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bedford

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Wayne Schwass had a fair crack at the AFL today about their lack of support . He is so wrong it is in all forms of life and he shouldn't mouth off for his own business. it's a life issue , just like drugs , it's all out in the open now.
 

caesar88

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Wayne Schwass had a fair crack at the AFL today about their lack of support . He is so wrong it is in all forms of life and he shouldn't mouth off for his own business. it's a life issue , just like drugs , it's all out in the open now.
Agreed. The AFL ****s up a lot but there's only so much they can do until more players get to a point where they can be more open about it. A few are, but still not enough. How are Gil & co supposed to do anything to curb the issue if they only know of about 5% of the cases that are probably out there? Unfortunately it's up to the players to decide whether they want to be open about their struggles or not
 

Heeney2Franklin

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Jose sacked doubt he cares tho nice 30m payout.

EPL is absolutely ruthless compared to AFL 1 or 2 bad seasons and poof your gone.
 

BloodySwan

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Jose sacked doubt he cares tho nice 30m payout.

EPL is absolutely ruthless compared to AFL 1 or 2 bad seasons and poof your gone.
Not comparing apples with apples at all, 1 bad season in the EPL means a loss of millions in revenue. For a club like Man Utd that means dropping out of the Champions League the next season. You only need to look at what happened to Leeds Utd to see the difference in missing the Champions League when you've pumped so much money into your club. Very hard to climb back out of the depths once you've fallen, Man Utd would most likely not fall down to the Championship but the biggest club in the world wants more than 6th.

In saying that Man Utd have made some poor decisions in management contracts lately. Moyes would still be on his original contract at Man Utd despite being sacked in 15!
 

BloodySwan

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Agreed. The AFL ****s up a lot but there's only so much they can do until more players get to a point where they can be more open about it. A few are, but still not enough. How are Gil & co supposed to do anything to curb the issue if they only know of about 5% of the cases that are probably out there? Unfortunately it's up to the players to decide whether they want to be open about their struggles or not
The AFL dictates conversations within clubs. It's like saying why hasn't an AFL player come out as being gay but when there's no support for such a thing why would they? I'm sure many players will support their friend but many will not and it's up to the clubs and players to build an environment where this is acceptable. The same with mental health, they need to lead by example. For a job where the club dictates what the players do 90%+ of the time depression and mental health is very much their responsibility.

Also there's a cap being put in place on coaches, facilities, etc. If you've only got so much money to spend on your players well being what are you going to spend it on, better physios or the best psychologists? Clarkson wanted mental health to not fall under this cap but the AFL isn't so keen
 

caesar88

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The AFL dictates conversations within clubs. It's like saying why hasn't an AFL player come out as being gay but when there's no support for such a thing why would they? I'm sure many players will support their friend but many will not and it's up to the clubs and players to build an environment where this is acceptable. The same with mental health, they need to lead by example. For a job where the club dictates what the players do 90%+ of the time depression and mental health is very much their responsibility.

Also there's a cap being put in place on coaches, facilities, etc. If you've only got so much money to spend on your players well being what are you going to spend it on, better physios or the best psychologists? Clarkson wanted mental health to not fall under this cap but the AFL isn't so keen
But you can have the best resources imaginable around someone and they may still just not feel OK to speak out. It’s the individuals choice. I know plenty of guys in their 20s who have told their close friends about their struggles, but would rather suffer in silence than take the necessary actions that could help them. Then there are those who have been given support, who have sought professional help and been open about it, yet who still struggle. It’s not as simple as revealing it to the world, getting the help you need, and then just getting better.

There’s pretty good precedence for blokes who come out about their problems. Look at Buddy, Cloke, Boyd, Fasolo etc. All have come out and said their club provided great support, and gave them whatever time and space they needed. They’ve then been welcomed back into the public eye with compassion and support. So I don’t think the AFL has been that bad when it comes to creating an open and safe environment. But they can’t just fabricate more mental health cases just so they seem more accepting. Unfortunately it’s the individuals themselves that need to speak up and create the environment themselves.
 

Vin Rogue

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Wayne Schwass had a fair crack at the AFL today about their lack of support . He is so wrong it is in all forms of life and he shouldn't mouth off for his own business. it's a life issue , just like drugs , it's all out in the open now.
Given how players are managed, it is hard to believe that nobody at the Roos noticed any changes in Majak Daw. Psych health should be high on the agenda at every Club and it should be the Club's doctor's primary responsibility. Devise a programme and monitor it just like they do skin folds and heart rate and muscle mass and body weight. Poor psych health stole Buddy from us in the 2015 finals series and possibly threatened an early end to his footy career. Wayne Schwass suffered hugely from depression and is a keynote speaker for Beyond Blue. I would not be so harsh in calling him out for bagging Majak Daw's "employer." You make it sound like because it is all out in the open, that Clubs and the AFL can do no more. Whilst players attempt suicide , clearly there is more that can been done. The AFL can always try to do better in protecting players from mental issues which might afflict them.
 

bedford

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Given how players are managed, it is hard to believe that nobody at the Roos noticed any changes in Majak Daw. Psych health should be high on the agenda at every Club and it should be the Club's doctor's primary responsibility. Devise a programme and monitor it just like they do skin folds and heart rate and muscle mass and body weight. Poor psych health stole Buddy from us in the 2015 finals series and possibly threatened an early end to his footy career. Wayne Schwass suffered hugely from depression and is a keynote speaker for Beyond Blue. I would not be so harsh in calling him out for bagging Majak Daw's "employer." You make it sound like because it is all out in the open, that Clubs and the AFL can do no more. Whilst players attempt suicide , clearly there is more that can been done. The AFL can always try to do better in protecting players from mental issues which might afflict them.
I know for a fact the AFL and clubs do heaps these days and we are one of the leaders. Schwass I felt was grandstanding.
 

Vin Rogue

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I know for a fact the AFL and clubs do heaps these days and we are one of the leaders. Schwass I felt was grandstanding.
Schwotter may have been - but he has earned the right to make that call. He has been there. Anything to keep the spotlight on a very savage affliction. The black dog stalks too many - and if not diagnosed and handled with sensitivity and support, can be a very lonely, alienating and ultimately lethal experience. May the Swans continue to be leaders in supporting players who need help and assistance with depression, rejuvenating the life spark and self belief.
 

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bedford

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Schwotter may have been - but he has earned the right to make that call. He has been there. Anything to keep the spotlight on a very savage affliction. The black dog stalks too many - and if not diagnosed and handled with sensitivity and support, can be a very lonely, alienating and ultimately lethal experience. May the Swans continue to be leaders in supporting players who need help and assistance with depression, rejuvenating the life spark and self belief.
Maybe some on here like all walks of life suffer mate.
 

RobbieK

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Maybe some on here like all walks of life suffer mate.
No doubt that is true, but I fail to understand why that means the AFL couldn't and shouldn't do more.

Society as a whole needs to do more - that needs to come from government, from businesses, from individuals etc. The AFL clearly has things it can do too. Currently player welfare positions are under a salary cap, so it makes sense to discuss whether that limits the amount of help available to players.

There is a lot of work done on player welfare in the AFL and that is commendable, but that work is done because it is a particularly difficult environment for people to work in. There are very high demands on fitness and diet, there is a lot of public scrutiny, all it takes is for one bad accident to end a career... this is a high stress situation, it is inevitable that this will result in mental health issues. The prevalence of drug use amongst players is reflective of this - drug use becomes a means of temporarily escaping the pressure.

None of that is to say that that the AFL is to blame for what happened with Majak nor is it to say that the AFL hasn't increasingly done a good job at dealing with mental illness openly in the last few years (Buddy, Grundy, Goldstein...) nor is it to say that this is not a problem that the whole community faces. But the AFL does have a duty of care to the players and if more can be done I think it should be done. I don't think you can say "it is all out in the open now" like there is a mission accomplished here. There is still stigma attached to mental illness and there are still barriers to people seeking help. If there are AFL rules that create additional barriers, such as limits or penalties on clubs spending money on welfare staff or psychologists, then it makes sense for those barriers to be removed.
 

bedford

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No doubt that is true, but I fail to understand why that means the AFL couldn't and shouldn't do more.

Society as a whole needs to do more - that needs to come from government, from businesses, from individuals etc. The AFL clearly has things it can do too. Currently player welfare positions are under a salary cap, so it makes sense to discuss whether that limits the amount of help available to players.

There is a lot of work done on player welfare in the AFL and that is commendable, but that work is done because it is a particularly difficult environment for people to work in. There are very high demands on fitness and diet, there is a lot of public scrutiny, all it takes is for one bad accident to end a career... this is a high stress situation, it is inevitable that this will result in mental health issues. The prevalence of drug use amongst players is reflective of this - drug use becomes a means of temporarily escaping the pressure.

None of that is to say that that the AFL is to blame for what happened with Majak nor is it to say that the AFL hasn't increasingly done a good job at dealing with mental illness openly in the last few years (Buddy, Grundy, Goldstein...) nor is it to say that this is not a problem that the whole community faces. But the AFL does have a duty of care to the players and if more can be done I think it should be done. I don't think you can say "it is all out in the open now" like there is a mission accomplished here. There is still stigma attached to mental illness and there are still barriers to people seeking help. If there are AFL rules that create additional barriers, such as limits or penalties on clubs spending money on welfare staff or psychologists, then it makes sense for those barriers to be removed.
Why do you have to always reply with war and peace, seriously what is your role and maybe back to that other thread . If you haven't been through it personally you have no idea.
 

RobbieK

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Why do you have to always reply with war and peace, seriously what is your role and maybe back to that other thread . If you haven't been through it personally you have no idea.
Four paragraphs, none longer than five lines, is "War and Peace"?

If you have a problem with what I just wrote how about you just address the substance of it?

I suffer from depression. I know all about it. This is a topic I care about.
 

Deccas

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But you can have the best resources imaginable around someone and they may still just not feel OK to speak out. It’s the individuals choice. I know plenty of guys in their 20s who have told their close friends about their struggles, but would rather suffer in silence than take the necessary actions that could help them. Then there are those who have been given support, who have sought professional help and been open about it, yet who still struggle. It’s not as simple as revealing it to the world, getting the help you need, and then just getting better.

There’s pretty good precedence for blokes who come out about their problems. Look at Buddy, Cloke, Boyd, Fasolo etc. All have come out and said their club provided great support, and gave them whatever time and space they needed. They’ve then been welcomed back into the public eye with compassion and support. So I don’t think the AFL has been that bad when it comes to creating an open and safe environment. But they can’t just fabricate more mental health cases just so they seem more accepting. Unfortunately it’s the individuals themselves that need to speak up and create the environment themselves.
I think both with homosexuality and health and coping here, its got only a little to do the the AFL and more to do with masculinity. Obviously sport, and men's sport in particular, is a highly masculine space, which means all the baggage that goes with needing help, or the "less than a real man" crap put on homosexuality manifests in this space. As an organisation the AFL can do some work to break down this stuff, but it realistically needs to break down at a social level (which I believe it is, masculinity is understood pretty differently across generations) before the AFL instituion fundamentally changes.

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caesar88

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I wrote 12 coherent sentences. I'm sorry if that goes against this board's style guide.

I have no idea why you are beating up on Schwass for arguing that the league can do better. He is right, it can.
Of course they can but he started going on about the egos and crap and that’s when it became more about accusatory grandstanding than about the actual issue here. I don’t doubt the sincerity in his words and that they’re all coming from a good place, but to me his messaging missed the mark. A player has attempted to take his own life, and in the wake of it, Schwass’ focus is on all the stuff the AFL does wrong and could do better in. Instead, it should’ve been an experienced and respected figure in the sport reaching out to his younger peers and using his own experiences (which he’s been very open about) to connect and resonate with them. Just my opinion but I think that tone could have been more effective than just calling out the AFL’s shortcomings.

Trying to pin-point targets to direct your anger and shock towards when something like this happens gives in to that inaccurate idea that there are people to blame for one’s depression or anxiety. That’s not always the case. Sometimes nobody is to blame and so focusing the attention on the people at the centre of it should be the priority, not those on the outside looking in.
 

RobbieK

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Of course they can but he started going on about the egos and crap and that’s when it became more about accusatory grandstanding than about the actual issue here. I don’t doubt the sincerity in his words and that they’re all coming from a good place, but to me his messaging missed the mark. A player has attempted to take his own life, and in the wake of it, Schwass’ focus is on all the stuff the AFL does wrong and could do better in. Instead, it should’ve been an experienced and respected figure in the sport reaching out to his younger peers and using his own experiences (which he’s been very open about) to connect and resonate with them. Just my opinion but I think that tone could have been more effective than just calling out the AFL’s shortcomings.

Trying to pin-point targets to direct your anger and shock towards when something like this happens gives in to that inaccurate idea that there are people to blame for one’s depression or anxiety. That’s not always the case. Sometimes nobody is to blame and so focusing the attention on the people at the centre of it should be the priority, not those on the outside looking in.
I don't think saying that the AFL can do more is blaming the AFL for what happened. It is just saying that they can do more.
 

bedford

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I don't think saying that the AFL can do more is blaming the AFL for what happened. It is just saying that they can do more.
They do so much now , do you really think they don't. I have no problem with your posts , just don't need to read so much personally. Schwass didn't need to go on like he did and as I said the problem is in all parts of society and calling out the AFL was over the top. Daw's issues were addressed by his club , but what does Schwass think the AFL should do when someone has a spat with their girlfriend. Let's hope he gets well . Also this stuff needs to be on the society page. Good luck.
 

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Thereabouts Wolfy. Ebert was still a class player. Cornes did not seem to like the physical stuff in his short time with the lollers.
By that time Cornes was 31, his body was shot and he was on retirement money. I saw him play at his best and he didn't mind the physical then. It was only later that he had problems. He did return to SA and play 46 games more but as playing coach of lowly South Adelaide.

He then coached Glenelg to the '85 &' 86 premierships. Cornes at his best, between 19 and about 29 was sensational. He took the marks that counted. Wonderful marks. He also played Ruck rover not key forward as Barass wanted to play him. He was too light for a key forward even in SA. Kerley never played him there. He rested in the forward pocket.

Ebert was only a shadow of his former mastery when he played VFL. He was a wonderful player who would turn games by taking control. He was a match winner.

But the man I believe to be the greatest player ever to lace up never played VFL. Barry Robran. He was considered by Jezza and every Vic that ever played against him to be the greatest player ever. He nearly played VFL but he got home sick travelling thd 30 kilometres to Adelaide let alone going to Melbourne. Robran was a quiet farmer from the Adelaide Hills District. I saw him run the length of the field twice in one day and kick goals on both occasions. He was not playing a bottom side he was playing the top side. Ebert, Kerley, Barassi, Matthews etc consider him the best player they ever played or coached against.

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Wolftone

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Not comparing apples with apples at all, 1 bad season in the EPL means a loss of millions in revenue. For a club like Man Utd that means dropping out of the Champions League the next season. You only need to look at what happened to Leeds Utd to see the difference in missing the Champions League when you've pumped so much money into your club. Very hard to climb back out of the depths once you've fallen, Man Utd would most likely not fall down to the Championship but the biggest club in the world wants more than 6th.

In saying that Man Utd have made some poor decisions in management contracts lately. Moyes would still be on his original contract at Man Utd despite being sacked in 15!
Now the trouble with Man United compared to other EPL clubs was highlighted in a doco some 10 or so years ago. MU are perennially in huge debt. One or two bad seasons could see them go to the wall. Even when they were top for so long they carried huge debt issues. Owners will only put so much in and then seek the debt ridden club on to someone else.

The doco was a bit of a shock as I thought due to them being the greatest team in the EPL they would be incredibly solvent. Their gears, sells better than any other team and brings in literally billions. All their merchandise is a gold mine. But the reality is they recruit the best and pay huge contracts to both players and coaches. They do not develop like they used to. Other clubs do the development and they hold the chequebook out.

So the reality with many of the big soccer clubs worldwide is that it is becoming increasingly more difficult to balance the books and the majority of them carry huge debt. This is because to fall down the ladder is to tempt bankruptcy. So they continue to go into greater debt

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Vin Rogue

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No doubt that is true, but I fail to understand why that means the AFL couldn't and shouldn't do more.

Society as a whole needs to do more - that needs to come from government, from businesses, from individuals etc. The AFL clearly has things it can do too. Currently player welfare positions are under a salary cap, so it makes sense to discuss whether that limits the amount of help available to players.

There is a lot of work done on player welfare in the AFL and that is commendable, but that work is done because it is a particularly difficult environment for people to work in. There are very high demands on fitness and diet, there is a lot of public scrutiny, all it takes is for one bad accident to end a career... this is a high stress situation, it is inevitable that this will result in mental health issues. The prevalence of drug use amongst players is reflective of this - drug use becomes a means of temporarily escaping the pressure.

None of that is to say that that the AFL is to blame for what happened with Majak nor is it to say that the AFL hasn't increasingly done a good job at dealing with mental illness openly in the last few years (Buddy, Grundy, Goldstein...) nor is it to say that this is not a problem that the whole community faces. But the AFL does have a duty of care to the players and if more can be done I think it should be done. I don't think you can say "it is all out in the open now" like there is a mission accomplished here. There is still stigma attached to mental illness and there are still barriers to people seeking help. If there are AFL rules that create additional barriers, such as limits or penalties on clubs spending money on welfare staff or psychologists, then it makes sense for those barriers to be removed.
Perfectly reasonable responses to an issue that is exploding with numbers diagnosed like never before.
 

Vin Rogue

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Why do you have to always reply with war and peace, seriously what is your role and maybe back to that other thread . If you haven't been through it personally you have no idea.
Out of order Bedford. Robbie K's response was well reasoned and did not attack you personally. People can have an opinion on this matter without having been through it. I don't suffer from it, but my daughter does and it scares the living hell out of me, because as a parent I feel so bloody useless in protecting my daughter. You seriously believe that what you have written is all that needs to be said on the matter? Because if so, that says a whole lot more about you than it does the issue. You had a crack at Schwotter, and since then you have a dug a deeper hole with very few words - wear the consequences. If you have no wish to contribute positively, and accept that others think differently and have the same right to their view as you do to yours, then do what others do and simply ignore what you might consider either piffle or excessive. No need to play the man.
 
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