No Opposition Supporters General AFL Discussion #11 - Carlton Posters ONLY!

footyfan78

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Do people not want to know what actually happened?

See, here's my issue: I majored in history. I'm well acquainted with the pursuit of accuracy, and the ways and means in which history is 'changed', to ensure that what is commonly believed to have been our past actually reflects what happened. People not associated with the practice of history just assume there are zero consequences involved in allowing a false history to be perpetuated. There might be another club legend, whose tale has gone begging in pursuit of glorifying a preexisting idol. There might be a political agenda, which the Dyer family is a component of (whether with or without their consent or knowledge).

And finally, there is conservativism combating the desire to change what is established that needs to be overcome before such a thing is done; this is not a simple process. Would they be doing this, dethroning an idol, for no reason? I wouldn't have thought so.
Hey mate, you majored in history. Could you look into the history of decade between 1910 and 1920 and why the league had started off counting the flags of clubs straight from 1896 to 1897 as just another football season in Melbourne and the flags they were counting from previous decades that were the convention of history of the time then got changed in 1920's. Find it fascinating as did not even know it was the case until looked up VFL records around that time and seen they were counting flags from 1870's all way into 1920 and then changed sometime in that decade.
I would not know where to look but would be interesting to see the reasons the convention got changed.
 

DangerousD

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I don't know why they would pick at that scab to begin with. Starting an investigation like this was only ever going to result in status quo, or hurting people's feelings. There was never an upside, so why bother?
I think you will find that removing the best and fairest award from the 1930s awarded to Dyer, is the opposite in the status quo.

The upside is having an accurate representation of history and not one fudged by reputation
 

Gethelred

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Hey mate, you majored in history. Could you look into the history of decade between 1910 and 1920 and why the league had started off counting the flags of clubs straight from 1896 to 1897 as just another football season in Melbourne and the flags they were counting from previous decades that were the convention of history of the time then got changed in 1920's. Find it fascinating as did not even know it was the case until looked up VFL records around that time and seen they were counting flags from 1870's all way into 1920 and then changed sometime in that decade.
I would not know where to look but would be interesting to see the reasons the convention got changed.
I'll take a look, but bear in mind it's not a simple question.

Prior to the formation of the VFL (in 1897) using the stronger clubs in the VFA, footy was a bit of an oddball; I've a book in a box somewhere that has the extreme early history of the game that describes how they used to play the game in open fields with no boundaries, trees on the field, unlimited players, etc. AFL in the early days was a haphazard affair, and while it got codified pretty bloody quick the history of it is more oral than written, due to Aussies of the time being kind of lazy.

I'll see what I can do.
 

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Planet14

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I think you will find that removing the best and fairest award from the 1930s awarded to Dyer, is the opposite in the status quo.

The upside is having an accurate representation of history and not one fudged by reputation
That's my point, they prove Dyer really was B&F, status quo maintained, nobody any the wiser.

Alternatively, if there is doubt, it doesn't improve anything, nobody has a greater understanding or appreciation of Richmond's history. All they achieve is upsetting the people for whom the legend means something.

I could provide forensic evidence to my dear old 83 year old mother that Christ never really existed, or didn't really turn water into wine or whatever, and prove to her everything she has held dear her entirely life is a lie. It might be the accurate representation of history, but it also kind a dick move that leaves neither of us better off.
 

DangerousD

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That's my point, they prove Dyer really was B&F, status quo maintained, nobody any the wiser.

Alternatively, if there is doubt, it doesn't improve anything, nobody has a greater understanding or appreciation of Richmond's history. All they achieve is upsetting the people for whom the legend means something.

I could provide forensic evidence to my dear old 83 year old mother that Christ never really existed, or didn't really turn water into wine or whatever, and prove to her everything she has held dear her entirely life is a lie. It might be the accurate representation of history, but it also kind a dick move that leaves neither of us better off.
I like your style but I think your religion comparison isn’t the same thing.

It has upset the Dyers but who else? The Richmond board were supportive, KB seemed to accept it.

Building a legend and a reputation through falsehoods doesn’t sit the best with me.
 

Gethelred

Norm Smith Medallist
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That's my point, they prove Dyer really was B&F, status quo maintained, nobody any the wiser.

Alternatively, if there is doubt, it doesn't improve anything, nobody has a greater understanding or appreciation of Richmond's history. All they achieve is upsetting the people for whom the legend means something.

I could provide forensic evidence to my dear old 83 year old mother that Christ never really existed, or didn't really turn water into wine or whatever, and prove to her everything she has held dear her entirely life is a lie. It might be the accurate representation of history, but it also kind a dick move that leaves neither of us better off.
There is a difference between your mother's religion and who won the BNF at Richmond. Your comparison is absurd.
 

Bamboo Harvester

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Blue__Balls

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Devil's advocate, Coniglio is an experienced, talented player with strong leadership credentials, and he turned down opposition interest to re-sign long-term with the club. He's an excellent choice for captain, and it's a bit unfair to assume there is anything nefarious going on. For all we know, the player's voted him in.
 

thylacine60

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DangerousD

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Hey mate, you majored in history. Could you look into the history of decade between 1910 and 1920 and why the league had started off counting the flags of clubs straight from 1896 to 1897 as just another football season in Melbourne and the flags they were counting from previous decades that were the convention of history of the time then got changed in 1920's. Find it fascinating as did not even know it was the case until looked up VFL records around that time and seen they were counting flags from 1870's all way into 1920 and then changed sometime in that decade.
I would not know where to look but would be interesting to see the reasons the convention got changed.
Is this related to the push this year, to have the premierships reinstated? It was a decent size story mid year. It would benefit us a lot if i recall correctly.
 

footyfan78

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Is this related to the push this year, to have the premierships reinstated? It was a decent size story mid year. It would benefit us a lot if i recall correctly.
Somewhat. The Geelong guy after the premiership stuff for Cats did have some interesting things to say beyond the headlines. Does not benefit us in reality. The premierships we have are there in history, nothing changes that. I do not think the Cats guy will get his wish as we been using the same convention now of premiership counts for around 100 years. Too many generations on to change back now.

My interest in it was what was going on around 1915 to 1925 for the convention to change of how the people of the time were counting the flags?

Would give a good insight into that period. We have 22 premierships regardless. 6 before the breakaway league and 16 in this league. But it is fascinating to learn from that Geelong guy that for first few decades of VFL they just treated it as a continuation of the football seasons that had been before so in the Football Records of the time, they did not just count the league premierships from 1897 onwards but from 1870 into the 1920's. I think there must have been some league politics going on that changed that convention but as yet not been able to put exact finger on it. A historian probably could though.
 
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footyfan78

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