No Oppo Supporters General AFL Discussion #12 - Carlton Posters ONLY!

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footyfan1978

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Not too sure about that

He is a proud and passionate man when it comes to Collingwood and you want that in your president, but maybe toned down 35%.
You do not have to agree. I know a lot of people buy into his self-salesman ways to make out he motivated for good of all clubs. I seen through that bullshit but it was clever spill he always done.
But I have always known he was genuine in his passion for his own club and his club are better at the end of his time there, than they were when he took the role on. He knows a lot of things he sold as an idea for smaller clubs indirectly helped his real love of Collingwood. That is why I say Collingwood will not be better without him.
 

Blue Pulse

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You do not have to agree. I know a lot of people buy into his self-salesman ways to make out he motivated for good of all clubs. I seen through that bullshit but it was clever spill he always done.
But I have always known he was genuine in his passion for his own club and his club are better at the end of his time there, than they were when he took the role on. He knows a lot of things he sold as an idea for smaller clubs indirectly helped his real love of Collingwood. That is why I say Collingwood will not be better without him.
Your opinion to me is as valuable as mine 1978, we all take different views of many situations.

I'm out of WA where the media savaged him and took quotes out of context, when I came here I listened to him on MMM, he has some great views on Australian made products and loves Victoria, when he spoke about Collingwood, I would tune out because the passion side of the brain overtook the sensible side of the brain.

With regards to the bold sentence above, of course he did and as a supporter of his club you wouldn't want it any other way.
 

footyfan1978

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Your opinion to me is as valuable as mine 1978, we all take different views of many situations.

With regards to the bold sentence above, of course he did and as a supporter of his club you wouldn't want it any other way.
Exactly, he was great for Collingwood. They were in way more trouble when he started than they are now.
Best thing he did for his club was the deal he got to embed them deeply into the MCG when it was getting re-done.
First season as president at Waverley Park we presented him with ice pole stick as token gesture for their wooden spoon.
His face went red with anger and slammed the Waverley Park glass window shut whilst on radio.
Underneath it all he just like every other supporter that loves their club and would do anything to advance their cause.
 

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Elmer_Judd

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I feel sorry for him, I think his heart was in the right place but he chose to spin a very heated and important issue at precisely the wrong time in history. I think a lot of the attacks on him are unwarranted and unEddiefying.
Was his heart in the right place when he joked on a air with his Bogan mates about drowning Caroline Wilson ?.

It's not just the racist gaffes and turning a blind eye to it at Collingwood which is why so many are angry at Eddie. He has made misogynist and homophobic comments in the past in the media as well whilst President of Collingwood..

And he was a ring leader in one of the all time champions of the modern game Adam Goodes leaving the game in very bad terms after years of being booed which resulted in Goodes suffering from depression/mental health issues as a result.

Your pity and empathy for Eddie are sorely misguided friend.

Eddie's departure from Collingwood is a culmination of years of bad/unacceptable behaviour.

Footy and society in general has evolved and it no Longer has room in it for the likes of Eddie.
 

Gethelred

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Footy and society in general has evolved and it no Longer has room in it for the likes of Eddie.
I agree ostensibly with what you're saying, Elmer. It's good that he's stepping aside, and he was instrumental in the culture at Collingwood being the way it was. But by excluding Eddie, you condemn him and others like him to more than silence; you prevent them from seeing what he's done as wrong. He's embittered, and in all probability gets worse and more extreme in his views. He becomes lost to the game, and that would be a terrible, terrible shame.

I'm not for excluding people. I've no faith in the AFL establishment that this sh*t was covered up and continues to be covered up - check out the Joel Wilkinson thread on the scandals board, to see how the excuses add up - but getting rid of people is wrong.

Helping them see that what they're doing is wrong, awful, bad for them and for everyone else, that's the goal. Otherwise, all you end up with is bitter, disenfranchised arseholes whose ideas have petrified further.

Just to be clear: this is something I'd extend to almost anyone, Eddie isn't special. A hard stance on things looks good and sells well, but doesn't result in better outcomes.
 

MrsEddieBetts

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I agree ostensibly with what you're saying, Elmer. It's good that he's stepping aside, and he was instrumental in the culture at Collingwood being the way it was. But by excluding Eddie, you condemn him and others like him to more than silence; you prevent them from seeing what he's done as wrong. He's embittered, and in all probability gets worse and more extreme in his views. He becomes lost to the game, and that would be a terrible, terrible shame.

I'm not for excluding people. I've no faith in the AFL establishment that this sh*t was covered up and continues to be covered up - check out the Joel Wilkinson thread on the scandals board, to see how the excuses add up - but getting rid of people is wrong.

Helping them see that what they're doing is wrong, awful, bad for them and for everyone else, that's the goal. Otherwise, all you end up with is bitter, disenfranchised arseholes whose ideas have petrified further.

Just to be clear: this is something I'd extend to almost anyone, Eddie isn't special. A hard stance on things looks good and sells well, but doesn't result in better outcomes.
Some people refuse to be educated. Eddie’s a clear example. He receives a commissioned report that is fairly damning and still says that Collingwood isn’t a racist club. People have to be open to change and learning.
 

azlou

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Even in his speech look what I did here women’s football,netball,pride flags.
I see him a bit like Steve jobs look at my EarPods,Mac,phone
How many computer scientists programmer developers actually conceptualised and built it behind the scenes.
Eddie seems to want to take a lot of credit for community programmes that ide bet are brought to him with the majority of the hard yards done behind the scenes by people that get no credit.
Yet when things go pear shaped he deflects to I’m a lightning Rod and I’m stepping aside for the greater good.
He never took ownership of what transpired at Collingwood he denied it till the end
The only good thing to come out of this is watching sanctimonious Sam lose his colonoscopy bag
 

Gethelred

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Some people refuse to be educated. Eddie’s a clear example. He receives a commissioned report that is fairly damning and still says that Collingwood isn’t a racist club. People have to be open to change and learning.
And excluding them, reviling them, exiling them and keeping them apart from the rest of us accomplishes this how? I agree that you cannot make a horse drink if it doesn't want to, but it behoves us to make the attempt.

If the point of prison is punishment, then all we'll have when they get out is the punished.
 

MrsEddieBetts

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And excluding them, reviling them, exiling them and keeping them apart from the rest of us accomplishes this how? I agree that you cannot make a horse drink if it doesn't want to, but it behoves us to make the attempt.

If the point of prison is punishment, then all we'll have when they get out is the punished.
He’s finally facing some consequences. You truly don’t think people have tried to educated him before? It’s always a gaffe, or he misspoke, or it was a joke that didn’t land. It’s never his fault. When one doesn’t accept that one is in the wrong, or refuses to listen, one will never grow. Attempting to educate is pissing into the wind. Actions have consequences and it’s high time that Eddie faced some.
 

Broadside

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He’s finally facing some consequences. You truly don’t think people have tried to educated him before? It’s always a gaffe, or he misspoke, or it was a joke that didn’t land. It’s never his fault. When one doesn’t accept that one is in the wrong, or refuses to listen, one will never grow. Attempting to educate is pissing into the wind. Actions have consequences and it’s high time that Eddie faced some.
What does not sit well with me in all this is that Eddie has done a great deal more good than bad over the journey and he is now some kind pariah. It’s not right it’s just a pile on.
 

Blue Flame

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What does not sit well with me in all this is that Eddie has done a great deal more good than bad over the journey and he is now some kind pariah. It’s not right it’s just a pile on.
He'll be alright. He doesn't mind a pile-on, as evidenced when he gleefully pointed everyone in the direction of Goodes
 

Gethelred

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He’s finally facing some consequences. You truly don’t think people have tried to educated him before? It’s always a gaffe, or he misspoke, or it was a joke that didn’t land. It’s never his fault. When one doesn’t accept that one is in the wrong, or refuses to listen, one will never grow. Attempting to educate is pissing into the wind. Actions have consequences and it’s high time that Eddie faced some.
I think that people above a certain level of wealth and influence are insulated from the realities of the world, and that includes the consequences of your actions. I thoroughly agree with what you've said in this post. This is not where I'm objecting.

What I'm saying is social ostrasization results not in people re-evaluating their life choices or their deeds, but very frequently forces people's opinions to become more solidified. Each and every time you call someone a criminal, a racist, a homophobe, you force them to be the criminal, the racist, the homophobe; it could certainly be argued that they did that by their actions, but by labelling them in that way it reduces that label to all they are. That becomes who they are, what they're known for; it separates us from them. You want to know how people end up hating with all the depths of their being? You force them into it. You fight fire with fire.
 
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MrsEddieBetts

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I think that people above a certain level of wealth and influence are insulated from the realities of the world, and that includes the consequences of your actions. I thoroughly agree with what you've said in this post. This is not where I'm objecting.

What I'm saying is social ostrasization results not in people re-evaluating their life choices or their deeds, but very frequently forces people's opinions to become more solidified. Each and every time you call someone a criminal, a racist, a homophobe, you force them to be the criminal, the racist, the homophobe; it could certainly be argued that they did that by their actions, but by labelling them in that way it reduces that label to all they are. That becomes who they are, what they're known for; it separates us from them. You want to know how people end up hating with all the depths of their being? You force them into it. You fight fire with fire.
I dunno. I don’t think being called a racist is worse than actually being racist. In my experience those call ins are often ineffective when one is a rusted on racist/misogynist/homophobe etc. It seems to always be on the wronged party to turn the other cheek and expend their emotional labour on education.

Eddie McGuire is a grown man with a fu**load of privilege. He could have worked this out for himself long ago if he was only willing to listen.

He’s gonna be fine anyway. He’s only lost one job out of about a gazillion.
 

Blue Flame

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I think that people above a certain level of wealth and influence are insulated from the realities of the world, and that includes the consequences of your actions. I thoroughly agree with what you've said in this post. This is not where I'm objecting.

What I'm saying is social ostrasization results not in people re-evaluating their life choices or their deeds, but very frequently forces people's opinions to become more solidified. Each and every time you call someone a criminal, a racist, a homophobe, you force them to be the criminal, the racist, the homophobe; it could certainly be argued that they did that by their actions, but by labelling them in that way it reduces that label to all they are. That becomes who they are, what they're known for; it separates us from them. You want to know how people end up hating with all the depths of their being? You force them into it. You fight fire with fire.
I get where you're coming from with this, but at some point people have to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions. So in Ed's case, he's being fired and criticised for things he actually did and said. Because what's the alternative?
If you leave him in as pres, and there are no consequences, that legitimises those views. Any public blowback is a result of him carefully planting himself in the constant public limelight.

So in your analogy, the sexist or homophobe needs to at least be told that their views are abhorrent or hurtful. Otherwise they are given licence to repeat them. That hasn't made them sexist, they were already being sexist at the beginning - it was their choice as well to double down after that.

I guess when you're in a position of power like Eddie, you get to choose what kind of community you create. By definition you can't be inclusive of both a casually racist culture and also a racially diverse and inclusive culture - they are diametrically opposed. He made his choice, now he can learn from it or double down - I hope he is smart enough to do the former.
 

Gethelred

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I dunno. I don’t think being called a racist is worse than actually being racist.
Not what I'm saying. I just don't think excluding people is the way, and that includes those who might get left behind.
In my experience those call ins are often ineffective when one is a rusted on racist/misogynist/homophobe etc. It seems to always be on the wronged party to turn the other cheek and expend their emotional labour on education.
I agree, and it is unfair. Just, I don't know any other way, if you're genuinely going to try to change someone's mind about something.

Here's the thing: this is not an area in which I feel 100% committed to my views. I've not suffered racism, or homophobia, or real prejudice in any way, so I do speak from a position of priviledge.
Eddie McGuire is a grown man with a fu**load of privilege. He could have worked this out for himself long ago if he was only willing to listen.

He’s gonna be fine anyway. He’s only lost one job out of about a gazillion.
I know, and my response to Elmer isn't really about Eddie. It's about how we treat the people around us.

There's a terrific song - if you like rap, or protest rap - about this very thing:


The key part of those lyrics is:
Imagine the world that you're standing within
All of your neighbors, they're family-friends
How would you cope facing the fact
The flesh on their hands was tainted with sin?
She faced this every day
People she saw on a regular basis
People she loved, in several cases
People she knew were incredibly racist
It was painful, but she never stopped loving them
Never stopped callin' their names
And she never stopped being a Southern woman
And she never stopped fighting for change
That's the challenge for us, I think. I can't solve racism, but I can call it out, and I can continue to argue with those people who are racist but still treating them with the respect they deserve. It is only when I choose to leave them behind - that they are beyond all help, that they are racist and there's no changing it - that they are truly lost to me.

And that is where I stand on this. I'm not defending Eddie for the things he's said or done, and I'll say that they were racist until they cease needing to be said. But he is human, and because he's human he needs to both be confronted with what he did but still supported by those around him, not shunned and shunted off.

He'll be fine, as you say. But others without his prominence will not.
 

MrsEddieBetts

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Not what I'm saying. I just don't think excluding people is the way, and that includes those who might get left behind.
I agree, and it is unfair. Just, I don't know any other way, if you're genuinely going to try to change someone's mind about something.

Here's the thing: this is not an area in which I feel 100% committed to my views. I've not suffered racism, or homophobia, or real prejudice in any way, so I do speak from a position of priviledge.

I know, and my response to Elmer isn't really about Eddie. It's about how we treat the people around us.

There's a terrific song - if you like rap, or protest rap - about this very thing:


The key part of those lyrics is:

That's the challenge for us, I think. I can't solve racism, but I can call it out, and I can continue to argue with those people who are racist but still treating them with the respect they deserve. It is only when I choose to leave them behind - that they are beyond all help, that they are racist and there's no changing it - that they are truly lost to me.

And that is where I stand on this. I'm not defending Eddie for the things he's said or done, and I'll say that they were racist until they cease needing to be said. But he is human, and because he's human he needs to both be confronted with what he did but still supported by those around him, not shunned and shunted off.

He'll be fine, as you say. But others without his prominence will not.
Yeh I’m gonna tap out here.
 

Neese

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I feel sorry for him, I think his heart was in the right place but he chose to spin a very heated and important issue at precisely the wrong time in history. I think a lot of the attacks on him are unwarranted and unEddiefying.
Disagree, he has a long list of saying horrible things (you could call it systematic) and it should have been nipped in the bud well before now. Have you watched either of the two Adam Goodes documentaries? Eddie, Sam and the other boys club members do not come out looking great.

Middle aged, wealthy white people don't really get to be the judge of what is racist or not to somebody of colour. And the system is wrong when people who have repeatedly spoken up about how they feel they were treated are doubled down on.

I also recommend watching this where Tony Armstrong speaks eloquently about this
 

myblueroan

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And excluding them, reviling them, exiling them and keeping them apart from the rest of us accomplishes this how? I agree that you cannot make a horse drink if it doesn't want to, but it behoves us to make the attempt.

If the point of prison is punishment, then all we'll have when they get out is the punished.
I like what you are saying. In Ed's case he needed to go. This is after many years and time for re educating along the way. After Goodes..I mean if he didn't make a massive effort then or have others explaining to him..I think this is now a final way that he will learn and reflect. Not in public but I think he will 'get it'. Sometimes learning comes in harsh forms. He had to go Geth.
 

OnceWeWereKings

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Was his heart in the right place when he joked on a air with his Bogan mates about drowning Caroline Wilson ?.

It's not just the racist gaffes and turning a blind eye to it at Collingwood which is why so many are angry at Eddie. He has made misogynist and homophobic comments in the past in the media as well whilst President of Collingwood..

And he was a ring leader in one of the all time champions of the modern game Adam Goodes leaving the game in very bad terms after years of being booed which resulted in Goodes suffering from depression/mental health issues as a result.

Your pity and empathy for Eddie are sorely misguided friend.

Eddie's departure from Collingwood is a culmination of years of bad/unacceptable behaviour.

Footy and society in general has evolved and it no Longer has room in it for the likes of Eddie.
fu** you must live a boring existence up there on your white horse of righteousness.
It gets ******* tiresome for those of us that aren’t as perfect as yourself.
 

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