Oppo Camp General AFL and other clubs discussion thread. **Opposition fans not welcome** Part 5

[Mississippi]

Stan Alves took St Kilda into a Grand Final in 97. Twelve months later, he was sacked after a straight sets finals exit. To be replaced by...Tim Watson!!!

I don't think they've ever really recovered, even in spite of their appearances in the 09 and 10 GFs.

(I'd like to think Clarko learned what not to do when he was an assistant to Twatson at the Saints. )

Of all the appalling and inexplicable coaching decisions made by St Kilda, you’d have to say that appointing twat, sorry T Watson, as coach was undoubtedly the worst.
What were they thinking?
He retired as a player in 1994 then did bugger all for 4 years. He was just media wasn’t he? No coaching experience in those years?

And then for some reason, St Kilda decide he’d make a terrific senior coach?
A player 4 years out of the system with no coaching experience is ordained by a bunch of misfits to be St Kilda’s new messiah!
Unbelievable.

A question for the St Kilda brains trust. You sacked Richardson because he’s failed to get his injury depleted side into the final 8 this year. That’s an on-record statement.

So ...... what are you going to say to the new coach next year? Forget about the ultimatum in 2019 - it was just our wishful thinking, let’s just revert to yet another 5 year plan?
Or are you going to say, “what was good enough for Richo is good for you also. Finals in 2020 or you’re out after one year”.

Thank god I wasn’t indoctrinated at birth into barracking for St Kilda.

 

[Hong Kong Hawk]

Stan Alves took St Kilda into a Grand Final in 97. Twelve months later, he was sacked after a straight sets finals exit. To be replaced by...Tim Watson!!!

I don't think they've ever really recovered, even in spite of their appearances in the 09 and 10 GFs.

(I'd like to think Clarko learned what not to do when he was an assistant to Twatson at the Saints. )

What Clarko did learn (or perhaps already knew) was that appointing a new coach is just one piece of a very large puzzle when it comes to taking teams/clubs to the highest level of success. His appointment was coupled with a huge cultural shift at Hawthorn through all of our departments.

StKilda, Melbourne, Gold Coast and a host of other clubs are kidding themselves. They appoint a new coach and tell the world "this is a move designed to win us a premiership in the next 5 years". They forget/neglect that culture is a phenomenon that goes all the way from the CEO to the Property Steward. Quite frankly if Clarko went to one of these clubs and that was the only move that was made, he'd most likely improve the performance of the team but without a complete shakeout of culture he'd be sacked like the rest of them eventually. That's no disrespect to Clarko's brilliance as a coach - it is however realistic in relation to how these clubs function.

 

[JoeHawk]

I read Suns are interested in signing Burgoyne on a 4 year deal (2 to play and 2 to coach) which will bring him to 400. I really hope he stays at Hawthorn on a similar basis. I’m tired of seeing our champs and intel going elsewhere and would like for once that such a player stays on. Although there is Roughead as it seems his playing days at the top level is nearly done.

 

[Mississippi]

I read Suns are interested in signing Burgoyne on a 4 year deal (2 to play and 2 to coach) which will bring him to 400. I really hope he stays at Hawthorn on a similar basis. I’m tired of seeing our champs and intel going elsewhere and would like for once that such a player stays on. Although there is Roughead as it seems his playing days at the top level is nearly done.

I'd love to see Burgoyne go and be successful in exactly the same way Hodgey (and Fagan) have in Brisbane. Ultimately it's good for the competition.
Personally I'm enjoying the current ride Brisbane is having and absolutely love seeing the wonderful influence Hodgey is having in the Brisbane back line - and probably throughout the entire playing group.

Aside from all of that, we simply must have a succession plan and cannot afford to keep our older players if we want to develop our new generation. Clarkson is absolutely aware of that, and that it why he's consciously and clinically edged out a series of our premiership players over the past decade.

 

[Rioli2Gunstall]

I'd love to see Burgoyne go and be successful in exactly the same way Hodgey (and Fagan) have in Brisbane. Ultimately it's good for the competition.
Personally I'm enjoying the current ride Brisbane is having and absolutely love seeing the wonderful influence Hodgey is having in the Brisbane back line - and probably throughout the entire playing group.

Aside from all of that, we simply must have a succession plan and cannot afford to keep our older players if we want to develop our new generation. Clarkson is absolutely aware of that, and that it why he's consciously and clinically edged out a series of our premiership players over the past decade.

* the competition they have been stealing our coaches players and intellect for too long while we got nothing in return (for coaches). Hope Burgoyne stays with us and reaches 400 he deserves it. Dont think the family would be keen on heading north.

 

[arupist]

fu** the competition they have been stealing our coaches players and intellect for too long while we got nothing in return (for coaches). Hope Burgoyne stays with us and reaches 400 he deserves it. Dont think the family would be keen on heading north.

You don't think it is a measure of the respect the other clubs have for Hawthorn and Clarko? Mitchell and Hodge departed on these types of play/coach deals. Rough has been mentioned in relation to Saints. Now Silk. FFS, you don't see anyone chasing Brendon Goddard or even Judd to help coach their youth.

 

[Briar Gold]

On coaches, it's weird how much pressure the media piled on Bolton and Richo but not Goodwin. Melbourne's drop off has been appalling but not a peep.

 

[Hong Kong Hawk]

You don't think it is a measure of the respect the other clubs have for Hawthorn and Clarko? Mitchell and Hodge departed on these types of play/coach deals. Rough has been mentioned in relation to Saints. Now Silk. FFS, you don't see anyone chasing Brendon Goddard or even Judd to help coach their youth.

Hey, hey, hey wait a minute - the Suns went with Karmichael Hunt as a leader in the land of schoolies. What could possibly have gone wrong?

 

[Sixpence]

You don't think it is a measure of the respect the other clubs have for Hawthorn and Clarko? Mitchell and Hodge departed on these types of play/coach deals. Rough has been mentioned in relation to Saints. Now Silk. FFS, you don't see anyone chasing Brendon Goddard or even Judd to help coach their youth.

As inept as Gold Coast are, you have to give them credit for realising that pointing your finger at kids doesn't help them improve.

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

fu** the competition they have been stealing our coaches players and intellect for too long while we got nothing in return (for coaches). Hope Burgoyne stays with us and reaches 400 he deserves it. Dont think the family would be keen on heading north.

Agreed. Rough said no to them and hope Burgers does too.

Would be a shame Burgers to miss out on our 2020 flag assault too, when we have Mitch back and Cogs joining him in the midfield...

 

[HODGEYROAD]

I'd love to see Burgoyne go and be successful in exactly the same way Hodgey (and Fagan) have in Brisbane. Ultimately it's good for the competition.
Personally I'm enjoying the current ride Brisbane is having and absolutely love seeing the wonderful influence Hodgey is having in the Brisbane back line - and probably throughout the entire playing group.

Aside from all of that, we simply must have a succession plan and cannot afford to keep our older players if we want to develop our new generation. Clarkson is absolutely aware of that, and that it why he's consciously and clinically edged out a series of our premiership players over the past decade.

Personally I don't care what's good for the competition, I only care what's good for Hawthorn so I'm not interested in doing favours for other clubs like giving up Burgoyne for peanuts if he wants to play on.

 

[Mississippi]

Personally I don't care what's good for the competition, I only care what's good for Hawthorn so I'm not interested in doing favours for other clubs like giving up Burgoyne for peanuts if he wants to play on.

OK, f*ck the competition if you like, but what about what's good for Burgoyne, or Roughead for that matter?

Would Burgoyne, given the choice, want to end up potentially playing half a season in 2020 for Box Hill like Roughie is at present, or would he prefer to play for Gold Coast with a mentoring role thrown in also, on good money (remember he has a family to support as well) - to be followed by a coaching role for another couple of years?

 

[Bugs1977]

Agreed. Rough said no to them and hope Burgers does too.

Would be a shame Burgers to miss out on our 2020 flag assault too, when we have Mitch back and Cogs joining him in the midfield...

Burgoyne is just one of those guys you say * the birth certificate because he's just so bloody good and versatile. He can play on any line and is most definitely not a passenger out there on the field. However, if the Suns came to us and said hey if you can get Smith to agree to come to us via trade and we can get a compo pick (pick 2) then we'll do a side deal with you for Burgoyne / Smith / pick 8 for the compo (pick 2) which we then get to select Anderson. If Burgoyne and Smith both agree to go on big money deals then seriously who would say know to that? We've seen what happens to clubs by holding onto ageing veterans (i.e. Brisbane Lions) so it could really be a win / win for both clubs. Heck they could even then sign on Roughie to a 1 year deal to go too giving them Burgoyne, Smith and Roughead to lead all their young guys.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

OK, f*ck the competition if you like, but what about what's good for Burgoyne, or Roughead for that matter?

Would Burgoyne, given the choice, want to end up potentially playing half a season in 2020 for Box Hill like Roughie is at present, or would he prefer to play for Gold Coast with a mentoring role thrown in also, on good money (remember he has a family to support as well) - to be followed by a coaching role for another couple of years?

I can understand Burgoyne wanting to leave for financial incentive and all that which he deserves, but if Gold Coast are willing to pay him that much they can also offer us a 3rd round pick or something of that ilk also, hopefully we get Burgoyne to sign a 1 year deal so it's a trade with the Suns should it happen.

 

[Mississippi]

Burgoyne is just one of those guys you say fu** the birth certificate because he's just so bloody good and versatile. He can play on any line and is most definitely not a passenger out there on the field. However, if the Suns came to us and said hey if you can get Smith to agree to come to us via trade and we can get a compo pick (pick 2) then we'll do a side deal with you for Burgoyne / Smith / pick 8 for the compo (pick 2) which we then get to select Anderson. If Burgoyne and Smith both agree to go on big money deals then seriously who would say know to that? We've seen what happens to clubs by holding onto ageing veterans (i.e. Brisbane Lions) so it could really be a win / win for both clubs. Heck they could even then sign on Roughie to a 1 year deal to go too giving them Burgoyne, Smith and Roughead to lead all their young guys.

Tell em you're dreaming.

The more likely scenario is Burgers gets an offer from Gold Coast for around $1.6 for 4 years (2 playing / 2 non-playing).
Assume Hawthorn offers him the usual 1 year contract, around $400K? (disregarding the more likely outcome that he's encouraged to retire as was Hodge and other veterans in accordance with Clarkson's succession plan).

The toughies on this board insist that we're not going to give him to GC for peanuts, no way!

So what bargaining power do we have for an uncontracted player - even assuming we're prepared to re-sign him for another year?

We have virtually none - and neither should we.

 

[Bugs1977]

Tell em you're dreaming.

The more likely scenario is Burgers gets an offer from Gold Coast for around $1.6 for 4 years (2 playing / 2 non-playing).
Assume Hawthorn offers him the usual 1 year contract, around $400K? (disregarding the more likely outcome that he's encouraged to retire as was Hodge and other veterans in accordance with Clarkson's succession plan).

The toughies on this board insist that we're not going to give him to GC for peanuts, no way!

So what bargaining power do we have for an uncontracted player - even assuming we're prepared to re-sign him for another year?

We have virtually none - and neither should we.

One would think that as you said above if GC offer $1.6 for 4 years (40 cents per season) that he'll politely say no and take the 1 year 400k that we are offering. Okay yeah I'm only joking however it has already been reported here that he already has a deal on the table with us for next year if he so chooses to play on and this was way well before any of these Suns offers came to light. Your right that we don't hold any bargaining power with the Suns but if it was his intent to take up that proposed deal that we offered (not forgetting we're a handshake deal club) then that's where the whole goodwill thing comes into the equation. The currency in the pick swap from our part would come from Smith as he is still contracted and has many more years in him you'd think than Burgoyne. Just remember that they need experience and good leaders and I'm sure the 3 guys I mentioned previously Burgoyne / Smith / Roughie would offer that for a number of years with the hope to instil a change in culture that club sorely lacks.

 

[Bugs1977]

I can understand Burgoyne wanting to leave for financial incentive and all that which he deserves, but if Gold Coast are willing to pay him that much they can also offer us a 3rd round pick or something of that ilk also, hopefully we get Burgoyne to sign a 1 year deal so it's a trade with the Suns should it happen.

Would it really need to get to the point where he'd have to sign a deal with us so we can force a trade? Surely something else can be worked out and done in a side deal. This is why I think the AFL needs to make an amendment in the trading rules so you can trade multiple players and draft picks in deals. The AFL wants more player movement so why not allow multiple players to be moved in deals so they can be used as what you call steak knives in these deals. IMO if clubs are going to do side deals anyways they might as well amend the rules that allow it.

 

[Off The Couch]

Silk needs to do what’s right for Silk
At best he’ll get one more year with the hawks and he needs to look long term.
The only thing that may hold him back is 4 kids and schooling, moreso if he was also looking to return to SA in the near future.

Too many moves may be just a little too disruptive to his family

 

[Flag08]

Our leadership stocks are already thin. We need Silk to stay.

 

[Manila_Hawk]

I get the on-field leadership thing... but does Silk really want to do coaching ?

My view is that he will get one more year at Hawthorn....
... and then slot into a Melbourne-based AFL indigenous mentor/legend role.

 

[cryptor]

I hope we keep Burgoyne as long as possible. 400 games aside, his best is still worth the cost of a 1 year deal.

 

[MrPremiership]

I know we like to look after our players and agree to let them go later in their careers, but that can't be good if we keep doing it forever.

 

[cryptor]

I know we like to look after our players and agree to let them go later in their careers, but that can't be good if we keep doing it forever.

I'm ok with it as long as it's not just being done for the sake of the fact they're near the end. It should be done like it has been so far with Lewis, Mitchell and Hodge. Where they are most definitely past their best and there is a promising, young player ready to take their role in the side.

And I should clarify that the young player isn't just being gifted the games because they're young. It should be on merit with the consideration that while they may not necessarily be better than the older player in that moment, that they are expected to close the distance and go to the next level with that greater senior level experience.

If that player development goal can coincide with giving an otherwise soon (1-2 years) to be outgoing champion of our club the opportunity to extend their playing career by a couple more seasons, earn some bigger dollars, and set themselves up with a coaching gig, then I think it's a great thing. And it can only add to the clubs reputation for player welfare.

Who wouldn't want to work for an employer who is willing to go out of their way to help set you up with a cushy, well-paying mentor role at another company when you reach the twilight of your career but aren't yet wanting to completely retire? It's about the only golden handshake currently being offered that involves continuing to play AFL level footy.

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

OK, f*ck the competition if you like, but what about what's good for Burgoyne, or Roughead for that matter?

Would Burgoyne, given the choice, want to end up potentially playing half a season in 2020 for Box Hill like Roughie is at present, or would he prefer to play for Gold Coast with a mentoring role thrown in also, on good money (remember he has a family to support as well) - to be followed by a coaching role for another couple of years?

Rough was presented with this exact situation at the end of last year and he decided he'd rather play at BHH and be a one team player at Hawthorn, than go to the Suns. Maybe Burgers will too...

 

[Flamin Joe]

The Burgoyne talk is just that, talk. The Suns, like many other struggling teams, discuss hypotheticals in bringing in experience just like the Lions did with Hodge. Burgoynes, like many other names, gets mentioned and the media get a whiff of it and next minute "Burgoyne could go to the Suns" and everyone gwt their knickers in a twist.

Honestly this is no different then grabbing tidbits from the hypothetical thread and running stories with it.