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Criterium International has been removed from calendar in the future. ASO claimed congestion at the end of March.

Sad.
 
so this was the top female finisher in the recent El Tour De Tuscon

JB-pre1.jpg



ok, so thats not exactly her but it was once.

http://tucson.com/sports/local/tran...cle_2c7d291f-4376-57a6-9578-3831353032bc.html

i'm assuming she's now post op and had hormone treatment but i'm too lazy to research it that much.

granted this isnt exactly a ProTour event but i wouldnt be too pleased about competing against her if i was a woman.
also considering its not elite level i wonder how closely her hormone/test levels are monitored?
 
This is going to be one of the biggest issues facing sport in the next 5-10 years I suspect. On the one hand it seems ludicrous that a post op male can compete as a female when there is a clear physiological advantage, on the other hand morally how can you deny them the right to compete.

FWIW I agree with you but I also don't know how any woman could complain about it without being howled down as a bigot (assuming that's what a transgenderphobe would be called)
 
phantom13 said:
This is going to be one of the biggest issues facing sport in the next 5-10 years I suspect. On the one hand it seems ludicrous that a post op male can compete as a female when there is a clear physiological advantage, on the other hand morally how can you deny them the right to compete.

FWIW I agree with you but I also don't know how any woman could complain about it without being howled down as a bigot (assuming that's what a transgenderphobe would be called)
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i dont want to deny her the opportunity to compete but if gender isnt simply defined as either male or female anymore then perhaps sporting categories should be broadened as well.
as far as im concerned she was the first trans woman to cross the line not the first female.
 
PoopingHindi said:
i dont want to deny her the opportunity to compete but if gender isnt simply defined as either male or female anymore then perhaps sporting categories should be broadened as well.
as far as im concerned she was the first trans woman to cross the line not the first female.
Click to expand...

So
- I agree, you can't deny her, but if she identifies as a woman and has had the op and wants to compete as a woman how could you deny that? If she is given the option of competing as a Trans female or as a female and chooses the latter could you say no? If you assign her one she doesn't agree with its essentially the same as denying her being a woman, so where do you go then?
- the comment "as far as im concerned she was the first trans woman to cross the line not the first female." is exactly what I'm referring to, you can say whatever you like but if she doesn't agree with it (which given she clearly identifies as a female I'd say she would) where do you go from there?

To my mind it would go the following way
- female competitor complains about Trans athlete
- investigation
- ruling on eligibility

The issue is step 1 and step 3 would likely cause so much backlash that it would skew any reasonable finding
 
It's certainly a tricky subject. Wasn't there something similar in the athletics world a few years back, with a South African athlete - Castor Semenya?

On the one hand, you have to be fair to the athlete, and respect their right to whichever sexual identity they choose. On the other hand, you also have to be fair to the other athletes that they're competing against.

If one athlete has a genetic advantage (i.e. the genetic makeup of a male, competing as a female), then I'm not sure how that's being fair to the athletes who are genetically female.

In an ideal world, they could compete in a "trans gender" class, but there probably aren't enough competitors affected to make this a viable option.
 
phantom13 said:
- the comment "as far as im concerned she was the first trans woman to cross the line not the first female." is exactly what I'm referring to, you can say whatever you like but if she doesn't agree with it (which given she clearly identifies as a female I'd say she would) where do you go from there?
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fine, so let her compete as female then but make a non-trans category for everyone else.
you have to differentiate between the two or womens sport becomes a joke.
 
Vader said:
It's certainly a tricky subject. Wasn't there something similar in the athletics world a few years back, with a South African athlete - Castor Semenya?

On the one hand, you have to be fair to the athlete, and respect their right to whichever sexual identity they choose. On the other hand, you also have to be fair to the other athletes that they're competing against.

If one athlete has a genetic advantage (i.e. the genetic makeup of a male, competing as a female), then I'm not sure how that's being fair to the athletes who are genetically female.

In an ideal world, they could compete in a "trans gender" class, but there probably aren't enough competitors affected to make this a viable option.
Click to expand...

I can also see the pending s**tstorm of people screaming its discriminatory to force trans women to compete as trans women, anyone wanna be the voice of reason in that shrill screaming match, cause I don't.

PoopingHindi said:
fine, so let her compete as female then but make a non-trans category for everyone else.
you have to differentiate between the two or womens sport becomes a joke.
Click to expand...

I agree with your point, wholeheartedly, but as im saying in my above quote theres no way people will make it that simple. Look at the argument around restrooms for trans people, its a political and emotional nightmare.
 

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phantom13 said:
I agree with your point, wholeheartedly, but as im saying in my above quote theres no way people will make it that simple. Look at the argument around restrooms for trans people, its a political and emotional nightmare.
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i understand what you're saying but in this situation the morally outraged dont count...it really is that simple. we need to do whats right for the sport, not an individual or a particular subset of people. surely administrators will realise this.

im all for equality but sport is not life.
sport has been separating people based on gender, age and ability since forever and hopefully will continue to do so.
 
QS said:
Sagan. B2B rainbows. What a ******* star. Hopefully he makes the decision to try his hand at GC before he finishes.
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he does go uphill well. he can hammer a prologue with the best.

Claudio Cecchini told Cancellara if he lost 10kgs he could win the Tour.

Wiggins and Cancellara were about the same max weight and same height. That is Brads pursuiting/team pursuiting max weight at the Olympics, be about 192 80kgs.

Cancellara infinitely better rider than Wiggins.

Sagan is about 183cm and about 77kg at his heaviest, for Tour of Cali he would have dropped close to 7lbs. he was a bit lighter.

AICAR and lipotropin.
 
PoopingHindi said:
i understand what you're saying but in this situation the morally outraged dont count...it really is that simple. we need to do whats right for the sport, not an individual or a particular subset of people. surely administrators will realise this.

im all for equality but sport is not life.
sport has been separating people based on gender, age and ability since forever and hopefully will continue to do so.
Click to expand...

It really isn't even remotely close to being that simple, I for one wish it were.

I completely agree with the sentiment that a separate category be made for the good of the sport but I can also completely understand a Trans woman not wanting to compete under that category because its discriminatory (which it absolutely is).

The argument "its what weve always done" doesn't really apply here because this is a relatively new issue (the surgery and hormones weren't even really available until a few decades ago).

Like I said I can see this becoming a real issue for all sports relatively quickly and I think its gonna be a s**tstorm for all involved when it does.
 
Like I said I can see this becoming a real issue for all sports relatively quickly and I think its gonna be a s**tstorm for all involved when it does.[/QUOTE]
PoopingHindi said:
i understand what you're saying but in this situation the morally outraged dont count...it really is that simple. we need to do whats right for the sport, not an individual or a particular subset of people. surely administrators will realise this.

im all for equality but sport is not life.
sport has been separating people based on gender, age and ability since forever and hopefully will continue to do so.
Click to expand...

phantom13 said:
It really isn't even remotely close to being that simple, I for one wish it were.

I completely agree with the sentiment that a separate category be made for the good of the sport but I can also completely understand a Trans woman not wanting to compete under that category because its discriminatory (which it absolutely is).

The argument "its what weve always done" doesn't really apply here because this is a relatively new issue (the surgery and hormones weren't even really available until a few decades ago).

Like I said I can see this becoming a real issue for all sports relatively quickly and I think its gonna be a s**tstorm for all involved when it does.
Click to expand...

I cannot see it being an issue.

trans people, will never achieve a critical mass to make it an issue.

because, to compete in high level drug tested competition, it presumes this trans person, has such innate talent and work ethic to achieve.

lets leave aside the hormones for this instance, which are part of a PED subset class, they should not be taking them and also competing. This may seem a contradiction, because I have been on record that everyone* is taking them when they compete at pro level.

*rhetoric

It is a very minor price to pay, in the scheme of things, not to be able to compete in such high level sport. The Caster Semenya case is a parculiarly tricky case, which I have not done enough study on to come to a sound position.

This, otoh, easy, they cant compete under this new trans gender. They need to compete under the original gender without any hormone supplements. Or just compete in a rec league, where your competitors are aware of your status, and where winning is not the arbiter of the competition.

As soon as the competition involves competitors in a new gender, as soon as the arbitrary imprimatur of the 'win' is decided, where your competitors have also worked towards this arbitrary objective, I cannot see how you can compete against them with the enhancement of your original sex and natural hormones, or even the hormones you are taking in transition to a new gender and sex. I see this as pretty straightforward, and have no need to invest more of my time in this quandary that is anything but.

and even if it hit critical mass, my position stays. Even if athletes like Martina Navratilova, and the Decathlete who won the gold medal in about 1976 decathlete Bruce, Kaitlyn Jenner, would have transitioned to a new sex, I see it as not possible they competed under the new, or the original sex. They made the decision then, in this hypothetical.
 
Orange Agent said:
Never used it I cant stand trainers but everyone raves about it for winter time. There is a lot of alternatives around now as well depending on what type of trainer and other equipment you have. Worth a read. https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/11/trainer-apps-guide.html
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just a little hint... Zwift was not the reason Matt Hayman won Roubaix after his clavicle...


he had worked for others for 15 years, this was his moment... think about the Jan Ulrich 2 + 2 moment. He prolly rides for 15 years underarmed, he rides against others on the rocket fuel just being on 2 stroke and doing all the work. He may have used zwift, but he brought a different calibre to the gun-fight on the cobbles.
 
blackcat said:
doing all the work. He may have used zwift, but he brought a different calibre to the gun-fight on the cobbles.
Click to expand...

this meant to say, this caveat should have been....

doing all the work for others as a domestique, hammering away into the wind and protecting others in echelons...

in about 2005 Paris Nice, and Rabobank lost their sprinter in one of the preparation races or training, I think the sprinter was the guy who rode for USPS, and then he was working as a DS for Sky... I cant be bothered googling the guy, I am not thinking Freire, or Friere, the other guy... not Van Duyk, but something like that, in his final year with USPS this guy won about 4 races in one month or two months late in the season

anyway, Hayman, he was the designated sprinter for Rabo, he showed how fast he was, he just did not have the positioning or crazy dare devil like care to eat asphalt.... when Aaron Kemp was one Liberty Seguros in his last year before he went to Astana for a year or two.

I think a German Gerolsteiner rider was winning most of the sprints, (only prolly 2 field kicks at PN)... but Hayman showed in the last 200metres, he had more speed than anyone else, than all the other fastmen. I knew if he had a free shot at the finish at the velodrome in Roubaix, he was in with a fighting shot.

And after 265kms, it is all about what you have left in your legs anyway, and not who is the fastest. And there is not much of a slipstream if you are getting in someones wheel in the last 300metres in the velodrome. I reckon you need to lead it out on the boards in Roubaix, but you need to measure your effort over that last 1000 metres, and then from 300 dont rely on a bunch sprint slipstream and the sprint "peel" which can see someone who sprints for the win in a bunchie, and leads out from 200, then finish 10th.
 
blackcat said:
anyway, Hayman, he was the designated sprinter for Rabo, he showed how fast he was, he just did not have the positioning or crazy dare devil like care to eat asphalt.... when Aaron Kemp was one Liberty Seguros in his last year before he went to Astana for a year or two.
Click to expand...
I think I was thinking of[sic] steven de jongh
but I think I mentioned a USPS rider who won sprints in 2004ish, that was Van Heeswjik


I think a German Gerolsteiner rider was winning most of the sprints, (only prolly 2 field kicks at PN)... but Hayman showed in the last 200metres, he had more speed than anyone else, than all the other fastmen. I knew if he had a free shot at the finish at the velodrome in Roubaix, he was in with a fighting shot.
Click to expand...
that guy woulda been david kopp, who never really got many results in the div1 peloton
 
The King! said:
Anyone used zwift much and is it worth bothering to set up?
Click to expand...
I use it over winter, probably a couple of times a week. Really love it, I ended up getting a Tacx Vortex from the UK for about $450 and it works a treat. Handy for brick sessions too, just jump off in the garage, chuck on running shoes and out on the road, closing the garage door behind you!
 
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