General AFL thread 2016

[plugger66]

The worst of it is that the new tenants would have to pay down the loan. I wonder which clubs would need a new home.....they should totally get them to pay for it. Essendon could go to the G because a little boutique wouldn't suit them. It would leave the Dogs and Saints though. They don't mind debts. Eddie should tenant it with the place with the oppressive debt cycle that goes with it.

Why is there a debt?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

On the other hand Princes Park could have and still could be developed.

The reasons it never happened are :
Owned by the wrong club .
a) It was too small for a Carlton home ground.
b) Public Transport.
c) Vehicle transport.

a) As an asset Carlton make nothing from revenue for this ground now.
If the AFL were to redevelop it a deal could be struck where the AFL/Teams collected game day revenue. Carlton could retain ownership and make money from NAB challenge games and any other funcitons who wanted to book the Stadium. Win/Win.

b) MCG is 650m from Richmond Station. Princes Park oval is 1km from Royal Park Station.
This is where our ever reliable ( remember the Waverly railway line ) State Government needs to come to the party.
The Royal Park Station can be upgraded and pedestrian access to the line could be vastly improved, including an overpass over Royal parade.
Lots can be done here , Hong Kong has a 2.4 Km long outdoor escalator. Well lit and completely covered by surveillance camera's.

c) Well it was going to be close to the Tullamarine Freeway, but we spent a small fortune to ensure that didn't happen. Can we assume it will happen one day? Its not that far from the end of the Easter, which opens up the south south/east now that eastlink is there.
The roads coming off the end of the freeway are a bit of a mess, i guess it depends if we can ever upgrade our road infrastructure from the state of the art 1940's that most of it seems to be.

 

[plugger66]

On the other hand Princes Park could have and still could be developed.

The reasons it never happened are :
Owned by the wrong club .
a) It was too small for a Carlton home ground.
b) Public Transport.
c) Vehicle transport.

a) As an asset Carlton make nothing from revenue for this ground now.
If the AFL were to redevelop it a deal could be struck where the AFL/Teams collected game day revenue. Carlton could retain ownership and make money from NAB challenge games and any other funcitons who wanted to book the Stadium. Win/Win.

b) MCG is 650m from Richmond Station. Princes Park oval is 1km from Royal Park Station.
This is where our ever reliable ( remember the Waverly railway line ) State Government needs to come to the party.
The Royal Park Station can be upgraded and pedestrian access to the line could be vastly improved, including an overpass over Royal parade.
Lots can be done here , Hong Kong has a 2.4 Km long outdoor escalator. Well lit and completely covered by surveillance camera's.

c) Well it was going to be close to the Tullamarine Freeway, but we spent a small fortune to ensure that didn't happen. Can we assume it will happen one day? Its not that far from the end of the Easter, which opens up the south south/east now that eastlink is there.
The roads coming off the end of the freeway are a bit of a mess, i guess it depends if we can ever upgrade our road infrastructure from the state of the art 1940's that most of it seems to be.

Id rather play at Tootgarook. Its in the middle on nowhere as far as public transport and driving is concerned and I doubt it would be allowed to be made into a 50k seat stadium anyway if we need to replace Etihad.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The worst of it is that the new tenants would have to pay down the loan. I wonder which clubs would need a new home.....they should totally get them to pay for it. Essendon could go to the G because a little boutique wouldn't suit them. It would leave the Dogs and Saints though. They don't mind debts. Eddie should tenant it with the place with the oppressive debt cycle that goes with it.

A lot of people still aren't happy with the club equalization tax. These flogs talk about "why should the GOOD clubs pay for the ones who aren't run well" . I assume they are talking about good clubs like the one my little avatar man plays for or the other one that kept using their money to cheat.

My solution here is that the AFL pick up the tab for ALL games at Etihad and charge the tenant clubs the same rate that the MCG charges with the clubs still making the gate money.
The AFL are then left with a shortfall. All clubs then pay for their share of the shortfall.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Id rather play at Tootgarook. Its in the middle on nowhere as far as public transport and driving is concerned and I doubt it would be allowed to be made into a 50k seat stadium anyway if we need to replace Etihad.

No it would not be a Etihad replacement . would be as well as.
Love the idea of Tootgarook, but the boat access would be a bit limited. Needs a better Jetty.

Did i not address the topic of public transport and driving? I'm open to why you think i'm wrong but please don't act like i didn't mention it.
Compare Eddie's location to Etihad for a person coming from Footscray , Moonee Ponds etc and tell me its not a terrible deal for them by car or public transport , remembering that Bulldogs are one of the affected teams.

 

[gringo2011]

On the other hand Princes Park could have and still could be developed.

The reasons it never happened are :
Owned by the wrong club .
a) It was too small for a Carlton home ground.
b) Public Transport.
c) Vehicle transport.

a) As an asset Carlton make nothing from revenue for this ground now.
If the AFL were to redevelop it a deal could be struck where the AFL/Teams collected game day revenue. Carlton could retain ownership and make money from NAB challenge games and any other funcitons who wanted to book the Stadium. Win/Win.

b) MCG is 650m from Richmond Station. Princes Park oval is 1km from Royal Park Station.
This is where our ever reliable ( remember the Waverly railway line ) State Government needs to come to the party.
The Royal Park Station can be upgraded and pedestrian access to the line could be vastly improved, including an overpass over Royal parade.
Lots can be done here , Hong Kong has a 2.4 Km long outdoor escalator. Well lit and completely covered by surveillance camera's.

c) Well it was going to be close to the Tullamarine Freeway, but we spent a small fortune to ensure that didn't happen. Can we assume it will happen one day? Its not that far from the end of the Easter, which opens up the south south/east now that eastlink is there.
The roads coming off the end of the freeway are a bit of a mess, i guess it depends if we can ever upgrade our road infrastructure from the state of the art 1940's that most of it seems to be.

Princess Park was redeveloped by a stubborn John Elliott who despite being close to Ian Collins disregarded the AFL telling him it would never be used. Etihad management was guaranteed minimum games which meant even teams like Geelong had to play some home games there despite having a small inner city supporter base.

 

[plugger66]

No it would not be a Etihad replacement . would be as well as.
Love the idea of Tootgarook, but the boat access would be a bit limited. Needs a better Jetty.

Did i not address the topic of public transport and driving? I'm open to why you think i'm wrong but please don't act like i didn't mention it.
Compare Eddie's location to Etihad for a person coming from Footscray , Moonee Ponds etc and tell me its not a terrible deal for them by car or public transport , remembering that Bulldogs are one of the affected teams.

I don't think you are wrong about transport, I just think it is crap even if they did as you said. No parking, no direct trains like Etihad or the G. And to be honest why are we worried about people from Footscray? Are we worried about people from East Bentleigh who have to get to Etihad? Its a massive 2 extra stops from Footscray to the G. As for driving well I haven't got a clue. I don't drive to any footy games except my local club. However I have been in a car on the Monash freeway on a Friday to try and get to Etihad and it takes forever. Reckon it would be quicker from Footscray to the G.

Just one thing. Why do we need a third stadium anyway?

 

[maanco]

Why Does Victoria need a fourth AFL grade Stadium anyway?

Are the MCG, Docklands, and Kardinia Park not enough?

 

[Gangnam Saint]

Why Does Victoria need a fourth AFL grade Stadium anyway?

Are the MCG, Docklands, and Kardinia Park not enough?

Inference is Docklands would disappear.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

FWIW the rail is getting less and less relevant.
It can be made more relevant but that would depend upon our Government.

Melbourne is expanding like a circle.
There are 9 spokes in the circle.
As the circle gets bigger more and more people are living further from a spoke.
This means we need either more train lines or we need to make railway stations more accessible to people travelling to the station by car.
In general the stations are not made in a manner that makes it easy to park in a station and get on a train. They could be but they are not.
They still put stations near busy intersections. Something that may have made sense 100 years ago.
The Monash drives past several stations on the way to the city. You can see them, but it is a twenty minute drive to exit the freeway and get to one of them, and then there is no parking.

The current system is based on a last century model where people walked to the Station and caught the train to work. Not working now.
There are too many small stations too close together so all of the trains take just as long as our congested freeway system.

Myki.
My family used to catch trains to the city sometimes. They had cheap fares for family groups.
Now they have Myki.
Two of my kids have Myki.
I will not be buying 3 more so the rest of the family can go to the footy occasionally.
If anyone thinks that Myki is a good thing i'd be happy to start a thread on why i consider it the biggest pile of steaming dog crap that any rail in the world has tried to implement.

 

[RoundCubic]

On the other hand Princes Park could have and still could be developed.

The reasons it never happened are :
Owned by the wrong club .
a) It was too small for a Carlton home ground.
b) Public Transport.
c) Vehicle transport.

a) As an asset Carlton make nothing from revenue for this ground now.
If the AFL were to redevelop it a deal could be struck where the AFL/Teams collected game day revenue. Carlton could retain ownership and make money from NAB challenge games and any other funcitons who wanted to book the Stadium. Win/Win.

b) MCG is 650m from Richmond Station. Princes Park oval is 1km from Royal Park Station.
This is where our ever reliable ( remember the Waverly railway line ) State Government needs to come to the party.
The Royal Park Station can be upgraded and pedestrian access to the line could be vastly improved, including an overpass over Royal parade.
Lots can be done here , Hong Kong has a 2.4 Km long outdoor escalator. Well lit and completely covered by surveillance camera's.

c) Well it was going to be close to the Tullamarine Freeway, but we spent a small fortune to ensure that didn't happen. Can we assume it will happen one day? Its not that far from the end of the Easter, which opens up the south south/east now that eastlink is there.
The roads coming off the end of the freeway are a bit of a mess, i guess it depends if we can ever upgrade our road infrastructure from the state of the art 1940's that most of it seems to be.

I got a better cheaper plan get private developers to buy the houses on Clay and Margaret st, the Bowls club and the business park on linton st let them turn it into medium and high rise mixed apartments/office/hotel with ground level shops surrounding a 15-20k stadium with attached aquartics, gym, basketball/netball centre and Saints admin centre with multi story car park.
Screw the 15million redevelopment lets go for an 800million like GWS in Canberra. State gov can pay for a light rail from Brighton beach station to Moorabbin up South rd then Warrigal rd to North rd to Huntingdale station then continue it to Monash uni.
Moorabbin and the Saints training spiritual home becomes a bay side region centre and mini CBD with a mix of uni students, professionals, young families and offices that cater to people who in the outer suburbs and reduces congestion into the CBD like Chatswood in Sydney has become with the Epping to Chatswood link

 

[gringo2011]

Why is there a debt?

If they redevelop the new stadium. It will cost a fortune and the government and AFL will do some deal where the public pays and a private operator gets all the profits for 20 years or until the roof falls in. The loan will need to be repaid and the operator will want to pay a stipend only. It's how PPPs work. The public pays and the operator runs it badly and takes all the money with no real outlay. The AFL will expect tenant clubs to pay down the loan so they can look good on paper.

 

[gringo2011]

Inference is Docklands would disappear.

Yep they think if they spend half a billion of taxpayer money turning the ground into a parklike thoroughfare all these people will buy the developers dud apartments that are unsafe due to terrible building practices like flammable balconies. They government bought them a multi million dollar ferris wheel that no one dare ride on and that didn't work so buy a lane way between the towers that will fix it.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yep they think if they spend half a billion of taxpayer money turning the ground into a parklike thoroughfare all these people will buy the developers dud apartments that are unsafe due to terrible building practices like flammable balconies. They government bought them a multi million dollar ferris wheel that no one dare ride on and that didn't work so buy a lane way between the towers that will fix it.

My personal like ( as far as bullshit goes ) is " everyone knows that high density housing is more energy efficient so its better for the environment"
Even really really old buildings in the USA and Europe have central heating.
Some European CITIES have central heating.
Our Apartments ( which used to be called flats but no-one wanted to live in flats so they changed the name to apoortments ) have reverse cycle electric heating/air conditioning. No this is not particularly efficient. But it IS keeping Hazelwood power station running.

 

[StFly]

The Docklands is a nice place... near all the pubs and open bars on the waters edge. The place has pretty much been ruined by the ALP & Lib govs who opened it up for apartment living, changed regulations and / or disregarded it to then pack them in as close as they can to effectively box up Dockland, bulldozing Etihad under Eddies plan would simply shaft the northern part of the state since there's no direct line to the MCG PT wise for anyone north of the city, it's all by proxy 1-3trains/trams. But it is better because it is surrounded by greenery, there is a sense of the MCG and it's chill, it's relax then you step inside and it's a coliseum of sporting gods as you approach.

Etihad, Etihad had a walk,m had a bridge, over trainlines with wood and water the closer you got to the stadium, it could have been a boutique stadium for Friday nights which end with wood, water, music, drinks where you could then go from footy or soccer or cricket to ice skating, to bowling, it was pretty much in a brilliant location for the northern part of the state who have two major PT points into Melbourne;

North Melbourne
Spencer St / Southern Cross

And then they made the walk into concrete, then they walled the concrete off with back to back apartments and building works to create a cold, dark area that leads to cold grey steel to match the cold dark grey concrete and it's goddamn depressing since as I stated, the waterfront, at night is gorgeous. You barely hear the city just the other side, you effectively then go from the hustle and bustle of 2-3 blocks from Burke St mall, down a bridge to gorgeous serenity and they ruin it with building works and then wonder why people hate it and had stopped coming in such numbers.

They're 20 years too late to bulldoze it and pick somewhere else, Eddies plan whilst it has merit, is late, won't do a thing now since you're only servicing the southern areas (melb central, flinders, Turning Richmond into a major hub) and the east west links to these stations and would be hubs.

Also, in Eddies world since he's not paying for Etihad and we, as an original tenant are, if Etihad got sold the money would come to all of us tenants and not the AFL or him to then use on another stadium, because in Eddies world that's how equalisation works, he would then have to beg us for the money which we would begrudgingly say "sure" and then bring up at every opportunity to call him and the Pies unfortunate for even asking. So that it even came from Eddie is a bit rich despite even having merit in some regard.

 

[plugger66]

If they redevelop the new stadium. It will cost a fortune and the government and AFL will do some deal where the public pays and a private operator gets all the profits for 20 years or until the roof falls in. The loan will need to be repaid and the operator will want to pay a stipend only. It's how PPPs work. The public pays and the operator runs it badly and takes all the money with no real outlay. The AFL will expect tenant clubs to pay down the loan so they can look good on paper.

It will cost a fortune but the AFL will also have around a billion dollars. All debts will be paid and they will still have 900 million. Clubs wont be paying any loans, the AFL would. Anyway it wont happen. Its all to hard with so many other sports being inconvenienced.

 

[RoundCubic]

They're 20 years too late to ..... pick somewhere else

 

[RoundCubic]

It will cost a fortune but the AFL will also have around a billion dollars. All debts will be paid and they will still have 900 million. Clubs wont be paying any loans, the AFL would. Anyway it wont happen. Its all to hard with so many other sports being inconvenienced.

AFL will just wait 20 years when they can make 10 billion from the land after south bank and fishermans bend is full

 

[StFly]

AFL will just wait 20 years when they can make 10 billion from the land after south bank and fishermans bend is full

Not particularly, the mayors office want it gone as it basically "cuts off" Melbourne from the Docklands, more so than say gridlock traffic down the Monash does, but Melbourne has grown to need it since effectively sports had and have been feuding with the MCC for access to the MCG, and since the AFL closed Waverly which is proven to be a decision for the then and there as opposed to the future sprawl, the AFL want Etihad and need Etihad to then go and launch with all clubs solvent and strong provided they are run by decent admin.

 

[plugger66]

Not particularly, the mayors office want it gone as it basically "cuts off" Melbourne from the Docklands, more so than say gridlock traffic down the Monash does, but Melbourne has grown to need it since effectively sports had and have been feuding with the MCC for access to the MCG, and since the AFL closed Waverly which is proven to be a decision for the then and there as opposed to the future sprawl, the AFL want Etihad and need Etihad to then go and launch with all clubs solvent and strong provided they are run by decent admin.

Waverley had to go. No transport and it was cold and wet and would have needed millions to update. And grounds should be in the suburbs these days anyway. You need public transport access.

 

[Grav]

Rockville Park in Toowoomba would be ideal, about an hour & a half to Brissie (when the new by-pass is built) twenty minutes to Wellcamp Airport, who will be doing direct flights to Melbourne for you interstate supporters, only ten minutes to a coffee shop & to top it all off, about forty minutes to my place. Win win I say, bring it on.

 

[StFly]

Waverley had to go. No transport and it was cold and wet and would have needed millions to update. And grounds should be in the suburbs these days anyway. You need public transport access.

It was in the corridor of growth in the west, the first aspect of growth is to map transit, so in effect, in models of what was going up in the area there would have been transport since Waverly would have been the hub to draw it directly to it.

It was more desirable than Etihad for anyone living north of the CBD.

You want cold and wet, Princess Park / Optus Oval. Waverly was massive, it was a behemoth of a stadium that if still standing today would have been, arguably slightly less than the G in the regard that it would be held.

Princess Park, you'd be pissing in the wind and watching it freeze to the hand rails. Sure the lights would stay on and it might not catch on fire, but it's still a shithole.

 

[plugger66]

It was in the corridor of growth in the west, the first aspect of growth is to map transit, so in effect, in models of what was going up in the area there would have been transport since Waverly would have been the hub to draw it directly to it.

It was more desirable than Etihad for anyone living north of the CBD.

You want cold and wet, Princess Park / Optus Oval. Waverly was massive, it was a behemoth of a stadium that if still standing today would have been, arguably slightly less than the G in the regard that it would be held.

Princess Park, you'd be pissing in the wind and watching it freeze to the hand rails. Sure the lights would stay on and it might not catch on fire, but it's still a shithole.

Couldn't give a stuff about princes park. It isn't an AFL ground. We need 2 grounds and obviously the city is the best place. It would have cost millions to fix up. It wasn't any good for corporates. I don't get your point about the west or north as the ground was in the east.

 

[RoundCubic]

Not particularly, the mayors office want it gone as it basically "cuts off" Melbourne from the Docklands, more so than say gridlock traffic down the Monash does, but Melbourne has grown to need it since effectively sports had and have been feuding with the MCC for access to the MCG, and since the AFL closed Waverly which is proven to be a decision for the then and there as opposed to the future sprawl, the AFL want Etihad and need Etihad to then go and launch with all clubs solvent and strong provided they are run by decent admin.

Football stadiums usually have a 30-40 year lifespan without major renovations (Astrodome was closed in 2008 going to be turned into a park) In 20-30 years Etihad would be due for demolition or major redevelopment at that point the AFL would sell the land to developers for a huge amount and move to another site.
It will likely be part of a future redevelopment of Melbourne Terminus as the gov in 2030-2040 moves the freight port to Geelong area and Etihad reaches the end of its life.
Already Sydney is overtaking Melbourne as a freight port because of the problem with having a freight port next to the city. Melbourne is also one of the only major world cities in the world that still has a major commercial freight port. Once fishermans bend is full with everything else heritage listed the rail and port works would be the only place to expand the CBD.
A future gov would try to triple or quadruple up on votes by removing an 'ugly' port, creating a parks and entertainment district with new stadium, creating a new industry/jobs in a regional area and starting a huge city construction project plus developers will give bucket loads of money to a party that adopts that policy. I think the current gov already have a Geelong/Werribee port plan.

 

[RoundCubic]

2035 South Kensington Stadium