Analysis General Offseason Discussion

Vin Rogue

Team Captain
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Posts
557
Likes
502
AFL Club
Sydney
Of course they can but he started going on about the egos and crap and that’s when it became more about accusatory grandstanding than about the actual issue here. I don’t doubt the sincerity in his words and that they’re all coming from a good place, but to me his messaging missed the mark. A player has attempted to take his own life, and in the wake of it, Schwass’ focus is on all the stuff the AFL does wrong and could do better in. Instead, it should’ve been an experienced and respected figure in the sport reaching out to his younger peers and using his own experiences (which he’s been very open about) to connect and resonate with them. Just my opinion but I think that tone could have been more effective than just calling out the AFL’s shortcomings.

Trying to pin-point targets to direct your anger and shock towards when something like this happens gives in to that inaccurate idea that there are people to blame for one’s depression or anxiety. That’s not always the case. Sometimes nobody is to blame and so focusing the attention on the people at the centre of it should be the priority, not those on the outside looking in.
Fair comments Caesar. But if we focus on anger management strategies, building self esteem, sharing frustration and disappointment, welcoming the support of others - these are life skills that AFL Clubs should be encouraged to pursue. Building healthier and more resilient psych health - like Kirky's yoga centerdness. Not about blame...about growing our ways to cope with a mental illness.See Shwotter's anger for what it is. A man whose struggle continues.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

bedford

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Posts
27,852
Likes
15,818
Location
Lake Oval
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
SMFC,PMFC.
Out of order Bedford. Robbie K's response was well reasoned and did not attack you personally. People can have an opinion on this matter without having been through it. I don't suffer from it, but my daughter does and it scares the living hell out of me, because as a parent I feel so bloody useless in protecting my daughter. You seriously believe that what you have written is all that needs to be said on the matter? Because if so, that says a whole lot more about you than it does the issue. You had a crack at Schwotter, and since then you have a dug a deeper hole with very few words - wear the consequences. If you have no wish to contribute positively, and accept that others think differently and have the same right to their view as you do to yours, then do what others do and simply ignore what you might consider either piffle or excessive. No need to play the man.
Sorry , I didn't mean to . RK's response was fair , I just couldn't be bothered reading it all and that's my call. Maybe it should n
be in the thread for society , religion etc. I had a crack at Schwass , yes I I explained my reasons as that it's everywhere in society and clubs like ours to more than enough to help. To say I dug a bigger hole is absolute bullshit and it's not on FWITW I've always found you a good an fair poster .
 

Vin Rogue

Team Captain
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Posts
557
Likes
502
AFL Club
Sydney
Sorry , I didn't mean to . RK's response was fair , I just couldn't be bothered reading it all and that's my call. Maybe it should n
be in the thread for society , religion etc. I had a crack at Schwass , yes I I explained my reasons as that it's everywhere in society and clubs like ours to more than enough to help. To say I dug a bigger hole is absolute bullshit and it's not on FWITW I've always found you a good an fair poster .
Accept your reasoning and dare I say it....fair points made in your defence. I choose to disagree with the hole, but that's okay. The sun will still come up tomorrow. I am just happy that we can have this conversation without belittling or demeaning each other. FWIW - this thread fits the bill rather than religion??? society??? Footy related in the offseason. Schwotter is the Sydney - North link and the mental illness link. Majak Daw would appear to be the victim of his own demons. Hope he is able to find a way to build a life that is fulfilling.
 

caesar88

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Posts
9,096
Likes
9,880
AFL Club
Sydney
Fair comments Caesar. But if we focus on anger management strategies, building self esteem, sharing frustration and disappointment, welcoming the support of others - these are life skills that AFL Clubs should be encouraged to pursue. Building healthier and more resilient psych health - like Kirky's yoga centerdness. Not about blame...about growing our ways to cope with a mental illness.See Shwotter's anger for what it is. A man whose struggle continues.
They would all be pretty crucial priorities I would’ve thought, but the AFL and the clubs can introduce these strategies to the players but it will still be up to the players alone to implement them. Unfortunately the nature of depression and anxiety can sometimes cloud your ability to use these strategies, and that sense of ‘no way out’ lingers. I’ve had friends go to counseling, received treatment, medication, you name it. They seem to be on the up and in a better place, and then it only takes one lapse, one bad day to take them to a place where they think jumping off a bridge is their only option. That’s why it’s such a horrible thing, because you could have millions of dollars put into curbing it by a corporation like the AFL, and it still wouldn’t make a different in some cases.

I just think in the case of footballers, there needs to be a greater sense of comradery and unity, and it starts with the players themselves.
 

Bloodied52

Premium Platinum
Joined
May 24, 2017
Posts
3,960
Likes
3,965
Location
Old South Grandstand
AFL Club
Sydney
The World Health Organisation did some research years ago that showed prevalence of MH Illnesses such as bipolar disorder and schizophrenia was almost uniform across all populated continents and classes.

MH Illnesses such as these and clinical depression are a fact of life Treatments for these illnesses, let alone diagnosis, are still blunt instruments. The science has a long way to go as does community understanding.

None of us know the circumstances that led to Daw being found at the bottom of the bridge. Maybe he was pushed, maybe he jumped. Maybe he was off the air or he had made a considered lucid judgement about his life. Only he and the clinicians working with them know that.

Meanwhile I don't mind Wayne "the Truth" Shwatter having a crack. At this time people with MH issues need as many advocates as they can get.
 

RobbieK

Club Legend
Joined
Aug 20, 2009
Posts
1,751
Likes
2,306
Location
Berlin
AFL Club
Sydney
They would all be pretty crucial priorities I would’ve thought, but the AFL and the clubs can introduce these strategies to the players but it will still be up to the players alone to implement them. Unfortunately the nature of depression and anxiety can sometimes cloud your ability to use these strategies, and that sense of ‘no way out’ lingers. I’ve had friends go to counseling, received treatment, medication, you name it. They seem to be on the up and in a better place, and then it only takes one lapse, one bad day to take them to a place where they think jumping off a bridge is their only option. That’s why it’s such a horrible thing, because you could have millions of dollars put into curbing it by a corporation like the AFL, and it still wouldn’t make a different in some cases.

I just think in the case of footballers, there needs to be a greater sense of comradery and unity, and it starts with the players themselves.
In the end people in trouble need to want to help themselves, no doubt. This is true when it comes to mental health issues, when it comes to drug addiction, etc. You can offer as much help as you like, but if a person doesn't want to get better then there is only so much that you can do.

Ultimately getting out of a mental health hole requires the willing actions of the individual who is suffering. The problem is that that person has to make that decision and undertake those actions while simultaneously being under the influence of the illness they are trying to beat, which can make it seem very hard if not impossible for them. While you would hope that footballers themselves would be active in creating a supportive culture, they need support to do that. The players can help to create an environment in which everyone is open with each other about what they are going through, where people can feel free to share without judgment, where problems can be nipped in the bud before they become more serious, but there will be times when the kind of help a player needs is more than their fellow players can provide.

I don't think anyone here thinks that we can create some foolproof institutionalised system that eradicates mental health problems or makes it impossible for a person to make the decision to harm themselves, though. That's really just not possible. When I say I want the AFL to do more what I am saying is that I want them to continue to do things that will make it easier for players to make the decision to seek help when they need it and, when they do, that the kind of help that they need is readily available. That it ultimately won't be enough help for some people is not a reason to abandon attempts to help which will make a difference to many others.
 

caesar88

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Posts
9,096
Likes
9,880
AFL Club
Sydney
In the end people in trouble need to want to help themselves, no doubt. This is true when it comes to mental health issues, when it comes to drug addiction, etc. You can offer as much help as you like, but if a person doesn't want to get better then there is only so much that you can do.

Ultimately getting out of a mental health hole requires the willing actions of the individual who is suffering. The problem is that that person has to make that decision and undertake those actions while simultaneously being under the influence of the illness they are trying to beat, which can make it seem very hard if not impossible for them. While you would hope that footballers themselves would be active in creating a supportive culture, they need support to do that. The players can help to create an environment in which everyone is open with each other about what they are going through, where people can feel free to share without judgment, where problems can be nipped in the bud before they become more serious, but there will be times when the kind of help a player needs is more than their fellow players can provide.

I don't think anyone here thinks that we can create some foolproof institutionalised system that eradicates mental health problems or makes it impossible for a person to make the decision to harm themselves, though. That's really just not possible. When I say I want the AFL to do more what I am saying is that I want them to continue to do things that will make it easier for players to make the decision to seek help when they need it and, when they do, that the kind of help that they need is readily available. That it ultimately won't be enough help for some people is not a reason to abandon attempts to help which will make a difference to many others.
All very true, and I'm sure the AFL will continue to make it a focus. Let's not forget several cases like Buddy, Fasolo, Cloke, Boyd, Balic etc have all praised the AFL both as a corporation and as a community for the support they received, and they are just the publicised cases. There are probably more whose issues haven't reached the public. I just wasn't a fan of Schwass' delivery, which to me seemed more like finger-pointing than educational or informative.
 

TheMase

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Jul 20, 2001
Posts
16,035
Likes
8,587
Location
Sydney
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Sydney Swans
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/dec/20/aflw-announces-four-new-teams-to-join-2020-season

Four new AFLW teams for 2020, but the Swans (along with Hawthorn, Essendon and Port Adelaide) continue to remain without a team.
I noted the other day that it was said we take over the lease of the the site of our new training facilities etc this year but won’t be ready until 2020.

Therefore perhaps too much risk for us to join in 2020. I suspect that we will push in the next wave of teams.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

caesar88

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Posts
9,096
Likes
9,880
AFL Club
Sydney

RobbieK

Club Legend
Joined
Aug 20, 2009
Posts
1,751
Likes
2,306
Location
Berlin
AFL Club
Sydney
Fair, I didn't see Mase's comment til afterwards. Do all the other clubs share grounds between the men's and women's teams?
Here is the draw for the coming season: http://www.afl.com.au/womens/matches

You can see that there are a few games at AFL grounds (a few at the Docklands and Geelong play at Kardinia Park), but most are at smaller grounds.

GWS play a game at Drumoyne, no reason we couldn't play there I suppose. Henson Park would be another option. But both of those would simply not have the facilities that the better Victorian or South Australian suburban grounds, particularly those used as training bases for AFL teams or used by VFL/SANFL teams.
 

TheMase

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Jul 20, 2001
Posts
16,035
Likes
8,587
Location
Sydney
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Sydney Swans
It’s likely as much if not more about training facilities. The new development will house an elite training facility but likely won’t be ready until 2020 at the earliest. It’s cramped enough at the SCG as it is without adding a second squad to use the facilities.
 

Vin Rogue

Team Captain
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Posts
557
Likes
502
AFL Club
Sydney
They would all be pretty crucial priorities I would’ve thought, but the AFL and the clubs can introduce these strategies to the players but it will still be up to the players alone to implement them. Unfortunately the nature of depression and anxiety can sometimes cloud your ability to use these strategies, and that sense of ‘no way out’ lingers. I’ve had friends go to counseling, received treatment, medication, you name it. They seem to be on the up and in a better place, and then it only takes one lapse, one bad day to take them to a place where they think jumping off a bridge is their only option. That’s why it’s such a horrible thing, because you could have millions of dollars put into curbing it by a corporation like the AFL, and it still wouldn’t make a different in some cases.

I just think in the case of footballers, there needs to be a greater sense of comradery and unity, and it starts with the players themselves.
You have a pretty good handle on it. It's a disease that controls the afflicted. Those not afflicted have critical roles in attempting to keeping them afloat and steering them safely. Ultimately you are right, they have to want to save themselves - we just have to hang on to them long enough so that they can reach that decision.
 

Vin Rogue

Team Captain
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Posts
557
Likes
502
AFL Club
Sydney
In the end people in trouble need to want to help themselves, no doubt. This is true when it comes to mental health issues, when it comes to drug addiction, etc. You can offer as much help as you like, but if a person doesn't want to get better then there is only so much that you can do.

Ultimately getting out of a mental health hole requires the willing actions of the individual who is suffering. The problem is that that person has to make that decision and undertake those actions while simultaneously being under the influence of the illness they are trying to beat, which can make it seem very hard if not impossible for them. While you would hope that footballers themselves would be active in creating a supportive culture, they need support to do that. The players can help to create an environment in which everyone is open with each other about what they are going through, where people can feel free to share without judgment, where problems can be nipped in the bud before they become more serious, but there will be times when the kind of help a player needs is more than their fellow players can provide.

I don't think anyone here thinks that we can create some foolproof institutionalised system that eradicates mental health problems or makes it impossible for a person to make the decision to harm themselves, though. That's really just not possible. When I say I want the AFL to do more what I am saying is that I want them to continue to do things that will make it easier for players to make the decision to seek help when they need it and, when they do, that the kind of help that they need is readily available. That it ultimately won't be enough help for some people is not a reason to abandon attempts to help which will make a difference to many others.
Very well expressed RobbieK. Shows understanding of the problem and the clear vision to continue working to provide pathways for those who are in desperate need of them yet who still fail to access them.
 

bedford

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Posts
27,852
Likes
15,818
Location
Lake Oval
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
SMFC,PMFC.
In the end people in trouble need to want to help themselves, no doubt. This is true when it comes to mental health issues, when it comes to drug addiction, etc. You can offer as much help as you like, but if a person doesn't want to get better then there is only so much that you can do.

Ultimately getting out of a mental health hole requires the willing actions of the individual who is suffering. The problem is that that person has to make that decision and undertake those actions while simultaneously being under the influence of the illness they are trying to beat, which can make it seem very hard if not impossible for them. While you would hope that footballers themselves would be active in creating a supportive culture, they need support to do that. The players can help to create an environment in which everyone is open with each other about what they are going through, where people can feel free to share without judgment, where problems can be nipped in the bud before they become more serious, but there will be times when the kind of help a player needs is more than their fellow players can provide.

I don't think anyone here thinks that we can create some foolproof institutionalised system that eradicates mental health problems or makes it impossible for a person to make the decision to harm themselves, though. That's really just not possible. When I say I want the AFL to do more what I am saying is that I want them to continue to do things that will make it easier for players to make the decision to seek help when they need it and, when they do, that the kind of help that they need is readily available. That it ultimately won't be enough help for some people is not a reason to abandon attempts to help which will make a difference to many others.
What field are you in , I cant read all that mate.
 

RobbieK

Club Legend
Joined
Aug 20, 2009
Posts
1,751
Likes
2,306
Location
Berlin
AFL Club
Sydney
What field are you in , I cant read all that mate.
I have post-graduate degrees in philosophy. I try to keep what I write as clear and straightforward as I can, but no doubt that isn't always successful. I know I have a tendency to include some long sentences with lots of subordinate clauses in them. I'll work on keeping things shorter.
 

bedford

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Posts
27,852
Likes
15,818
Location
Lake Oval
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
SMFC,PMFC.
I have post-graduate degrees in philosophy. I try to keep what I write as clear and straightforward as I can, but no doubt that isn't always successful. I know I have a tendency to include some long sentences with lots of subordinate clauses in them. I'll work on keeping things shorter.
All good Rob .
 

connolly

Club Legend
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Posts
1,926
Likes
2,835
Location
General Santos City, Mindanao
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Persis Solo, Davao Aguilas FC
Fair, I didn't see Mase's comment til afterwards. Do all the other clubs share grounds between the men's and women's teams?
Its interesting that the old excuse against women's employment in industry used by recalcitrant employers in the past was "we don't have the amenities". In the Australian steel industry that was soon cleared up when the first open transsexual in Australian steel making history demanded to use women's showers. BHP got it sorted very quickly. Bless her.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Posts
10,786
Likes
12,258
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Dallas Cowboys/Trail Blazers
Moderator #374
Bill Simmons wacky hypothetical time:
It's the offseason of 2019, Swans have missed the finals for the first time since 2009, it feels like rebuild time. Sensing this, Buddy Franklin - who was 3 years left to go on his contract - decides he wants a trade back to Hawthorn. What do you ask from Hawthorn in return for the soon to be 33 year old?
 
Joined
Jun 3, 2007
Posts
11,394
Likes
17,300
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
The Exers
Moderator #375
Bill Simmons wacky hypothetical time:
It's the offseason of 2019, Swans have missed the finals for the first time since 2009, it feels like rebuild time. Sensing this, Buddy Franklin - who was 3 years left to go on his contract - decides he wants a trade back to Hawthorn. What do you ask from Hawthorn in return for the soon to be 33 year old?
Picks 52, 70 and 88 for picks 54 and 72 plus Franklin

That's what Hawthorn traded a similar-aged Sam Mitchell for (5x B&F winner, Brownlow medallist), and he wasn't burdened with a 3m+ salary commitment
 
Top Bottom