General TSL Talk

Discussion in 'TSL Board' started by tassie_footy, Sep 4, 2011.

Put it out there
  1. Kingpin

    Kingpin Brownlow Medallist

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    Gotta wonder too with Burnie being the only club on the coast now, how it will affect them financially. I'm not familiar with their crowd numbers but you'd have to think that the only home match that would draw a decent crowd would be against Devonport.
    None of the southern sides would take many supporters to West Park, Launceston has a very small following so that would leave only North Launceston.
     

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  2. Hawkboy

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    I agree with you that the balance is wrong. I'm sure Burnie don't want more home games than the 9 they are entitled to but they wouldn't want any more travelling than they have had previously so how AFL Tas handle that will be interesting to see. If Burnie don't stay in the league it will be basically a southern based competition with a couple of Northern sides thrown in which is not what you would call a statewide league. Despite what AFL Tas are saying things are not looking good.
     
  3. Hawkboy

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    You are spot on there, the games against Devonport always brought a few more supporters through the gate but the most important game for both the coastal clubs was always the Good Friday Coastal derby which alternated each year as these games always drew a pretty good crowd.
     
  4. madmug

    madmug Brownlow Medallist

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    Although I've been criticised for 'knocking' AFLtas, it always been just too easy. Its so sad how pathetic they've been for near 20 years or more. They'd say they are always busy. They probably are. But how productive have they been? What have they actually achieved? If they'd done as many, or some, positive things for Tassie footy then we'd say so. But!

    The fact is I & others who point at them are right. They are the paid 'professionals in all this. Clubs are generally run by volunteers. They rarely have the resources to do everything 'expected' of them. How many resources have AFLTas wasted in all this time? The Devils, the mess Western Storm/Hawks/Prospect turned out to be, the mess of Hobart/North Hobart, putting money into a council owned ground at Kingston & now with Devonport. It just makes AFLTas look like the amateur buffoons we accuse them of being.

    The problem is, under them we've seen so many clubs die & fail badly. How is that allowed to happen? Time after time after time.

    Do they follow the clubs? Do they understand & offer any help with business plans? Do they ever act before a problem arises? It doesn't look like it. Indeed most problems seem of AFLTas's own making.

    So poor management, poor finances apart, At the very least, If we are ever to have a viable TSL, we need NWC x2, North x2, South x4. Yet we've never even had that balanced structure.
     
  5. Gibbke

    Gibbke Premiership Player

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    Northern superpowers...heh. The irony is fingerlickin' good. Don't recall anyone grizzling down south in 1986 when it was just 2 northerners v a 6-team southern league who reneged on an assurance they would cut 2 of their sides for a 4-2-2 split...a 2018 GF between 16-1-1 Launceston and 16-1-1 North would be good in front of the whiny/empty background of Bellerive...

    But then, in all seriousness, we need to sort this mess out. How about a return to regional, and an expanded intrastate comp? Instead of a 6-game H&A, expand it to take up most of the season, with a single GF. 12 rounds gives you 4 games between each region (18 games seems to be the magic number of rounds for footy comps these days, but that would be serious overkill in a 3 team league), and leaves gaps in the roster, which would be filled up by AFL matches. A big game every week in Tasmania, which in between AFL fixtures would give scouts something to watch more often than a single rep game, and would diffuse the lopsidedness of the comp when SW clubs return to their regions (North Launceston v Bracknell...shudder...).

    There are a multitude of opinions on how it should look in this state, but be real - the AFL teams aren't going anywhere, the AFL isn't going to give us any more money, and clubs can't afford the SW league in its entirety - if you're not North Launceston, Clarence, Glenorchy or North Hobart, you will eventually sink under the financial strain, or be told you're sinking under the financial strain and get axed anyway! A glossy wallpaper finish like the Devils covers over the massive cracks that appear underneath, and only caters to the elite while still not attracting the big bucks that our own AFL side might - and when that elite is transformed into an underage academy, as happened in 2007-08, there is nothing in Tasmanian footy to get a boner for...

    It would be great to have a longstanding traditional SW comp, where everyone at some stage can build a dynasty and grudges endure through the ages in front of monster crowds and hype, but we aren't building that and the AFL isn't lifting a finger to help it. We need to restore some of the pride all Tasmanians used to feel with their footy, to keep the older ones happy and the younger ones fanatically interested, and we also need to think outside the box while exploiting what we have that is unique to the state. A Tasmanian season with a dozen rep games starts to look not like a typical Australian Rules season, but more like rugby union, and the support and power bases would shift in line with that. North Launceston might supply 12 members of the Northern side, but because of that, on the same weekend its game against Bracknell might be a bit closer! The rep teams would also have a chance to bond and gel and develop more enduring game plans, which would add another dynamic to intrastate footy. You might also see a spinoff benefit here, where the Tasmanian side gets some pretty worthy extra match practice in concentrated teams ahead of its annual game against the SNEWAFL East-Western Division, or whatever they call themselves...
     
  6. madmug

    madmug Brownlow Medallist

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    Made up teams dont have volunteers or supporters. Just ask Western storm hawks Prospect. A competition of 'Rep' teams will attract no one. Clubs just made up of a senior team struggle to survive. Clubs of seniors, seconds, thirds & juniors have a football pathway, club culture & a social life. Thats a big part of a clubs survival. (& increasingly including a womens team or two). AFLTas seem incapable of understanding what makes a club tick, what gives it resilience & longevity. They are stuck in the pathway model as if that's all that matters.

    Sorting this mess out would do us fine. The problem is who? AFLTas aren't watching. Clearly they didn't have a clue. I doubt their interested. They'll limp along then blame the clubs again. They forget we've seen it all before.

    Considering how stupid they look because of this situation, I hope they now show some care & interest for a change.

    Whatever the answer, 5 south, 2 north 1 NWC isn't it.
     
  7. Gibbke

    Gibbke Premiership Player

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    A rep team is run by the association it represents, not off the street volunteers. Rep games always attract crowds and interest, and historically the intrastate series was always big. They died off when they became inconsistent, and the one of the last two decades were a bit token. Restore it to the NTFA, NWFL and STFL and the interest will build. It won't be like two or three generations ago, but it will be better than anything is now. Rep footy ensuring a presence of big matches throughout the season in between spasmodic AFL games, a more level playing field at club level (this will always be the hard bit), and all clubs intact and able to compete with reduced costs. Players with more opportunities to be watched in a format that caters to the short attention spans of mainlanders. Like I said, they need to look elsewhere for answers - maybe the growing profile of RL and RU and the way they do things could help out here...
     
  8. madmug

    madmug Brownlow Medallist

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    Clubs are run by volunteers. Many are hard working, quite capable in many areas & give years of service to their clubs. They rarely just turn up off the street. Given their close association with their club, why would they suddenly put their time into some new entity that isn't in their community? The strength of clubs is self interest in the club & community. Thats what needs to be nurtured. Interclub parochialism is what drives things. Using it correctly is key.

    The NTFA, NWFU, TFL intrastate series were great games to watch. I remember Vin Waite playing on Peter Hudson with some 8,000 watching at the home of football, NHO, in about 1976. But that was all before AFL on tv, the internet, weekend shopping, social media etc etc.

    Sure we'd all like those footy days back again. But it'd be simpler just to get a functional TSL. I just wish the AFL had the ability to do that. Working closer with clubs. Getting the structure right, just once. Understanding what makes a club tick. Realising the pathway thing is only possible if the other things are sorted. Talking with people, not AT them.

    It just seems that the people paid to run the game, don't understand clubs! I mean they are the basis of our game after all! AFL administration appears to be run on arrogance. I'm not sure what other abilities they have. AFLTas seem to be made up of a combination of talking heads & disasters.

    If they ever prove this wrong, I'll sing their praises. But right now, yet again, it appears that I & the public, won't have any reason to. The fact that anyone still cares is a miracle in itself. :(
     
  9. Still Kickin

    Still Kickin Team Captain

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    I heard a whisper that the state development manager at AFL Tas went way over his budget this year!
     
  10. Gersman

    Gersman Draftee

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    Clarence have picked Troy Cunliffe from Lindisfarne whos won the last two Wm Leitch Medals in the SFL. Good get for the Rooboys.

    Glenorchy are still fighting the hopeless Glenorchy council over the shoddy workmanship done to the new clubrooms and offices at their ground.
    Apparently its an absolute ballsup and the council have stuffed them around bigtime over the whole project, even tried to kick them off King George V if they complained.
    The goalposts are still up out there even during the cricket season because the council sold off the equipment that is required to pull them down. Shambles.

    I keep hearing whispers North Hobart are in pretty bad financial disarray and have got no players [well not a lot anyway].
    Launched a debt busters campaign to try and clear up the issue and with thw way the state leagues going with small crowds, won't be long before they are in the Southern Footy League I reckon.
    Heard another whisper that they'll be having to share the ground with their old enemy Hobart Tigers for a few games next year as the TCA is miles behind schedule in having the oval resurfaced. Walking my dog up there about a week ago and stuck my head in through the carpark fence for a squizz and I cant see them being on there for the rest of the year either.
    Kingston have picked up a fair few from North Hobart. Their DL coach left to go to Kingston and took a heap with him.

    Any other rumours?
     
  11. Kingpin

    Kingpin Brownlow Medallist

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    Screenshot_2017-12-21-18-45-04-1.png They are saying they have a debt of about $110,000 at present.
     

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  12. Kingpin

    Kingpin Brownlow Medallist

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  13. Kingpin

    Kingpin Brownlow Medallist

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    The talk around the HFC at the moment is that there will be quite a lot of disruption this year with regard to training and usage of the venue.
    Hobart's first home game was due to played against Cygnet on the opening day of the SFL season but it's likely that that game and maybe two others will have to be moved to North Hobart Oval.
    The venue won't be available until at least mid-May at the earliest and that's pending with weather conditions.
    Obviously training venues have required mass alterations with both Hobart and DOSA. It will be well worth the disruption though to get a better venue.
    I've got pictures of what it should eventually look like over the next few years.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Currently looks like as of about two weeks ago:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  14. madmug

    madmug Brownlow Medallist

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    Pledges are nice but long term its about trading. The club needs to have more functions for a start. They really need the lift put in to the Doug Plaister stand so the facility can be better used. I'm sure thats all in the mix of the new leadership group. At least I hope so.
     
  15. madmug

    madmug Brownlow Medallist

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    Speaking to my Magpie mate, things he said align with this & the article in yesterdays Mercury. It seems their have been some 'suspicious' behaviours, even more than just impressions of shear incompetence that we got from what we've heard about this building. It seems some financial investigation over the council employees actions & inactions are in the offing.

    This is a big deal. nearly $9mil spent & its not 'fit for purpose'. MM says their is a stench about the councils behaviour over this. I guess we may find out one day. The usual thing is that it'd be swept under the carpet. Maybe not in this case. Hard to say, but I hope not. If people had sticky fingers in that council I hope they cop it.

    Maybe this'll help us clean up all council's sloppy governance & 'suspicious' behaviour across the state.
     
  16. Still Kickin

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    Tell me again what small crowds have to do with the demise of the TSL? I watched SFL and Old scholars this year and i'm pretty confident that the crowds were no different. At the end of the day, people dont go to the footy much anymore for a number of reasons. Thats just reality.
     
  17. Gersman

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    Because they'd all go broke eventually just like last time!
    Higher running costs involved with TSL.
    Travel costs, salary cap higher etc etc.
    Crowds, same as the lower leagues are shit, makes it harder to create that income to stay solvent. Harder to get sponsors now.
    AFL Tas need to give every club a salary cap of 400-500k every season to mske the TSL work properly and attract the best players both local and mainlanders or else it'll be just as lame as it was in the late 90s when the same teams were winning just about every year and no one was going then either!!
     
  18. Hawkboy

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    I have to agree with you about the salary cap. I think even if each TSL club could get 250k per year instead of the paltry 100k they get now it would make all the clubs very viable. I would like to know the total cost of running AFL Tas. in this state, I'm sure it would be considerably more than the 900k the clubs get between them. The competition is at the crossroads now and it should be clear to AFL Tas. that there are only 2 options left for them and they are get some increased funding for the clubs or sit back and watch the competition collapse. It makes no sense for them to keep on saying the clubs have licences until 2023 as that doesn't mean a thing as Devonport proved just recently.
     
  19. madmug

    madmug Brownlow Medallist

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    I think AFL Tas get something over $3mill from HQ. They get $500k from the state Government. They also keep pretty well all the sponsorship they get. So their budget would be over $4mill. The TSL clubs get nothing compared to clubs interstate.

    The $100k is not enough compared to what it costs to play in the TSL. I'm sure some clubs have under performed in how they've raised & spent their funds. But they cant afford the quality management they really need. They can't attract players with the salary cap. Its just a bludi amateurish mess created by AFLTas.
    As usual they'll blame the clubs. Thats what incompetent tradesmen do, blame their tools. After the first TSL which imploded, all AFLTas could do was blame the clubs. It wont work this time.
    They stuffed South Launy, North Hobart. They weren't even looking at Devonport when everyone knew they were in strife.
    The only club which looks in reasonable nick financially seems to be NL. They recruit & maintain players & make money from AFL games & bingo. With only 2 clubs in Launy now, they'll stay on top for a while yet. That helps Launy too.
    G recruited a VFL standard coach so they must be ok despite the mess the council have made of the new KGV building
    NH have to rebuild so have the tins out. I'm told Lauderdale are just floating. I'd suggest Clarence are too, as they haven't recruited much for a few years.
    K dont seem to recruit so just plod along. They lose the odd kid to the AFL but get nothing for it.

    This mess of a TSL is not sustainable. AFLTas seem incapable of doing anything to help anyone, but themselves. A car, a paying job & golf on wednesdays seem to be their main concerns
     
  20. Kingpin

    Kingpin Brownlow Medallist

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    Yep I would agree that to make it a goer, you'd need to create a viable salary cap which at least matches, say for example, the VFL or WAFL or SANFL. It's in all reality just a waste of time otherwise because on such a small cap you won't entice players to make the committment required.
    They might as well rebirth a fulltime Devils VFL side and a full time Mariners TAC Cup side and consolidate the "talent pathways" program to two sides.
    People often say that they should never have abandoned the old tri-regional format of pre-1986 but what's often forgotten is that the NWFU, NTFA and the TANFL were all suffering from plummetting attendances (roster games especially) for over ten years leading up to the formation of the Statewide League.
    The Grand Finals in each area used to be a very important day on each region's sporting and social calendar each year and so would always drag in the crowds.
    TFL Statewide League was an awesome concept and was so good to watch in its first five/six years and it is such a shame that the recession smashed the state so hard in 1991 that led to it's demise eventually.
    As you mentioned about how broke the clubs were, from the end of 1997 to early 1998 every club was in the gun financially and so was the TFL.
    1997/1998 TFL Debts
    Tasmanian Football League: $2,200,000
    Burnie Dockers: $735,819
    Devonport Football Club: $709,067
    New Norfolk District Football Club: $431,858
    Glenorchy District Football Club: $267,897
    North Hobart Football Club: $232,607
    North Launceston Football Club: $167,570
    Clarence District Football Club: $153,441
    Southern Districts Football Club: $80,000
    Total Debts: $4,978,259


    Clubs Exiting TFL after 1997
    Hobart Football Club: $460,000
    Sandy Bay Football Club: $190,000
    South Launceston Football Club: $80,000
    Launceston Football Club: $90,000
    Total Debts: $820,000
    Combined Debts of 1997/1998 Clubs: $5,798,259


    Horrendous!

    With the current TSL, my club participated for five years (2009-2013) and lost about $300,000 in that time, this past year we actually made a $2,000 profit in the SFL with significantly less sponsors and very poor crowd attendances (certainly a lot smaller than our crowds in the TSL).
    It's very tough on the clubs and the people that run them these days.
     
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  21. madmug

    madmug Brownlow Medallist

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    What is really tough is the crap AFLTas expect from clubs. The pressure & expectation put on the mainly volunteers to keep the clubs going on shoestring budgets is unrealistic. Really the clubs should be telling AFLTas, if you want a TSL, then bloody well pay for it or were out before we go belly up. Its clearly unsustainable the way its going.

    Talking to club people & volunteers will soon tell you how the clubs are going. Less people having to do more things with less resources.

    And its also the same with other sports. A mate in soccer & he tells me a similar story. Their state league is made up of maybe 3 clubs who can win because of money, the rest are battling amateur clubs at best. Soccer Tas just live in the same Ivory tower.
     
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  22. Chattswood

    Chattswood Senior List

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    Sadly, I can no longer see a scenario where crowd numbers or sponsorship return to TSL football to the level required.

    The comp will only survive via the drip feed from HQ. They will not increase expenditure to level required IMO as no incentive or perceived benefit to do so.

    They want 'pathway' and I am fine with that. The days of ex AFL players coming down here on top $$ and leaving are over and I think its a good thing. We now have people here for the right reasons.

    Any additional funds should go towards junior programs to get more kids to TSL standard. There should be a talent pathway into the TSL and this is the type of thing where any investment should occur.

    The comp will (already has) naturally be for 18 - 25yos who are chasing the AFL/elite level dream either as a player or coach and/or those who want to be involved for a pittance.

    I believe the comp will survive and I hope it does. However it will be all run off the smell of an oily wrag for some time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  23. madmug

    madmug Brownlow Medallist

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    Ive said AFLTas should look to help clubs get experienced & qualified coaches as well as qualified fitness people. That is the very least they should be doing. After that looking at attracting club managers who can improve club business activities. The salary cap needs a boost. at least to $150k. Otherwise it wont exist at anything but very, low level. Indeed it will see more clubs fade away.
     
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  24. Kingpin

    Kingpin Brownlow Medallist

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    I maybe a little cynical Madmug but I wouldn't trust that lot to acquire me a gatekeeper.
    Remember the early years of TSL when tbey were insistent on all clubs having "CEO's".
    I'm not sure whether they still do that now but AFL Tasmania highly recommended three to us and virtually put them in place.
    One never attended a single game we played (he was playing SFL two's for another club as far as I recall and the rest of the time never went to games), another was suspected of being "a bit dodgy" (was never proven though) and the other got pulled up on a matchday driving the HFC club car pissed as newt by the fuzz and got arrested lol.
    Fair to say the strike rate wasn't all that good lol!
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
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  25. madmug

    madmug Brownlow Medallist

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    I guess we do know the record of AFLTas & employees. Maybe a guy by the name of Morrison rings a bell?? So I guess we write what we would like to see happen with our football given we did actually have some capable & trustworthy stewards of the game in control. Maybe showing care for the game, rather than themselves. Maybe.

    We cannot account for the 'governance' & 'behavioural' issues that seem to have beset the place over the last 20 years or so. Its just so disappointing.

    Indeed the management from the top has given cause for concern for all that time. Now with the arrival of the Cheesemaker, with deference to the classics, It seems that 'all of a sudden, nothing changed'. :(

    AFLTas remind me of a local council. Maybe Glenorchy council over the last few years. All self interest & no care for the punters. All ending up in a mess due to poor governance & maybe some other dubious financial & other behaviours.

    So we live in hope. As usual.

    For some reason we dont seem to get people who actually care.
     
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