Oppo Camp General AFL and other clubs discussion thread. **Opposition fans not welcome** Part 6

Remove this Banner Ad

Ned Ryerson

Future Captain
Sep 23, 2012
15,880
50,688
Punxsutawney, PA
AFL Club
Hawthorn
A team could prosper there. Av attendance at Hawthorn games is just under 14K. North games 10.5K and that is for what can mostly be described as games that would pull low crowds even in Melbourne. Gold Coast and GWS draw crowds of 11.5-12K with a games against all of the opposition teams and require a lot of AFL money to stay afloat. At least the Tassie Govt would be providing money to make sure they were successful because of the tourism factor and with a better variety of teams playing there maybe crowd numbers would increase. They are a footy state give them a team.
Crowds =/= profits. Sponsors, TV rights, outside ventures - that makes clubs profitable. Clubs like the Suns and GWS require substantial AFL assistance to remain viable - a Tasmanian side would be no different even if their crowds were higher.
 

Pessimistic

Make me an Admin!
Sep 13, 2000
78,821
35,921
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
A team could prosper there. Av attendance at Hawthorn games is just under 14K. North games 10.5K and that is for what can mostly be described as games that would pull low crowds even in Melbourne. Gold Coast and GWS draw crowds of 11.5-12K with games against all of the opposition teams and require a lot of AFL money to stay afloat. At least the Tassie Govt would be providing money to make sure they were successful because of the tourism factor and with a better variety of teams playing there crowd numbers would probably increase. Apparently they make about $30M from the Hawthorn and North Games. If they had a team of their own surely that figure would rise. They are a footy state give them a team.

Average gws and Gold Coast crowds at marvel and mcg are substantially higher, if reported crowds are true.
 

Dewnior

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 22, 2007
6,023
10,225
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Crowds =/= profits. Sponsors, TV rights, outside ventures - that makes clubs profitable. Clubs like the Suns and GWS require substantial AFL assistance to remain viable - a Tasmanian side would be no different even if their crowds were higher.
Pretty sure two thirds of all AFL clubs require substantial AFL assistance to remain viable.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Ned Ryerson

Future Captain
Sep 23, 2012
15,880
50,688
Punxsutawney, PA
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Pretty sure two thirds of all AFL clubs require substantial AFL assistance to remain viable.
Not disagreeing with that - however GWS and Gold Coast are consistently high up on that list. My argument being that Tassie wouldn’t be a viable club just because it’s a ‘Aussie rules state’. Would still require a heavy investment from the league and wealthy clubs.
 

Brishawk

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 17, 2008
20,742
34,670
Brisvegas
AFL Club
Hawthorn
A team could prosper there. Av attendance at Hawthorn games is just under 14K. North games 10.5K and that is for what can mostly be described as games that would pull low crowds even in Melbourne. Gold Coast and GWS draw crowds of 11.5-12K with games against all of the opposition teams and require a lot of AFL money to stay afloat. At least the Tassie Govt would be providing money to make sure they were successful because of the tourism factor and with a better variety of teams playing there crowd numbers would probably increase. Apparently they make about $30M from the Hawthorn and North Games. If they had a team of their own surely that figure would rise. They are a footy state give them a team.
The return on the tas governments investment in hawthorn is due to increased tourism through football. Hawthorn gives tassie national exposure plus direct football related travellers. The question is, would a tassie team provide that same benefit to the state? Would sponsors get on board? Would locals actually support a tassie team or would they stay with their existing AFL clubs?
 

Mitchell Madness

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 17, 2006
20,639
8,878
???
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Miami Dolphins(NFL)
The return on the tas governments investment in hawthorn is due to increased tourism through football. Hawthorn gives tassie national exposure plus direct football related travellers. The question is, would a tassie team provide that same benefit to the state? Would sponsors get on board? Would locals actually support a tassie team or would they stay with their existing AFL clubs?
Hawthorn brings in about 5k people per game.
You'd assume 11 games would bring in at least that.

Membership would be fine. Footy fans would still support their "first" club, but would jump on the second.

Sponsorship would be fine. How many clubs have a domestic sponsor? Most are international with Australian offices at best.
 

Brishawk

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 17, 2008
20,742
34,670
Brisvegas
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Hawthorn brings in about 5k people per game.
You'd assume 11 games would bring in at least that.

Membership would be fine. Footy fans would still support their "first" club, but would jump on the second.

Sponsorship would be fine. How many clubs have a domestic sponsor? Most are international with Australian offices at best.
I doubt very much sponsorship will be fine. It has been a big question mark over a Tasmanian team that has been pitched thus far. It will not have national appeal. Just as Gold Coast don’t. Unless they are winning they will struggle. So a Tasmanian team then becomes another team which the AFL will have to treat differently in order to ensure it is successful enough to attract sponsorship.
 

Ned Ryerson

Future Captain
Sep 23, 2012
15,880
50,688
Punxsutawney, PA
AFL Club
Hawthorn
I doubt very much sponsorship will be fine. It has been a big question mark over a Tasmanian team that has been pitched thus far. It will not have national appeal. Just as Gold Coast don’t. Unless they are winning they will struggle. So a Tasmanian team then becomes another team which the AFL will have to treat differently in order to ensure it is successful enough to attract sponsorship.
Absolutely true. A Tassie team would be very similar to Canberra in the NRL. Small population in a home market but unable to sign marquee players or big name sponsors. Where the Raiders have had to get smart and recruit players from NZ, England and Queensland over the years to stop the drain of young players wanting to live in Sydney - a Tasmanian side wouldn’t have the luxury of recruiting so creatively. They might get the odd country player who doesn’t mind living down there - but anyone wanting a city life wild find Hobart too tiny in no time.

In terms of sponsorship - the Raiders only manage to get left field sponsors such as the CFMEU and Huawei. The fact that we were dismal off-field for a long stretch of time prevented free to air game coverage which makes a big name sponsor even harder.

Where the Raiders differ is that the club is heavily asset rich so the finances aren’t as much of an issue. A Tasmanian side that struggles with player retention and on-field results will not be a huge lure to sponsors and will be reliant on AFL distributions for a long time. Unlike other home states for Aussie Rules like SA and WA, the Tasmanian local footy competitions aren’t at all strong either and the local talent isn’t there in large numbers.

I still think Tasmania should have got a team over the Gold Coast - but despite this, a Tasmanian side would be a financial drain on the competition.
 

Messenger

No, I’m just disappointed
Jun 16, 2007
31,330
27,111
Nearby
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Minnesota Timberwolves
Hawthorn brings in about 5k people per game.
You'd assume 11 games would bring in at least that.

Membership would be fine. Footy fans would still support their "first" club, but would jump on the second.

Sponsorship would be fine. How many clubs have a domestic sponsor? Most are international with Australian offices at best.
I doubt very much sponsorship will be fine. It has been a big question mark over a Tasmanian team that has been pitched thus far. It will not have national appeal. Just as Gold Coast don’t. Unless they are winning they will struggle. So a Tasmanian team then becomes another team which the AFL will have to treat differently in order to ensure it is successful enough to attract sponsorship.
Well it’s one component of the equation but in theory a Tasmanian club could bring in more interstate travellers with seven home games against Victorian clubs.

Yes, sponsorship would be a challenge.

But back to my original point. Governments need to chose their spending priorities carefully.
 

CliffMcTainshaw

Club Legend
Apr 11, 2015
1,675
1,456
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Tassie's report says that it will take $45M to establish a club in Tassie, split between State and Federal Govt's and the AFL. The State Govt would put in $11M a year. They estimate that it will bring in $110M a year in tourism, create around 360 jobs and add $19M towards AFL TV rights. You would think that there would be a lot of businesses willing to be a sponsor in some way. They also claim that in Tassie there are approximately 90,000 members linked to current AFL teams. If the tourism figure is accurate, it makes it a good investment of their $11M.
 

Pessimistic

Make me an Admin!
Sep 13, 2000
78,821
35,921
Melbourne cricket ground. Australia
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Horks
Tassie's report says that it will take $45M to establish a club in Tassie, split between State and Federal Govt's and the AFL. The State Govt would put in $11M a year. They estimate that it will bring in $110M a year in tourism, create around 360 jobs and add $19M towards AFL TV rights. You would think that there would be a lot of businesses willing to be a sponsor in some way. They also claim that in Tassie there are approximately 90,000 members linked to current AFL teams. If the tourism figure is accurate, it makes it a good investment of their $11M.

How would a single tassie team with 11 games and 11 teams visiting annualy? - compared to 8 teams visiting once an two teams visiting 4 times.

I imagine even the most hardened north or hawthorn fan wouldnt visitmore ttan once per year.

In both cases the 'away team would be non victorian.

So now we have fans from 2+4 victorian teams visiting, and fans from 4 non victorian teams visiting, including swans and lions.

If a tassie team plays 11 games, lets say 6 are non victorian. Its then 5 sets of victorian fans visiting, and 6 sets of non victorian fans visiting. presumably two of collingwood richmond carlton hawthorn would be visiting each year, which doesnt happen now (apart from hawthorn obviously)

Of course the home side would be tasmanian. Its the tourism effect in discussion though.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Ned Ryerson

Future Captain
Sep 23, 2012
15,880
50,688
Punxsutawney, PA
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Tassie's report says that it will take $45M to establish a club in Tassie, split between State and Federal Govt's and the AFL. The State Govt would put in $11M a year. They estimate that it will bring in $110M a year in tourism, create around 360 jobs and add $19M towards AFL TV rights. You would think that there would be a lot of businesses willing to be a sponsor in some way. They also claim that in Tassie there are approximately 90,000 members linked to current AFL teams. If the tourism figure is accurate, it makes it a good investment of their $11M.
Wow a state government report finds exactly what the state government wants. I’m shocked to be sitting here.
 

cryptor

Premium Gold
May 11, 2008
18,781
40,663
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Fair enough, although Tassie would probably ask what contributions other State Govt's make to footy clubs, particularly GWS and Gold Coast.
My point is they're the ones demanding a team now ("now" in the relative sense of the short term of 5 years) when the league and the country is still trying to deal with the huge financial impact of COVID-19. For them to lock the rest of the country and the league out last year and then turn around now and demand to be included is pretty damn selfish I reckon.

Fair enough that the call to do that was with the health and safety of Tasmanians in mind. That comes first. But they should have some class and not come out now making demands about how they should be included and supported in the footy league when that league is still getting back up on its feet.

Particularly when the proposal is based on them making a minority investment and reaping a 900% return. If they genuinely think it's going to be that good then they should contribute far more to getting it off the ground. Bare more of the risk. Leverage that as a way to retain more control over their club or gain better draft concessions for putting their initial list together.

And just for the record - I fully support Tasmania having its own team and if that is as soon as next year that's fine as well. I just don't support the way in which they're going for it.
 

arupist

Premium Platinum
Oct 2, 2005
6,322
9,223
Sydney
AFL Club
Hawthorn
And just for the record - I fully support Tasmania having its own team and if that is as soon as next year that's fine as well. I just don't support the way in which they're going for it.
If Tassie does have a team, but how do you think they should go about it? Start from scratch a la GWS and GC, or re-locate a Vic side? If it is the latter, Hawks are squarely in the frame. Norf is logical choice as they struggle to survive in Melbourne anyway. Heaven forbid, we go through another GC exercise.
I suspect if Hawthorn relocates, membership would immediately drop to about 10K, if that.
 

cryptor

Premium Gold
May 11, 2008
18,781
40,663
AFL Club
Hawthorn
If Tassie does have a team, but how do you think they should go about it? Start from scratch a la GWS and GC, or re-locate a Vic side? If it is the latter, Hawks are squarely in the frame. Norf is logical choice as they struggle to survive in Melbourne anyway. Heaven forbid, we go through another GC exercise.
I suspect if Hawthorn relocates, membership would immediately drop to about 10K, if that.
It wouldn't be us. We're one of the very few self-sufficient clubs and the members would never support it.

North makes the most sense. They can't survive on their own. But also I recall Tassie have indicated previously they don't want a re-homed club, they want their own.

So maybe the best course of action is to transfer North's AFL licence to a new Tasmanian AFL club and part of their concessions include being able to sign any of those nomad North players as free agents with incentives to have them move down there. Practically speaking North relocate, but technically it's a brand new Tasmanian club as they wanted. North Melbourne FC would then exist only in the VFL assuming they can even afford to do that.

Forming a 19th total club doesn't make sense in the current climate.
 

arupist

Premium Platinum
Oct 2, 2005
6,322
9,223
Sydney
AFL Club
Hawthorn
It wouldn't be us. We're one of the very few self-sufficient clubs and the members would never support it.

North makes the most sense. They can't survive on their own. But also I recall Tassie have indicated previously they don't want a re-homed club, they want their own.

So maybe the best course of action is to transfer North's AFL licence to a new Tasmanian AFL club and part of their concessions include being able to sign any of those nomad North players as free agents with incentives to have them move down there. Practically speaking North relocate, but technically it's a brand new Tasmanian club as they wanted. North Melbourne FC would then exist only in the VFL assuming they can even afford to do that.

Forming a 19th total club doesn't make sense in the current climate.
Makes sense. Of course they would have to ditch the Kangaroos moniker. Perhaps time for the Hobart Ferrets.
 

Flukey!

Premium Gold
Sep 23, 2005
8,680
6,910
Premiership Central
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Arsenal, Toronto BlueJays
The AFL concentrated expansion on the traditional football states first (SA and WA) and then looked for growth opportunities.
Tas is a small captive market that is already an AFL state.

Greater Western Sydney has a population of 2.5M+ and growing.
Brisbane has 2.4M people and growing
Gold Coast has a larger population than Tas as it stands today

The thing that the AFL wants is increased revenue and market share.
I don't see how Tassie brings the AFL anything of value. What's in it for them?
Not increased TV rights because there can still be only 9 matches a week unless they also add a 20th team.

I would love for Tassie to get its own team.
Then we can come home and play majority of games in Melb.
Plus, a 19th team may mean a more equitable fixture - 18 rounds only plus finals.
 

Delecate Des

Senior List
Oct 1, 2019
218
720
Somewhere over the rainbow
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Liverpool FC
It wouldn't be us. We're one of the very few self-sufficient clubs and the members would never support it.

North makes the most sense. They can't survive on their own. But also I recall Tassie have indicated previously they don't want a re-homed club, they want their own.

So maybe the best course of action is to transfer North's AFL licence to a new Tasmanian AFL club and part of their concessions include being able to sign any of those nomad North players as free agents with incentives to have them move down there. Practically speaking North relocate, but technically it's a brand new Tasmanian club as they wanted. North Melbourne FC would then exist only in the VFL assuming they can even afford to do that.

Forming a 19th total club doesn't make sense in the current climate.
North or Saints are in the more precarious positions financially you would think?? Both have small membership/support base and little recent success. Suspect the AFL would rather transplant a existing club rather than start from scratch???
 

Ned Ryerson

Future Captain
Sep 23, 2012
15,880
50,688
Punxsutawney, PA
AFL Club
Hawthorn
North or Saints are in the more precarious positions financially you would think?? Both have small membership/support base and little recent success. Suspect the AFL would rather transplant a existing club rather than start from scratch???
Both clubs are solvent and have strong net equity positions. Any talk of moving Melbourne clubs is quite frankly bullshit. We didn't cop it when Oakley tried it on us in 1996 and no other established Melbourne club should have to either. I like making fun of St Kilda and Norf as much as the next person - but I would never wish the pain of relocation on their fans here

The Suns and Giants will never have large support in their current markets and haven't got a drop in the ocean of history compared to Melbourne clubs. If there is any talk of relocation it can be one of those plastic franchises.
 

rogiebear93

Norm Smith Medallist
May 17, 2017
6,462
14,561
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Both clubs are solvent and have strong net equity positions. Any talk of moving Melbourne clubs is quite frankly bullshit. We didn't cop it when Oakley tried it on us in 1996 and no other established Melbourne club should have to either. I like making fun of St Kilda and Norf as much as the next person - but I would never wish the pain of relocation on their fans here

The Suns and Giants will never have large support in their current markets and haven't got a drop in the ocean of history compared to Melbourne clubs. If there is any talk of relocation it can be one of those plastic franchises.
This the reason why the AFL will always be hesitant to give Tasmania a side.

There are a fair few clubs that already have decent supporter bases in Tassie; Hawks, Saints, Richmond and North - none of them will ever move down there, and as far as the AFL is concerned, they're evidence that Tasmania already consume AFL at an equal or higher level than pretty much every other footy state in the country.

Tassie isn't a new market, it's small and established.
 

Dragz

Club Legend
Oct 13, 2006
2,747
1,409
Launceston
AFL Club
Hawthorn
The return on the tas governments investment in hawthorn is due to increased tourism through football. Hawthorn gives tassie national exposure plus direct football related travellers. The question is, would a tassie team provide that same benefit to the state? Would sponsors get on board? Would locals actually support a tassie team or would they stay with their existing AFL clubs?
Most local football supporters would indeed support a Tasmanian club - but as their second club. There'd not be many that would drop their own team to support a Tassie side, but a lot, if they could afford it, would buy some level of membership in order to go watch more AFL footy.
 

Remove this Banner Ad