No Oppo Supporters General AFL Discussion #11 - Carlton Posters ONLY!

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The trend towards unattractive negative football was well before that.
I believe firmly it's origins are not too long after the interchange bench grew from 2 to 4 and then when coaches started abusing it for rotations, rather than intended purpose of interchanges it became more and more negative as was easier to sustain regular flooding by having the most fresh 18 players on field at any time. By 2005 and 06 were were already seeing the negative effects as rotations we fully in vogue by then.
... sorry to be a pedant, but I can be wrong without it being a fallacy. To be fallacious is for your argument to be proven incorrect on a logical level; we're not arguing something that can be anything more than opinion.

You're older than I am, so naturally you can go further back for your observation than I can. My earliest memories of footy are - funnily enough - 95. I remember that day being the moment I decided I would support Carlton, but given that I was 6-7 at the time, I can't really argue with you substantively.

What I can say is that professionalism was always going to change the sport in ways that would make it less attractive than the 80's/90's; amateur sports need to engage their audience far more than professional sports do, and AFL/VFL coaches treated defense like the plague prior to the professional change. You had Terry Wallace and Paul Roos at the beginning of the real change from old AFL to the new; the superflood which got Wallace a few wins with an ordinary Richmond side, and Roos essentially playing a team of professional taggers across an entire team. The AFL in a modern context follows trends; one team breaks clear, and others try to copy it. Teams tried to 'copy' Brisbane, resulting in WC and 2008 Hawthorn (two teams which ran 3 pronged forward lines); teams tried to copy Roos and Wallace by clamping down on possession around the ball (Craig, Lyon, Sanderson). Only really two coaches had 'original' ideas over the AFL era (Clarkson and Thompson) and neither could truly be said to be original; Thompson's was an old school truism that it's easier to spread a defense from the corridor, and Clarkson used Wallace and Roos in different ways.

Defensive footy keeps games closed, makes them unattractive; this is something coaches and the AFL has known for years. But the real problem at the moment - congestion - is due to exhausted players stopping and creating stoppages for the purposes of having a rest. What's more likely, that players will opt for running more to lay that next tackle/be tackled again, or that players will simply allow themselves to get taken to ground with nothing more to give in that moment? So, the trend becomes drafting players who can run more ahead of ball skills/footballing ability, and so this becomes a situation in which players who can run more get games ahead of footballers and the game gets bogged down due to errors from the athletes.

2010-11 was the apex of footy since 2000 because everyone was trying to replicate Geelong's high scoring game, and as a result the games themselves were open affairs. They could do this because players were given the licence to take the game on, and they had unlimited bench time to get a rest. Upon introducing the limited interchange, the average score per game has descended every year, and we have seen the rise of reactionary teams who set up to exhaust their opponents into making errors (Collingwood 2010, Sydney 2012, Hawthorn2013-15, Fremantle under Lyon, WC 2015-present, Adelaide 2013-17, and of course, Richmond 2016-present) in different ways; teams which use precise possession to limit their own errors, teams which pile players around the ball to smash their opponents into paste, teams which force their opponents to kick long into the back half before carving them up in a race to the other end of the field, etc. This football can be attractive, but most of the time it's the result of the team playing clinical footy instead of the organic stuff that we enjoy more; if it's not played well, it's a grind.

Removing the interchange cap would have its own issues (it was brought in to decrease the incident of high speed collisions resulting in concussion) but it would result in more people being draftable and capable of playing midfield than without, as these players that need the break can get them with increased availability. It would result in more footballers rather than athletes, although there will always be a spot for athletes who are capable footballers (Buddy's no slouch) and it would result in football played closer to the coach's gameplan. It'd undermine Richmond, because their game is running their opponents to mental exhaustion well before the physical kicks in, forcing errors due to panic, panic which could be relieved with a short rest on the bench.

This alone wouldn't make the game attractive, but a coaching trend away from reactionary play to aggressive footy again would create better footy. Aggressive footy needs teams that are able to run and to think in patterns to be able to make it work; teams that have limited breaks cannot do this.
 
Anyone notice that the more and more West coast complain, demand and want things in their favour that....... Fremantle aren't (at least publically.)

Hmmmmm, have learned a lot about which clubs have a sense of entitlement through this.
West Coast demanding that all their Qld based games are "away" games is ridiculous.
Fair enough the games against Brisbane and Gold Coast. But how do WC argue that the games against Port/Freo/Adelaide should be all home games for the opposition? Or worse, away games for all of them?

This s**t is obviously what is holding up the draw release. The AFL pandering to it is the problem. It should be quite simple - everyone has 8 home and 8 away games to come - if you are forced to play "neutral" games due to unavoidable circumstances, then half of them are home and the other half away.

The more Travis Auld panders to these demands early in the season, the more compromised it becomes later in the year.
 
West Coast demanding that all their Qld based games are "away" games is ridiculous.
Fair enough the games against Brisbane and Gold Coast. But how do WC argue that the games against Port/Freo/Adelaide should be all home games for the opposition? Or worse, away games for all of them?

This s**t is obviously what is holding up the draw release. The AFL pandering to it is the problem. It should be quite simple - everyone has 8 home and 8 away games to come - if you are forced to play "neutral" games due to unavoidable circumstances, then half of them are home and the other half away.

The more Travis Auld panders to these demands early in the season, the more compromised it becomes later in the year.
Consequence of a national comp; we get to hear whinging from all over the place.

IMO, who cares? Footy's footy; let them do their negotiation, and this season's compromised anyway.
 

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... sorry to be a pedant, but I can be wrong without it being a fallacy. To be fallacious is for your argument to be proven incorrect on a logical level; we're not arguing something that can be anything more than opinion.

You're older than I am, so naturally you can go further back for your observation than I can. My earliest memories of footy are - funnily enough - 95. I remember that day being the moment I decided I would support Carlton, but given that I was 6-7 at the time, I can't really argue with you substantively.

What I can say is that professionalism was always going to change the sport in ways that would make it less attractive than the 80's/90's; amateur sports need to engage their audience far more than professional sports do, and AFL/VFL coaches treated defense like the plague prior to the professional change. You had Terry Wallace and Paul Roos at the beginning of the real change from old AFL to the new; the superflood which got Wallace a few wins with an ordinary Richmond side, and Roos essentially playing a team of professional taggers across an entire team. The AFL in a modern context follows trends; one team breaks clear, and others try to copy it. Teams tried to 'copy' Brisbane, resulting in WC and 2008 Hawthorn (two teams which ran 3 pronged forward lines); teams tried to copy Roos and Wallace by clamping down on possession around the ball (Craig, Lyon, Sanderson). Only really two coaches had 'original' ideas over the AFL era (Clarkson and Thompson) and neither could truly be said to be original; Thompson's was an old school truism that it's easier to spread a defense from the corridor, and Clarkson used Wallace and Roos in different ways.

Defensive footy keeps games closed, makes them unattractive; this is something coaches and the AFL has known for years. But the real problem at the moment - congestion - is due to exhausted players stopping and creating stoppages for the purposes of having a rest. What's more likely, that players will opt for running more to lay that next tackle/be tackled again, or that players will simply allow themselves to get taken to ground with nothing more to give in that moment? So, the trend becomes drafting players who can run more ahead of ball skills/footballing ability, and so this becomes a situation in which players who can run more get games ahead of footballers and the game gets bogged down due to errors from the athletes.

2010-11 was the apex of footy since 2000 because everyone was trying to replicate Geelong's high scoring game, and as a result the games themselves were open affairs. They could do this because players were given the licence to take the game on, and they had unlimited bench time to get a rest. Upon introducing the limited interchange, the average score per game has descended every year, and we have seen the rise of reactionary teams who set up to exhaust their opponents into making errors (Collingwood 2010, Sydney 2012, Hawthorn2013-15, Fremantle under Lyon, WC 2015-present, Adelaide 2013-17, and of course, Richmond 2016-present) in different ways; teams which use precise possession to limit their own errors, teams which pile players around the ball to smash their opponents into paste, teams which force their opponents to kick long into the back half before carving them up in a race to the other end of the field, etc. This football can be attractive, but most of the time it's the result of the team playing clinical footy instead of the organic stuff that we enjoy more; if it's not played well, it's a grind.

Removing the interchange cap would have its own issues (it was brought in to decrease the incident of high speed collisions resulting in concussion) but it would result in more people being draftable and capable of playing midfield than without, as these players that need the break can get them with increased availability. It would result in more footballers rather than athletes, although there will always be a spot for athletes who are capable footballers (Buddy's no slouch) and it would result in football played closer to the coach's gameplan. It'd undermine Richmond, because their game is running their opponents to mental exhaustion well before the physical kicks in, forcing errors due to panic, panic which could be relieved with a short rest on the bench.

This alone wouldn't make the game attractive, but a coaching trend away from reactionary play to aggressive footy again would create better footy. Aggressive footy needs teams that are able to run and to think in patterns to be able to make it work; teams that have limited breaks cannot do this.
Hey mate, I'll read the essay tomorrow and get back to you.;)
 
Interesting to read that the AFL is playing hard ball about rookies being eligible for the Jobkeeper payment because it may lead to salary cap breaches. Rookies are probably the hardest hit group due to their low wages and now the AFL argues that they can’t get a subsistence payment when their contract stops paying them.
 
2010-11 was the apex of footy since 2000 because everyone was trying to replicate Geelong's high scoring game, and as a result the games themselves were open affairs. They could do this because players were given the licence to take the game on, and they had unlimited bench time to get a rest. Upon introducing the limited interchange, the average score per game has descended every year, and we have seen the rise of reactionary teams who set up to exhaust their opponents into making errors (Collingwood 2010, Sydney 2012, Hawthorn2013-15, Fremantle under Lyon, WC 2015-present, Adelaide 2013-17, and of course, Richmond 2016-present) in different ways; teams which use precise possession to limit their own errors, teams which pile players around the ball to smash their opponents into paste, teams which force their opponents to kick long into the back half before carving them up in a race to the other end of the field, etc. This football can be attractive, but most of the time it's the result of the team playing clinical footy instead of the organic stuff that we enjoy more; if it's not played well, it's a grind.

Can you clear up, your stance on 2010-11 being the apex of football due to attacking football as there was no interchange cap, but not mentioning the cap didn't come in until 5 years after that period?

By including Collingwoods 2010 team, Sydney 2012 and the Hawks 2013-15 as examples of negative play or styles, haven't you diminished your own point that the interchange is heavily to blame for poor footy, as all of those sides were before the introduction of the interchange cap?
 
Can you clear up, your stance on 2010-11 being the apex of football due to attacking football as there was no interchange cap, but not mentioning the cap didn't come in until 5 years after that period?

By including Collingwoods 2010 team, Sydney 2012 and the Hawks 2013-15 as examples of negative play or styles, haven't you diminished your own point that the interchange is heavily to blame for poor footy, as all of those sides were before the introduction of the interchange cap?
Do you think the games attractiveness has diminished over the years? If so what do you believe is the cause(s)?
 
Anyone notice that the more and more West coast complain, demand and want things in their favour that....... Fremantle aren't (at least publically.)

Hmmmmm, have learned a lot about which clubs have a sense of entitlement through this.
You're getting this when?
 
Do you think the games attractiveness has diminished over the years? If so what do you believe is the cause(s)?

For me the game is over officiated. Pay the frees that are genuinely an unfair advantage . The innocuous contact stuff and that exclusion zone thingy no. Game would flow more.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
For me the game is over officiated. Pay the frees that are genuinely an unfair advantage . The innocuous contact stuff and that exclusion zone thingy no. Game would flow more.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
Tuff one. Very difficult job imo. Some umpires do a great job in minimising their presence and impact on the flow of the game but others struggle.
 
Can you clear up, your stance on 2010-11 being the apex of football due to attacking football as there was no interchange cap, but not mentioning the cap didn't come in until 5 years after that period?

By including Collingwoods 2010 team, Sydney 2012 and the Hawks 2013-15 as examples of negative play or styles, haven't you diminished your own point that the interchange is heavily to blame for poor footy, as all of those sides were before the introduction of the interchange cap?
By snipping a decent portion of the post, you've somewhat reduced my argument; I do go on, though, so it's probably reasonable.

My argument was twofold:
One, reduced interchange has impacted on football style/trends via gameplay and drafting. It has resulted in genuine footballers being overlooked in favour of runners who can go for longer, and in gameplans designed to pounce on opposition errors rather than make the play themselves.

By looking solely at the game with the reduced interchange, you ignore the earlier version of it, the sub rule. While a cap of interchange is different, the sub rule functioned as a similar 'cap' on player fitness levels, which created the trend by which the cap later followed.

Two, the gameplay 'trends' (for want of a better term) moved away from trying to make the play to defensive games, as people tried to follow what made Hawthorn 08 work, St Kilda, Collingwood 2010, and Sydney 2012; all successful teams with defensive games. The prevailing notion being, you might not be a generational team, but you could pinch a flag with defensive innovation.

A player like Dane Swan would not be able to function currently. He played off the bench; go flat out for 5 minutes, have a rest, then go again. No-one can deny the bloke could football, but someone like him - who needs a rest every few minutes - simply wouldn't get drafted.

Any change made would take years to completely affect the game itself; drafters change their targets based on new thinking, coaches adapt and then readapt, etc. A removal of the interchange cap would see increased running during games, but it would take that time and a change of trend towards aggressive footy to improve spectacle, IMO. However, I don't see the AFL doing it; they brought it in to halt the supposed rise in high speed head impacts resulting in concussion. I suppose it's done its job there, but surely there could be another measure to protect players from hurting themselves?

In any case, I've probably gone on long enough.
 

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Hoping we play a good side in round 2.

Reckon skills are going to be pretty rusty across the board early on, and I'd rather that temporarily bridge the gap between us and the better sides than us and the worse.
Could be a chance that some sides come back half asleep, might get the jump on some. God, that'd be great for that to go our way for once!
 
Do you think the games attractiveness has diminished over the years? If so what do you believe is the cause(s)?

Most definitely I do,I find it hard though to pin point what was this great time of football we crave.

min my mind it’s 1999 to early 2000s but is that because we were still challenging in those years and I was more invested?

min very simple terms, the unattractive football is caused by major issues with congestion, the move away from dedicated positions and coaches flooding, by flooding I mean, any form of playing excessive numbers in any position.

I think most people could agree congestion is the enemy, I’m in the opposite camp to Getherald though, where I am in favour of interchange restrictions.
 
By snipping a decent portion of the post, you've somewhat reduced my argument; I do go on, though, so it's probably reasonable.

My argument was twofold:
One, reduced interchange has impacted on football style/trends via gameplay and drafting. It has resulted in genuine footballers being overlooked in favour of runners who can go for longer, and in gameplans designed to pounce on opposition errors rather than make the play themselves.

By looking solely at the game with the reduced interchange, you ignore the earlier version of it, the sub rule. While a cap of interchange is different, the sub rule functioned as a similar 'cap' on player fitness levels, which created the trend by which the cap later followed.

Two, the gameplay 'trends' (for want of a better term) moved away from trying to make the play to defensive games, as people tried to follow what made Hawthorn 08 work, St Kilda, Collingwood 2010, and Sydney 2012; all successful teams with defensive games. The prevailing notion being, you might not be a generational team, but you could pinch a flag with defensive innovation.

A player like Dane Swan would not be able to function currently. He played off the bench; go flat out for 5 minutes, have a rest, then go again. No-one can deny the bloke could football, but someone like him - who needs a rest every few minutes - simply wouldn't get drafted.

Any change made would take years to completely affect the game itself; drafters change their targets based on new thinking, coaches adapt and then readapt, etc. A removal of the interchange cap would see increased running during games, but it would take that time and a change of trend towards aggressive footy to improve spectacle, IMO. However, I don't see the AFL doing it; they brought it in to halt the supposed rise in high speed head impacts resulting in concussion. I suppose it's done its job there, but surely there could be another measure to protect players from hurting themselves?

In any case, I've probably gone on long enough.

Cheers for the post, I totally agree with your point two above, but tend to disagree with most of the rest and would say that a lot of what you mention could just as easily be used in an arguement for the reduction of interchange (which I like).

Interchange rotations doubled from 2007 to 2010, probably making the game faster and frantic like you said, which would have changed the type of player required and shifted the focus to more athletic types rather than natural footballers.

without having stats to back it up, I’d suggest the explosion in interchange numbers considerably reduced scoring and a quick look at some average graphs backs this up. The explosion in interchange numbers imo was used to make players cover more of the ground and work harder, further eroding designated positions and encouraging congestion.

there is no doubt scoring has dropped considerably in the last 20 years, but scoring was a lot higher from 2000-2007 when the avg interchange was 60 per game compared to 2010-2012 when it was 100.

Whilst I’m a big advocate for reducing the cap, I doubt we will see any meaningful change unless it’s stripped back another 15 to 20 per game
 
Anyone notice that the more and more West coast complain, demand and want things in their favour that....... Fremantle aren't (at least publically.)

Hmmmmm, have learned a lot about which clubs have a sense of entitlement through this.
One has $50 mill in the bank and the other is asking for AFL assistance.

For anyone that lives or has lived in WA know that the Dockers are treated like 2nd class citizens in Perth. Channel 7 Perth and The West Australian newspaper basically are an offshoot of the Eagles media department.
 
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