Current Trial George Pell - Suppression Order Post Conviction *LIFTED

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Kurve

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If he has committed child sexual abuse then he should be punished for it. Where are the charges? What is the proof? There has been one charge been quashed, one case not proceeded with, one situation where he was naked in a public change room. You say you have personal knowledge which from my perspective absent that knowledge means it's rumour. I'm not driven by rumour. People's good character can be assassinated on it.

When a man is alone with a child and there are no witnesses to an abuse, do you automatically discredit their telling of what happened to them as rumour?

This is what you posted however, below and what I responded to

Interesting that the common theme is that decades later when he had reached a certain pinnacle in the Catholic Church it was then these things would surface.

I was saying that these things did not just surface as you suggested, complaints were being made about George Pell within the church for a long time
 

Angry Red Bull

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When a man is alone with a child and there are no witnesses to an abuse, do you automatically discredit their telling of what happened to them as rumour?

This is what you posted however, below and what I responded to



I was saying that these things did not just surface as you suggested, complaints were being made about George Pell within the church for a long time

So what are you saying? That there has been sexual abuse all along but he's just been lucky? Most of these priests get caught out because things come to light. Prevalence defeats them. Is he an exception in that regard? Why? What mechanism prevents his detection?
 

Kurve

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So what are you saying? That there has been sexual abuse all along but he's just been lucky? Most of these priests get caught out because things come to light. Prevalence defeats them. Is he an exception in that regard? Why? What mechanism prevents his detection?

Most priests don't get caught out.
 

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Kurve

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Ballarat where Pell was based for a long time, was notorious for paedophile priests and I heard a lot about what went on as a kid growing up, I had friends over there but the first time I got anything from within was at a summit on gang violence that was held at Father Bob Maguire's church. Around 2004 I think it was and not just one complaint.

Publicly, there's this ...

He said it himself in the 2013 documentary about his life: when you mess with the church, you are in trouble. In fact, he was a little more pointy about it. “You can see it through history. The Communists, the Nazi’s, they all came undone when they took on the Roman Catholic Church. That is where the real power in the world lies.” So when Father Bob Maguire (1934) opened the door to one of his parishioners in 2002 and let him in, his fate was basically sealed. The man told him he had been sexually abused by George Pell decades before. He asked the priest to help him get heard. “That is all I needed to be seen to be part of a process to bring George undone,” Bob mused years later. “I had to do it. I am the parish priest and this is my job.”

 

jason_recliner

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I analysed the case before his guilty verdict and thought it was comfortably not guilty. Ultimately 7 nil quashing by HC agrees with that. I don't for one second think he was guilty on the evidence. Being head of Catholic church makes him target because of their obfuscation and general weak handling of child sex abuse matters. Agree on that. Don't agree on his personal guilt.

Interesting that the common theme is that decades later when he had reached a certain pinnacle in the Catholic Church it was then these things would surface. There is genuine hatred in the community for Catholic response to child sex abuse. My mother even when we discussed Pell said he should go to jail even if innocent as the face of Catholic sex abuse evil. Wow. I don't discount that anti. Catholic Church sentiment colours opinions around Pell. I have my doubts
Your staunch defence of an accused child sex predator is not at all surprising, sadly.
 

Angry Red Bull

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Your staunch defence of an accused child sex predator is not at all surprising, sadly.

7 HC judges all agreed.

I don't DEFEND child sex abusers. I defend justice. The case against him wasn't adequate abd the HC concurred.

If however there IS a case he has to answer then I'd happily be first in line to condemn

You probably fail to understand the sensibilities in that distinction ....clearly beyond your reach

Our belief systems are the antithesis of each other. Thank goodness. I'd be loathe to think I'd ever agree with something coming out of your mouth
 
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Kurve

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7 HC judges all agreed.

Pell essentially had his conviction overturned and was released on legal technicality. If he wasn't Cardinal George Pell, spiritual adviser to Prime Ministers and head of Vatican finances, he wouldn't have got the matter anywhere near the High Court and he'd still be in jail. IMO.
 

Angry Red Bull

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Pell essentially had his conviction overturned and was released on legal technicality. If he wasn't Cardinal George Pell, spiritual adviser to Prime Ministers and head of Vatican finances, he wouldn't have got the matter anywhere near the High Court and he'd still be in jail. IMO.

For special leave to be granted to HC on any appeal there has to be an unresolved question of law. Without looking I don't recall what that was but without it you don't get special leave. To say he had it overturned on a technicality just isn't true. Most cases don't have special leave granted and only occasionally is there a 7 nil result. It was as conclusive as it could possibly be.
 

Kurve

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For special leave to be granted to HC on any appeal there has to be an unresolved question of law. Without looking I don't recall what that was but without it you don't get special leave. To say he had it overturned on a technicality just isn't true. Most cases don't have special leave granted and only occasionally is there a 7 nil result. It was as conclusive as it could possibly be.

The word I used was 'essentially' it was legal technicality that saw him out and which is true. I believe the victim/s, so did Father Bob.

This High Court appeal did not ask whether Pell committed the offences. It asked whether the two majority judges in the Victorian Court of Appeal, in dismissing Pell’s earlier appeal, made an error about the nature of the correct legal principles, or their application.

 

Angry Red Bull

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The word I used was 'essentially' it was legal technicality that saw him out and which is true. I believe the victim/s, so did Father Bob.

This High Court appeal did not ask whether Pell committed the offences. It asked whether the two majority judges in the Victorian Court of Appeal, in dismissing Pell’s earlier appeal, made an error about the nature of the correct legal principles, or their application.


The original appeal was on the basis that the the decision was not supported on all the evidence. The appeal was denied 2-1 (the one being the only criminal justice) as it was concluded the decision was "open" to the jury ie possible. Pell argued that that reversed the of onus proof of innocence which was the the legal question. On granting special leave they agreed there was that legal principle concurred that it did but then had to sit in jury's place in considering the merits of the case and unanimously resolved that the decision wasn't supported on all the evidence and was therefore quashed.

Pell didn't get off on a technicality. He got off because the decision was flawed and unsafe as not being supported on all the evidence
 

Kurve

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Pell didn't get off on a technicality. He got off because the decision was flawed and unsafe as not being supported on all the evidence

That's a technicality whatever way you want to cut it, argue with the law experts if you like but I'm comfortable with my view.
 

Angry Red Bull

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That's a technicality whatever way you want to cut it, argue with the law experts if you like but I'm comfortable with my view.

So 7 HC judges unanimously decide that the decision wasn't supported on all the evidence and you want to suggest that's a technicality? They are saying the jury got it wrong and so too FFC on appeal. No technicality. They are saying he is not guilty and that should have been the verdict on the evidence so they made it so.

When I looked at it all facts I formed the view it just didn't happen. Seems HC agreed
 

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Kurve

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So 7 HC judges unanimously decide that the decision wasn't supported on all the evidence and you want to suggest that's a technicality? They are saying the jury got it wrong and so too FFC on appeal. No technicality. They are saying he is not guilty and that should have been the verdict on the evidence so they made it so.

When I looked at it all facts I formed the view it just didn't happen. Seems HC agreed



You seem to want to elevate yourself to above the education and knowledge of the authors in the article I supplied that frame the overturning of the conviction and Pell's release as hinging on 'legal technicality'. Like you know better, just wow ... :$

Authors:
Mark Nicholas Bernard Thomas
Senior Lecturer, Queensland University of Technology

Ben Mathews
Professor, School of Law, Queensland University of Technology
 

Angry Red Bull

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You seem to want to elevate yourself to above the education and knowledge of the authors in the article I supplied that frame the overturning of the conviction and Pell's release as hinging on 'legal technicality'. Like you know better, just wow ... :$

Authors:
Mark Nicholas Bernard Thomas
Senior Lecturer, Queensland University of Technology

Ben Mathews
Professor, School of Law, Queensland University of Technology

You read the one issue and that limited to special l leave and didn't explain the decision then required after leave was granted. To get the full picture of what happened you always must go to initial jury decision then appeal then special leave and judgement based on special leave. Absolutely sure the author's know the full picture but they were focusing on one issue which you read as relating to the entirety. My opinion isn't inconsistent just elaborated.. Yes I can follow the legal process from judgement to appeal special leave then HC because I worked as advisor to on taxation. law for 25 years. The process is same. Nice attempt at put down though. Again.

Once special leave is granted it is solely to address the legal question to resolved this case whether was appropriate for an appellate court to reverse the onus of proof. Once there they could have just ordered a new trial or concluded and found there was judgement was appropriate despite the decision on the legal issue. Instead they resolved that the evidence wasn't enough. A quashing only happens when the criminal matter is unsafe and contrary to evidence otherwise they can order new trial. Quashing and release don't happen on 'tecnicalitiss'. They happen ONLY when it is overwhelming to restore a wrong decision. You realise that right?
 
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Kurve

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You read the one issue and that limited to special l leave and didn't explain the decision then required after leave was granted. To get the full picture of what happened you always must go to initial jury decision then appeal then special leave and judgement based on special leave. Absolutely sure the author's know the full picture but they were focusing on one issue which you read as relating to the entirety. My opinion isn't inconsistent just elaborated.. Yes I can follow the legal process from judgement to appeal special leave then HC because I worked as advisor to on taxation. law for 25 years. The process is same. Nice attempt at put down though. Again.

The authors did not just focus on one issue, the history of the case is there.

You'll find many of us in here have education in law, with experience in the courts and not beyond the ability to grasp complex legal processes and decisions.
 

Angry Red Bull

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Ok then. Are you suggesting yourself for that knowledge?

I read the summary judgements and followed the links to their logical conclusions. In the HC decision.

I will leave it there
 

Slartibartfast

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Ballarat where Pell was based for a long time, was notorious for paedophile priests and I heard a lot about what went on as a kid growing up, I had friends over there but the first time I got anything from within was at a summit on gang violence that was held at Father Bob Maguire's church. Around 2004 I think it was and not just one complaint.

Publicly, there's this ...

He said it himself in the 2013 documentary about his life: when you mess with the church, you are in trouble. In fact, he was a little more pointy about it. “You can see it through history. The Communists, the Nazi’s, they all came undone when they took on the Roman Catholic Church. That is where the real power in the world lies.” So when Father Bob Maguire (1934) opened the door to one of his parishioners in 2002 and let him in, his fate was basically sealed. The man told him he had been sexually abused by George Pell decades before. He asked the priest to help him get heard. “That is all I needed to be seen to be part of a process to bring George undone,” Bob mused years later. “I had to do it. I am the parish priest and this is my job.”

I have a number of friends who were boarders at Ballarat. They knew what happened , it was no secret but they just lived in fear of making a Statement to police. They understood the power of the church and Pell himself.

For posters to comment that where are the charges, where is the proof just lacks insight into what a victim of sexual abuse experiences after the event. To re traumatise oneself by making statements and being questioned by police then having to live through a court interrogation where what you say is assumed to be a fabrication causes untold stressand harm.
Then when the perpetrator is so powerful and is backed with an endless supply of money by one of the most powerful organisations in the world , these are things that make people walk away.
Abuse victims walk away from making charges when it is just a nobody perpetrator out of the shame and trauma that is incurred during the legal process but posters here expect victims to stand up to Pell and the Church without a moments thought , the expectation if it happened they would have gone to the police Is so naive And shows a distinct lack of empathy and understanding .
 

Slartibartfast

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The lawyers were able to cast a shadow over the evidence , thats all that happened.
Very hard for a historic crime to have evidence which convicts where it is someone’s word against another .
it was always going to be difficult to get a conviction.
 

HK_Hawk

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How do you know? I'm intrigued

Yeah I pretty much believe post Royal Commission that he became a target as the face of Catholic Church. Throw as much mud as possible at him and see what happens.

I would love to know from where and to whom that Austrac money transfer occurred. I think there was an agenda from overseas to get him and locally as face of Catholic Church. If you know something concrete other than. "standing nude in a change room with boys there" I'd love to hear it. I have an open mind
Yep, I’m sure there is a whole army of faking victims pretending old Pell touched them up. That’s such an old narrative, I would hope we have moved beyond that.

Let me just add… you’re a campaigner hiding behind the same BS that allows these people to do what they do with little consequences.
 

Angry Red Bull

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Yep, I’m sure there is a whole army of faking victims pretending old Pell touched them up. That’s such an old narrative, I would hope we have moved beyond that.

Let me just add… you’re a campaigner hiding behind the same BS that allows these people to do what they do with little consequences.

I was sent a list of 4-5 incidents 1 of which was investigated.and dismissed 1 where he was exonerated, and a couple where he was naked in a public changeroom. I DON'T support child sex abusers ( now for the second time) and IF he is one I'm first in line to kick the sh** out if him. I'm asked to take someone's word they know he is involved. Yet that person is unable to have even a modicum of objectivity in their behaviour then compelling me to consider veracity.

I'll give Pell the benefit of doubt.if that forces you or anyone to call me some name then I'll just have to wear that burden I'm afraid until another can prove it with evidence a little better than rumour......then again that's just me. Free world pile on indiscriminately with your baseless judgements wherever you like for whomever you like

The justice system should always err in favour of innocence. We don't send people away on the basis of suspicion. To have an innocent person in jail is always a demonstrably worse outcome than having a guilty person escape conviction. We have checks and balances to try and ensure things happen as they should. It's not always perfect but absent those checks and balances we as a society are no better than anarchy.
 
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Kurve

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I'll give Pell the benefit of doubt.if that forces you or anyone to call me some name then I'll just have to wear that burden I'm afraid until another can prove it with evidence a little better than rumour......then again that's just me.

In the eyes of the law Pell was eventually acquitted, that's all. I'd give benefit of any doubt to the kids first, the law can take a back seat.
 

Kwality

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So what are you saying? That there has been sexual abuse all along but he's just been lucky? Most of these priests get caught out because things come to light. Prevalence defeats them. Is he an exception in that regard? Why? What mechanism prevents his detection?

VicPOL has a long list of failed attempts to prosecute Pell - even advertised for victims.
 

Kwality

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In the eyes of the law Pell was eventually acquitted, that's all. I'd give benefit of any doubt to the kids first, the law can take a back seat.

People do tell lies, thats why there is an onus of proof.
We all know of wrongful conviction, miscarriage of justice. The system is not perfect.
 

Kurve

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People do tell lies, thats why there is an onus of proof.
We all know of wrongful conviction, miscarriage of justice. The system is not perfect.

It's extremely difficult for victims of sexual abuse to even talk about it due to the enormous sense of shame, add in fear of not being believed. They rarely if ever, lie about it and it can be expected with trauma particularly over time, that memory may be affected. Things might not always quite add up and if they don't, it isn't always reason to dismiss their account.

It's not a situation imo where anybody with half a brain would be celebrating for example 'yay, George was acquitted so he can take the kids swimming again'.
 

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