoyment of the game live then it's more about the fact that you see the footy as a place you can act in a way you can't anywhere else in public.

Go to fed square and scream like you do at the footy and the cops will pay you a visit. People have been getting ejected from the footy for a long time for being over the top and you see plenty of blokes that should be kicked out that don't.

I know you have this I grew up with xxx so why should it be changed mentality. Well lots of people have lost that argument over the years on many topics when people decided they weren't going to put up with that.

You're worried that all you will be able to do is clap like at Wimbeldon, and to protect that you want to let **** behaviour be encouraged.

Hurling abuse over the fence at an individual, screaming out aggresive swear words, saying you want them to die etc is antisocial, just because people have always done it isn't a good excuse to let them keep doing it.

Bad call by the umps, boo it, someone cleans up your player, boo him. Why do you need to do anything else?

Now if you then decide you are going to boo at the top of your lungs all game in protest, well then I hope you get kicked out because that would be antisocial and ruining it for anyone within ear shot
And what about the shades of grey?

Not sure where you have presumed I would support threats of death to players or officials - of course that should see you thrown out and I would hope banned from any ground in the country. Getting a bit over constant bad calls from an umpire and letting slip 'oh BS umpire!' shouldn't result in my expulsion.

We have already seen the AFL get antsy on Abblet's booing and in the aftermath of the Goodes documentary I wouldn't be at all shocked if there is a booing crackdown.

The swearing might get stamped out. Not being able to say a single offensive thing to be directed at an umpire might be stamped out. But what comes next? What next offends the sensitivities of what remains of the football going public?

I think the AFL rather than try and regulate this should implement family areas in every ground where people who don't want to hear any swearing or have any drinking can attend in peace and if someone deviates from those rules there - sure turf them out. But if I don't have any issue with swearing and banter - then I wouldn't mind the right to continue to hear that at the footy much like I have since the late 80s.
 

jenniferHAWKinS

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If I was kicked out of an AFL game for calling an umpire a green maggot or bald headed flog I would happily pay my Hawks membership and never go to another game again! I am all for stamping out overly aggressive and abusive fans but one comment ( he said, she said) and you’re out is just taking it way too far! .... the AFL!
 

cryptor

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Interesting arguments in the media regarding the Howe decision yesterday. Commentators were disgusted by the decision to take the mark of Howe and award a free to the Melbourne player, saying he was just up for the speccy and it should be allowed.

From what I could see, the Dees player was set to take the mark and Howe runs up from behind, and with his leg fully extended, plants his foot squarely in the back of the Dees player, pushing him out of the way. There was no real vertical leap, just a push in the back, plain and simple.

Good decision by the umpire IMO. A push in the back has always been illegal.
Yeah, I'm comfortable with that being a free against. Howe didn't get any vertical movement from the contact. Just simply flew in horizontally and took him out with a push squarely in the back with the foot. Not only was the contact effectively just a push in the back, the contact was with the studs/base of the boot which is far more dangerous than any push with the hands could ever be.
 

cryptor

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If I was kicked out of an AFL game for calling an umpire a green maggot or bald headed flog I would happily pay my Hawks membership and never go to another game again! I am all for stamping out overly aggressive and abusive fans but one comment ( he said, she said) and you’re out is just taking it way too far! .... the AFL!
I have family that works event staff at the MCG. Apparently when a report of antisocial behaviour comes through security will be sent to the area and they'll observe until the behaviour is repeated before taking any action. You won't (or at least shouldn't) be tossed out simply because someone has anonymously texted your seat number and made up a story. The exception would be physical altercations but I imagine that would come with some substantial evidence in the form of injuries and a decent amount of witnesses.
 

Gralin

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It's always easier to win arguments when you argue against facts which don't exist. People are getting kicked out not for swearing their heads off but for calling the umpire a "green maggot" and a "bald-headed flog."

Where your nominated arbiters of moral clarity, the leadership of AFL house, in any position to provide moral leadership rather than covering for one boys club scandal (inter-office sexual relationships, drug use, fighting, you name it) after another, then maybe you would make an argument with some substance. But you nominated moral arbiters are only not worthy of that respect, they can't even do what they are supposed to be good at - manage the game.

They have lost the plot. This is the GOT season 8 episode 3 moment for the AFL. You won't agree with them yet, being a fanboy. I can understand that. But you'll come around. The AFL is lost at sea. They'll give you plenty of more evidence which cannot be ignored.
Who said they got thrown out for green maggot or bald-headed flog? The person that got thrown? One of their friends? The AFL?

I haven't looked into the details of the specific story. But I am reminded of one that did the rounds a few years ago of an "innocent" woman removed from a Stevie Nicks concert. She did the morning talk shows before it came out what actually happened and why she was forcefully removed by security. Also that it wasn't the first time it had happened with her at a concert.
 

Carl Spackler

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Who said they got thrown out for green maggot or bald-headed flog? The person that got thrown? One of their friends? The AFL?

I haven't looked into the details of the specific story. But I am reminded of one that did the rounds a few years ago of an "innocent" woman removed from a Stevie Nicks concert. She did the morning talk shows before it came out what actually happened and why she was forcefully removed by security. Also that it wasn't the first time it had happened with her at a concert.
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/richmond-bans-cheer-squad-member-for-three-games-after-green-maggot-comment-20190531-p51tdj.html

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/bald-headed-flog-footy-supporter-evicted-for-umpire-abuse-20190608-p51vud.html
 

Gralin

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So the first one
A memo by the Richmond cheer squad said the member was ejected from the MCG during Richmond’s ANZAC Day Eve 85-42 win over Melbourne for allegedly making a homophobic remark towards the umpire.
Turns out that was wrong
It was later discovered the member said “be consistent, you green maggot”, which was deemed to be “offensive and bullying”.
A Richmond spokeswoman confirmed the three-game ban was handed down by the club and cheer squad, and said the fan was "happy to take that, and we move on".
Turns out it wasn't the AFL that did it

An AFL spokesman confirmed the league was not involved in the ban, and said it was a matter for the club and cheer squad.
And he wasn't banned from attending games, just sitting with the cheer squad for 3 weeks

And as to the other one
Shortly after the game, 3AW spoke to the evicted supporter, Frankie, who recounted his version of events.
"It's pretty embarrassing this afternoon from the AFL ... I couldn't believe it," he said.
"All I said was 'You can't call the ball one-handed, you bald-headed flog,' and then he's just pretty much stamped his hand on the side of the wall there, pointed to a security guard and sort of chucked me."
Frankie said he made an effort to censor himself before shouting, aware there were children around in the stands and denied reports on social media that he had used a homophobic slur.
We've got the bloke getting kicked out saying I didn't do nothing wrong and that's it

People get kicked out of the footy all the time, most of them probably feel hard done by.

So one guy got told you by his own club to go sit somewhere else for a few weeks and you blame the AFL

Another abused an ump, who heard it and pointed him out to security and you blame the AFL

The blues fan made it personal about the ump, he insulted him based on his looks because he wasn't happy with how he was doing his job. You happy with that? Would you like that to happen to you at work?
 

Carl Spackler

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So the first one


Turns out that was wrong


Turns out it wasn't the AFL that did it



And he wasn't banned from attending games, just sitting with the cheer squad for 3 weeks

And as to the other one


We've got the bloke getting kicked out saying I didn't do nothing wrong and that's it

People get kicked out of the footy all the time, most of them probably feel hard done by.

So one guy got told you by his own club to go sit somewhere else for a few weeks and you blame the AFL

Another abused an ump, who heard it and pointed him out to security and you blame the AFL

The blues fan made it personal about the ump, he insulted him based on his looks because he wasn't happy with how he was doing his job. You happy with that? Would you like that to happen to you at work?
I said you wouldn't agree with me, but I'm not worried. You will soon. The AFL will continue down this road and soon be completely defenseless.
 

Gralin

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I said you wouldn't agree with me, but I'm not worried. You will soon. The AFL will continue down this road and soon be completely defenseless.
Couldn't give two s**ts about defending the AFL.

You're blaming the AFL for the Richmond cheer squad punishing one of their own who stepped out of line, and for a Carlton supporter getting booted for abusing an umpire.

You still didn't answer my question about whether you'd find that kind of stuff acceptable if it happened to you at work btw.

I'm fine if you have a different view on what you should be able to do or say at the footy to me, I tend to have little sympathy for these sorts as people don't tend to get thrown out of events for no reason as much as they'd have you believe that.

It's fine for you to worry about where it will end but really I don't see the point of defending a persons right to abuse an individual in their workplace as a good point to draw the line, the AFL have to worry about the players or umpires taking them to court over unsafe work conditions the same as your employer would if they allowed drunk people to abuse you while you worked.
 

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Ned Ryerson

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Couldn't give two ****s about defending the AFL.

You're blaming the AFL for the Richmond cheer squad punishing one of their own who stepped out of line.
I think we all know what master the Richmond FC is serving with their actions - this crowd behaviour 'crackdown' has been bubbling away for months.

You still didn't answer my question about whether you'd find that kind of stuff acceptable if it happened to you at work btw.

I'm fine if you have a different view on what you should be able to do or say at the footy to me, I tend to have little sympathy for these sorts as people don't tend to get thrown out of events for no reason as much as they'd have you believe that.

It's fine for you to worry about where it will end but really I don't see the point of defending a persons right to abuse an individual in their workplace as a good point to draw the line, the AFL have to worry about the players or umpires taking them to court over unsafe work conditions the same as your employer would if they allowed drunk people to abuse you while you worked.
In terms of the guy leaning over the race and abusing the umpire - I tend to agree that he was asking for the punishment. Directly abusing the umpire like that is unnecessary intimidation and anyone who leans over the race or the fence to get aggressive with players or officials are overstepping.

However - with the way things are heading - it feels like someone like me who sits nowhere near where an umpire or player could hear me who might hurl the odd 'oh BS!' at the worst could have the finger pointed. I sit quite close to MCG staff and the occasional wandering security person and I would feel fairly aggrieved if I was to be thrown out for such a minor thing.
 

Gaston

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More exciting? Yep. Better paced and the game flowed much better? Yes. Faster? yes and no. I'll explain.

So yeah, you're absolutely correct except that in those brief windows if you observe you'll notice the ball can potentially move from one end of the ground to the other faster than ever before. Unfortunately play is stifled the rest of the time with much longer periods where nothing of importance happens.
Great post but the highlighted line is the big issue, too much nothingness in todays football.
 

Carl Spackler

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Couldn't give two ****s about defending the AFL.

You're blaming the AFL for the Richmond cheer squad punishing one of their own who stepped out of line, and for a Carlton supporter getting booted for abusing an umpire.

You still didn't answer my question about whether you'd find that kind of stuff acceptable if it happened to you at work btw.

I'm fine if you have a different view on what you should be able to do or say at the footy to me, I tend to have little sympathy for these sorts as people don't tend to get thrown out of events for no reason as much as they'd have you believe that.

It's fine for you to worry about where it will end but really I don't see the point of defending a persons right to abuse an individual in their workplace as a good point to draw the line, the AFL have to worry about the players or umpires taking them to court over unsafe work conditions the same as your employer would if they allowed drunk people to abuse you while you worked.
That sort of stuff (green maggot, etc) has been acceptable for a hundred years and yes I think it's perfectly find to call an umpire a bald-headed flog. It's not work-place bullying. To claim otherwise is a degree of hyper-sensitivity that makes any sort of social interaction impossible in anything but the most saccharine conditions. And it is utterly contrary to the spirit of footy support.

So argue otherwise (and mean what you're saying) requires that this place be cleaned up to an amazing degree. I do not stand to be bullied and will take offense at any put down (etc, etc, etc, if I were going to make a point). Oh, this isn't a workplace? So you're fine with bullying in general, just not specifically at work. Well, someone here is working so they are protected, just not us non-working flogs.

See? This is where this leads. Were the AFL to work on managing the game more (and increasing the quality and consistency there) and our social conscious less then I think a whole lot of this mess would quickly pass for the BS fad it is.
 

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Gralin

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I think we all know what master the Richmond FC is serving with their actions - this crowd behaviour 'crackdown' has been bubbling away for months.
I think the Goode's documentary and the spate of attacks earlier in the year are the catalysts. You often see crackdowns go past the line they want to draw, get some complaints and ease back to where they wanted to be all along.

It's a good technique used in all sorts of situations where the aggreived party thinks they have won a compromise

It is interesting that both the cases in the paper have some saying their were homophobic slurs at play, it wouldn't surprise me if this was the case and that is where the cover up is.

In terms of the guy leaning over the race and abusing the umpire - I tend to agree that he was asking for the punishment. Directly abusing the umpire like that is unnecessary intimidation and anyone who leans over the race or the fence to get aggressive with players or officials are overstepping.

However - with the way things are heading - it feels like someone like me who sits nowhere near where an umpire or player could hear me who might hurl the odd 'oh BS!' at the worst could have the finger pointed. I sit quite close to MCG staff and the occasional wandering security person and I would feel fairly aggrieved if I was to be thrown out for such a minor thing.
Any system is going to have issues and the possibility of abuse of the system. Another article today says some Melbourne supporters reported anti social behaviour around a loud Pies supporter who was barracking for his team without swearing.

Now I don't know about you but those blokes that just never shut up and go loud all game are some of the most annoying out there, your team or the other team, doesn't matter just good old noise pollution.

Bit rough to have the cops tell you to quiet down and most people would probably tell him that, but half of them also might be thinking about bloody time because they don't know how to tell someone they are being annoying. Be interesting to see what happens with that one.

That sort of stuff (green maggot, etc) has been acceptable for a hundred years and yes I think it's perfectly find to call an umpire a bald-headed flog. It's not work-place bullying. To claim otherwise is a degree of hyper-sensitivity that makes any sort of social interaction impossible in anything but the most saccharine conditions. And it is utterly contrary to the spirit of footy support.

So argue otherwise (and mean what you're saying) requires that this place be cleaned up to an amazing degree. I do not stand to be bullied and will take offense at any put down (etc, etc, etc, if I were going to make a point). Oh, this isn't a workplace? So you're fine with bullying in general, just not specifically at work. Well, someone here is working so they are protected, just not us non-working flogs.

See? This is where this leads. Were the AFL to work on managing the game more (and increasing the quality and consistency there) and our social conscious less then I think a whole lot of this mess would quickly pass for the BS fad it is.
I'm not sure why you think abusing someone while they are at work isn't work place bullying just because you've always been able to do it. Or that to claim not wanting to be abused at work is the victim being hyper sensitive.

For me the spirit of footy support is cheering your team on, not booing the umpire or the opponent, sure booing a bad call, yelling ball or 50, cheering goal are all normal and part of footy. But why should calling someone an bald flog be in the spirit of being a supporter? What's supportive about it? Nothing

The AFL have to worry about creating a safe workplace for their employees the same as any other business. That means safe from coworkers as well as customers. You go to the footy you are a customer, they can ask you to leave if you are making it an unsafe work place for their employees the same as any other business. They can also ask you to leave if you are making it unsafe for any other customer.

Sports aren't going to get a free pass on fan behaviour anymore just because sports. This isn't just an AFL issue.
 

Bumps"N"Grins

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Couldn't give two ****s about defending the AFL.

You're blaming the AFL for the Richmond cheer squad punishing one of their own who stepped out of line, and for a Carlton supporter getting booted for abusing an umpire.

You still didn't answer my question about whether you'd find that kind of stuff acceptable if it happened to you at work btw.

I'm fine if you have a different view on what you should be able to do or say at the footy to me, I tend to have little sympathy for these sorts as people don't tend to get thrown out of events for no reason as much as they'd have you believe that.

It's fine for you to worry about where it will end but really I don't see the point of defending a persons right to abuse an individual in their workplace as a good point to draw the line, the AFL have to worry about the players or umpires taking them to court over unsafe work conditions the same as your employer would if they allowed drunk people to abuse you while you worked.
To the umpire and some players it's a work place for me it is a sport.

Shocking argument to make about what is for most not a workplace but a sport and something that most would still participate in should they not even get paid. I'm not sure you have been watching footy for long but but fans letting off steam has been common since Jesus played fullback for Bethlehem, drunks lining up to spew forth bile at the checkout chick at Coles not so much.

Starting to notice tolerance only runs one direction more and more these days.
 

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Treating people in a manor that removes the risk of them declaring that their employer failed their duty of care is not really a fad.

Whether we choose to agree with it or not, the AFL much like every other big corporate company in the world right now is undergoing a revolution in regards to culture and values.

If they turn a blind eye to one of their employees saying “I’m being abused in the workplace and it’s effecting my ability to perform my job” in this day and age then they’re opening themselves up to all sorts of issues.

I get all the outrage about the guy getting kicked out, but really take a look around at what is happening in all industries about how you treat each other and it shouldn’t really be all that shocking.
 

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This game is shot if that wasn’t a mark from Jeremy Howe
Totally disagree with you on this OTC. In this case Howe went in horizontally and planted his boot square in the back of the opponent thus removing him from the contest. IF he had got a bit closer then rose vertically (at least a vertical incline) then we may have had a marking contest. This was no different than a shove with both hands that resulted in no marking contest at all. Free kick every day of the week.

The speccy is always a little suspect when it comes to infringement and we tend to applaud the mark, and pay it, when it is held, but how often is a free kick awarded if the mark is not held? Quite often.

It is not OK to place a hand on the back, even if you are just keeping the guy from backing into you. It is not OK to push forward with a forearm.
But you are suggesting it is OK to fly studs first into someone's back, possibly causing serious injury, simply because he held the mark that was a no-contest.
 

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Getting kicked out for calling Nichols a bald-headed flog is pretty harsh. Particularly given he is, in fact, a bald-headed flog!

On a serious note, I can understand that he probably doesn't want to be abused at work, but it's far from being the worst insult around. If he can't handle that, then maybe being an AFL umpire isn't the right job for him.
 

Sixpence

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Totally disagree with you on this OTC. In this case Howe went in horizontally and planted his boot square in the back of the opponent thus removing him from the contest. IF he had got a bit closer then rose vertically (at least a vertical incline) then we may have had a marking contest. This was no different than a shove with both hands that resulted in no marking contest at all. Free kick every day of the week.

The speccy is always a little suspect when it comes to infringement and we tend to applaud the mark, and pay it, when it is held, but how often is a free kick awarded if the mark is not held? Quite often.

It is not OK to place a hand on the back, even if you are just keeping the guy from backing into you. It is not OK to push forward with a forearm.
But you are suggesting it is OK to fly studs first into someone's back, possibly causing serious injury, simply because he held the mark that was a no-contest.
Yep, the difference between a Screamer and an Unrealistic Attempt can be matter of inches.

I think those who didn't like the call can blame Toby Greene and his penchant for fly-kicking people in the head. As the rule stands, you can't push off a player studs first. 100% free kick. You can argue the rule wasn't brought in to stop the Howe incidents, but the rule is pretty black and white and you can't expect the umpire to just pick and choose when they pay it (even if they do with every other bloody rule!).
 

Gralin

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To the umpire and some players it's a work place for me it is a sport.

Shocking argument to make about what is for most not a workplace but a sport and something that most would still participate in should they not even get paid. I'm not sure you have been watching footy for long but but fans letting off steam has been common since Jesus played fullback for Bethlehem, drunks lining up to spew forth bile at the checkout chick at Coles not so much.

Starting to notice tolerance only runs one direction more and more these days.
It's not a shocking argument though, it's an argument based on the reality of what is going on. You really think that your argument would hold up in court? It's just sport your honor, most of them would play it anyway so if I want to abuse them I can and will and to kick me out is UN-Australian!

The we've always done it argument isn't worth much either, same as I had to put up with it when I was a kid so they should to, etc, based on that work places should still be allowing employees to be bullied until they quit or kill themselves, because you know that's been going on for ever, same for sexual harassment, discriminating against employing someone based on race, age, gender, religion, hair color, whatever floats your boat hey. But we've always done it!

Yeah they are playing footy/umpiring footy, yeah they make more than most of us doing it, yeah most of them have probably copped abuse since they were kids while doing it, none of that is a good reason for them to have to continue to cop abuse.

As for your comment on tolerance, I do love that one when it gets trotted out in a discussion like this. The person being abused should just tolerate that abuse because I don't want to have to change my behaviour or be told I can't do something, damn the intolerance of those people telling me I can't abuse someone whenever I feel like it!
 

Bumps"N"Grins

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Oct 15, 2014
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It's not a shocking argument though, it's an argument based on the reality of what is going on. You really think that your argument would hold up in court? It's just sport your honor, most of them would play it anyway so if I want to abuse them I can and will and to kick me out is UN-Australian!

The we've always done it argument isn't worth much either, same as I had to put up with it when I was a kid so they should to, etc, based on that work places should still be allowing employees to be bullied until they quit or kill themselves, because you know that's been going on for ever, same for sexual harassment, discriminating against employing someone based on race, age, gender, religion, hair color, whatever floats your boat hey. But we've always done it!

Yeah they are playing footy/umpiring footy, yeah they make more than most of us doing it, yeah most of them have probably copped abuse since they were kids while doing it, none of that is a good reason for them to have to continue to cop abuse.

As for your comment on tolerance, I do love that one when it gets trotted out in a discussion like this. The person being abused should just tolerate that abuse because I don't want to have to change my behaviour or be told I can't do something, damn the intolerance of those people telling me I can't abuse someone whenever I feel like it!
Look forward to watching Footy on Fox Business channels.

Drops mic.
 
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